Help finding where my grandfather was born and lived in UK.

[ColinOntheIsland]

11 hours ago, PRC said:

 

The information given to the registrar / priest was whatever the individuals concerned wanted it to be - unfortunately as it was not necessarily verified. If bride or groom couldn't produce a birth certificate there was a simple declaration to sign with the usual penalties of fines & imprisonment, (plus of course with a church wedding, the mortal sin of lying to God) - but unfortunately the incidences of bigamy shows that there are those prepared to take the risk. Doesn't mean it applies, and William George may well have believed his father to be alive, even if he wasn't. As he was stated to be 24 he didn't need his parents permission to marry so there was little to be gained by lieing in connection with that - other than to amend surname to get things to tie up.

 

 

He could have, but standard commitments for a Regular were 12 years, (with a split between time actually serving 24/7 "in the colours" and a time in the reserves), for a Special Reservist 6 years, (although they could have opted for less), and for a Territorial Force man it was 4 years. Given that he was 24 and already serving with the 6th Battalion when he married, it's pushing it for him as anything other than a Territorial Force man to be time expired by the outbreak of the Great War and able to enlist in a Kitchener Army Battalion like the 6th.

 

To try and eliminate some of those possibilities I tried looking at men with nearby East Yorkshire Regiment service numbers to see if any patterns emerged. To be honest it's a bf a mixed bag. All I can assume is that some numbers went unused during the initial recruitment, and so were subsequently allocated to later recruits.

 

10422 Albert Dove subsequently 676452 Labour Corps.

Surviving Service Records shows enlisted for One Year with the Colours at Hull(?-tbc) on the 11th August 1914. He was a 28 year old married Labourer, born Hull. Posted to the 6th Battalion at Beverley on the 13th August 1914. Shown as being with the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force from the 30th June 1915 – but that may have been the date he sailed.

 

10423 John Coggin.

No surviving Service Records. Soldiers Died in the Great War records Killed in Action on the 22nd August 1915 in the Dardenelles with the 6th Battalion. He enlisted at Hull.

 

10424 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving service records for a George Bellamy who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at Hull on the 11th August 1914. A 29 year old married Labourer, born Hull, he had previously been a Special Reservist. Posted to the Depot 13th August 1914. Discharged from the 6th Battalion on the 7th October 1914 as not likely to become an efficient soldier.

 

10425 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving service records for a John Capeling who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at West Hartlepool on the 26th August 1914. A 21 year old Apprentice Rivetter, he was unmarried. He was posted to the 6th Battalion the same day. Discharged from the 6th Battalion on the 9th October 1914 as not likely to become an efficient soldier.

 

10426 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving service records for a Robert Joseph White who enlisted for One Year with the Colours at Hull on the 11th August 1914. A 23 year old Labourer, born Hull, he was unmarried. Joined the 6th Battalion at Beverley on the 13th August 1914. Deserted several times – the last on the 2nd January 1915. Received a 2 year prison term. Returned to the 3/6th Battalion from Aldershot on the 12th September 1916. Deserted again 25th October 1916.

 

10427 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving service records for a Daniel Jones who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at Tumble on the 10th September 1914. Aged 19 and a Miner, born Tumble, Carmarthenshire, he was unmarried. It’s not clear what Battalion if any he served with. Discharged on the 24th October 1914 as not likely to become an efficient soldier. The Officer who signed it off was the Lieutenant Colonel of the 6th Battalion.

 

10428 Augustine Fitzgerald, subsequently 377293 Labour Corps.

Surviving service records for Augustine Fitzgerald who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at Hull on the 11th August 1914. Aged 38, he was an unmarried Labourer, born Sculcoates, Hull. He stated he was currently with the 1st Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment. (He was actually discharged 31st January 1906 after 12 years service). Joined the 6th Battalion at the Depot 13th August 1914. Shown as being with the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force from the 30th June 1915 – but that may have been the date he sailed.

 

10429 No MiC match at the National Archive

 

10430 James Martin subsequently 182626 Labour Corps.

No surviving service records.

 

10431 William George Smith.

 

10432 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving one page service record for a Thomas Mackey who enlisted on the 8th September 1914 at Newcastle upon Tyne with the Northumberland Fusiliers. Aged 20 and a Hawker, he was born Newcastle upon Tyne. He was subsequently transferred to the East Yorkshire Regiment. He was discharged 3rd November 1914 under Army Order 137 of 1910.

 

10433 No MiC match at the National Archive

No surviving service records.

