Help finding where my grandfather was born and lived in UK.

[ColinOntheIsland]

I am having trouble finding birth details for my grandmother's 1st husband William George Smith. He served in the 6th & 12th East Yorks but was K.I.A 27 May 1916. I have details on what they were doing and when up to his death. I have also tracked down through CWGC his memorial @ Colincamps. His service no. was 10431 and married my grandmother in the Newark area on 19 May 1915. Findmypast states he was born in Bradford but I cannot find him.  I have his medals but would like to trace him and his family. I know his father's name was John Aaron. But cannot find them through any of the censuses. Grateful for any steers.

[ss002d6252]

20 minutes ago, ColinOntheIsland said:

I am having trouble finding birth details for my grandmother's 1st husband William George Smith. He served in the 6th & 12th East Yorks but was K.I.A 27 May 1916. I have details on what they were doing and when up to his death. I have also tracked down through CWGC his memorial @ Colincamps. His service no. was 10431 and married my grandmother in the Newark area on 19 May 1915. Findmypast states he was born in Bradford but I cannot find him.  I have his medals but would like to trace him and his family. I know his father's name was John Aaron. But cannot find them through any of the censuses. Grateful for any steers.

Welcome aboard.

Any idea how old he was ?

 

You might need to get the marriage certificate.

 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

The pension record shows his wife was born 1894 so assuming a roughly similar age for William gives us this as a possibility;

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1901%2F0025638078

Father is shown as John B but that could be a transcription error.

 

Craig

[alf mcm]

Welcome to the forum.

  Freebmd has 2 William George Smith's born in Bradford.  https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

One registered in June 1876, the other in June 1879.

 

Regards,

Alf McM

[BereniceUK]

I've found the death of a John Aaron Smith, in the first quarter of 1933, aged 90, in the Poplar registration district, but not that man's birth - perhaps it was recorded as plain John Smith. So he would have been born 1842/43, which conceivably could be a match for his being William George's father.

Edited 1 February , 2021 by BereniceUK

[ss002d6252]

His Will is available to download for £1.50 - it may or may not add something.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1901%2F0025638078

Craig

[BereniceUK]

I've found the birth of a John Aron Smith, fourth quarter of 1842, in the Kings Lynn registration district. His mother's maiden name was Corston. I make no claim that this might be William George's father, just perhaps worth mentioning.

 

Edit: I couldn't find a death record for John Aron Smith, so, as Steve says below, John Aron and John Aaron are the same man, but likely not to be the right man. Is the OP certain that George William's father was John Aaron?

Edited 1 February , 2021 by BereniceUK

[Stebie9173]

That John Aaron Smith (age 68) is on the 1911 Census with his wife Eleanor (58) at Canning Town - born Lynn, Norfolk. The census shows 2 children born to the marriage, both of whom have died by 1911, so may not be the right father?

 

 

Steve

[helpjpl]

According to CWGC,  William was about 25 when he died:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/312282/W G SMITH/

 

JP

[PRC]

CWGC records him as aged 25 when he died on the 27th May 1916. The additional information is that he was the “Husband of Eva Smith, of Barkston, Grantham”.

 

Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as born and resident Bradford.

 

Taking that information at face value you’d be looking for a man born May 1890 to May 1891. The working assumption has to be that it is Bradford, Yorkshire, not Bradford on Avon.

 

He doesn’t get a mention in the Bradford volume of the National Roll of Honour.

 

There is no obvious match for a birth of a William George Smith in the Bradford Civil Registration District in the right period - Q2 1890 to Q3 1891 .

 

Starting with the William Smith’s (there were no William G’s) on the 1911 Census of England & Wales who had been born Bradford was actually easier than I expected. Several of the possible candidates from previous census had married. The working assumption here has to be that he was actually in England & Wales and didn’t deliberately evade or deceive the census or go by the name George. I also have to hope that the 1915 marriage certificate doesn’t show he was a widower.

 

So the possible candidates are:-

 

1: Aged 21, an unmarried Boiler Rivetter living with his uncle and aunt at 70 Garrett Street, Leeds Road, Bradford. They are Walton Atkinson Hill, (35, General Labourer in an Iron Foundry, born Bradford) and Hannah Hill, (aged 33, born Bradford). The couple state they have been married 8 years and have had 2 children, both then still alive and living with them. Also in the household is their 14 year old niece, Elsie Briggs, born Bradford.