 

10434 William Clark subsequently 488964 Labour Corps or Samuel Littlewood.

Surviving service records for William Clark who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at Hull on the 11th August 1914. Aged 34 he was a married Ships Steward, born York.He had previously served in the 3rd West Riding Regiment – ended by purchase in 1904. He joined the 6th Battalion at Beverley on the 13th August 1914, was transferred to the 3rd Battalion on the 24th August 1914 and then back to the 6th on the 12th May 1915.

 

Silver War Badge Roll for Samuel Littlewood shows he enlisted 29th September 1914 – I suspect his service number is a typo.

 

10435 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving service records for James Groke who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at Hull on the 11th August 1914. Aged 23, he was an unmarried Labourer, born Sculcoates, Hull. He had previously served in the 3rd Battalion as a Special Reservist. He joined the 6th Battalion at Beverley on the 13th August 1914. Discharged from the 6th Battalion on the 27th October 1914 as not likely to become an efficient soldier.

 

10436 No MiC match at the National Archive

No surviving service records.

 

10437 Thomas Warriner.

No surviving service records.

 

10438 Sydney Thornton Milburn.

No surviving service records.

 

10439 No MiC match at the National Archive

No surviving service records.

 

10440 No MiC match at the National Archive

No surviving service records.

 

It would be nice to believe William George enlisted at Hull on the 11th August 1914 but there are just enough exceptions even amongst that small batch to make it less of an absolute.

And the other first impression was what a group of reprobates were in the recruiting office on that day. I haven't documented it all but most for whom there are surviving records appear to have had disciplinary issues. Robert White wasn't the only deserter - just the worst offender.

 

But as you can see, where men have previous military experience, any existing legal obligation to report for duty on the outbreak of war had expired.

 

 

Will do the maths, take another look at the Census records and get back to you on that one.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Wow Peter!!

Thank you so very much for all the hard work you have put into this on my behalf I truly appreciate all your efforts.

Can I assume that his service records did not survive? I ask because I pieced together his war movements only from the 'long, long trail' entries for the 6th & 12th East Yorks. I have his medal index card, register of soldiers effects and his CWGC info. I can't remember where I got his enlistment date of 27 Aug 1914 in Beverley from.

Thanks once more.

Regards

Colin

[PRC]

10 hours ago, ColinOntheIsland said:

Can I assume that his service records did not survive?

 

I tried a variety of search criteria and drew a blank. With a name like his it's easy to get swamped if you make the criteria too wide. There is always a chance that there is something, filed away in error in someone elses service record or with the key bits burnt off and so messing up the indexing. In those cases it only becomes obvious when you drill down into the detail, but I can understand why someone with many thousands to do wouldn't have taken the time when they were being added to a genealogy website.

 

10 hours ago, ColinOntheIsland said:

I can't remember where I got his enlistment date of 27 Aug 1914 in Beverley from.

 

You may still be right - there certainly seems to be some wiggle room looking at the other individuals in that sample.

 

So, we’ve already looked at a likely birth period for him if the age of 25 when he died on the 27th May 1916 can be assumed to be true. Firming it up a bit that would place his birth date within the period 28th May 1890 to the 27th May 1891.

 

The marriage ceritificate has him aged 24 on the 19th May 1915, given a birth date in the range 20th May 1890 to the 19th May 1891

 

Amalgamate the two and you get a birth date range of the 28th May 1890 to the 19th May 1891.

 

Using the same trust assumption with Candidate 1, who was 21 when the 1911 Census of England & Wales was taken on the 2nd April 1911, his date of birth would lie between 3rd April 1889 and the 2nd April 1890. So at this point we would have to park him.

 

Will put me thinking cap on, but in the meantime you don't have the birth or death certificate for the child Charles Harold Smith? Clutching at straws a bit but trying to think of ways of establishing the civilian occupation of William George.

 

I also take it that the witnesses from the marriage of William George cam be ruled out as being members of his family.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[ColinOntheIsland]

On 02/02/2021 at 17:32, ss002d6252 said:

Oops - ignore that link, wrong one as I was flipping between screens at the time.

 

You can just buy the will from the probate service - https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Wills?Surname=Smith &SurnameGrants=Smith &YearOfDeath=1916&YearOfDeathGrants=1916&RegimentNumber=10431&AdvancedSearch=True&IsGrantSearch=False&IsCalendarSearch=False#soldiers

 

Craig

Hi

I now have his will but it helps little as he leaves everything to my grandma Eva Smith. I note the witness though was Henry T Marshall  a Lance Corporal in the 6th E.Y. His service number was 16453 but I've found 2 entries on his medal card one being in the 6th with this service number but also one in the Labour Corps both dated 1914 (thought these were inaugurated in 1917?) With a service number of  419268 and he requested to revert to Private upon joining them. He was demobbed on 29 Jan 1919.

I think this is another cul-de-sac?

Regards

Colin