 

2: Aged 20, an unmarried Cardboard Box Maker, living with his parents at 236b Great Horton Road, Bradford. They were Joseph Taylor Smith, (aged 49, a Church of England Verger, born Bradford), and Ann Elizabeth, (aged 50, born Bradford). The couple have been married 30 years and the marriage has produced 9 children, of which 8 were then still alive.  Six of them, including William, were still unmarried and living with them.

 

For now candidate 1 has the most potential.

 

The marriage of a Walton Atkinson Hill to a Hannah Leeming was recorded in the Bradford District in Q4 of 1903.

 

But there is no obvious marriage of a John A Smith to either a Hill or a Leeming in the 20 years before the birth of William in England & Wales.

 

So suggest next step is the 1915 marriage certificate.

Confirmation of age stated at the time of marriage.

Confirmation of the civilian occupation of William George – this is normally given as well as him being a soldier.

Confirmation of fathers name, occupation and whether still alive.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[keithmroberts]

I have checked the Bradford Roll of Honour, no obvious candidates mentioned in that.

[IPT]

There's a baptism of Charles Harold Smith, in Barkston (nr. Grantham), on 8/11/1915, parents William George and Eva Smith.  Doesn't appear on the Barkston or Grantham war memorials however. 

[ColinOntheIsland]

19 hours ago, IPT said:

There's a baptism of Charles Harold Smith, in Barkston (nr. Grantham), on 8/11/1915, parents William George and Eva Smith.  Doesn't appear on the Barkston or Grantham war memorials however. 

 

[ColinOntheIsland]

Hi IPT

This was another amazing discovery I knew nothing of!! But it makes sense as unfortunately Charles died before end of the year therefore less than 8 weeks old.

Eva must have been approx 3 months pregnant when they married but it's very sad that their son died.

Thank you.

[ColinOntheIsland]

19 hours ago, keithmroberts said:

I have checked the Bradford Roll of Honour, no obvious candidates mentioned in that.

Thank you 

[sadbrewer]

Notice of his death

courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive.

[ColinOntheIsland]

20 hours ago, PRC said:

CWGC records him as aged 25 when he died on the 27th May 1916. The additional information is that he was the “Husband of Eva Smith, of Barkston, Grantham”.

 

Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as born and resident Bradford.

 

Taking that information at face value you’d be looking for a man born May 1890 to May 1891. The working assumption has to be that it is Bradford, Yorkshire, not Bradford on Avon.

 

He doesn’t get a mention in the Bradford volume of the National Roll of Honour.

 

There is no obvious match for a birth of a William George Smith in the Bradford Civil Registration District in the right period - Q2 1890 to Q3 1891 .

 

Starting with the William Smith’s (there were no William G’s) on the 1911 Census of England & Wales who had been born Bradford was actually easier than I expected. Several of the possible candidates from previous census had married. The working assumption here has to be that he was actually in England & Wales and didn’t deliberately evade or deceive the census or go by the name George. I also have to hope that the 1915 marriage certificate doesn’t show he was a widower.

 

So the possible candidates are:-

 

1: Aged 21, an unmarried Boiler Rivetter living with his uncle and aunt at 70 Garrett Street, Leeds Road, Bradford. They are Walton Atkinson Hill, (35, General Labourer in an Iron Foundry, born Bradford) and Hannah Hill, (aged 33, born Bradford). The couple state they have been married 8 years and have had 2 children, both then still alive and living with them. Also in the household is their 14 year old niece, Elsie Briggs, born Bradford.

 

2: Aged 20, an unmarried Cardboard Box Maker, living with his parents at 236b Great Horton Road, Bradford. They were Joseph Taylor Smith, (aged 49, a Church of England Verger, born Bradford), and Ann Elizabeth, (aged 50, born Bradford). The couple have been married 30 years and the marriage has produced 9 children, of which 8 were then still alive.  Six of them, including William, were still unmarried and living with them.

 

For now candidate 1 has the most potential.

 

The marriage of a Walton Atkinson Hill to a Hannah Leeming was recorded in the Bradford District in Q4 of 1903.

 

But there is no obvious marriage of a John A Smith to either a Hill or a Leeming in the 20 years before the birth of William in England & Wales.

 

So suggest next step is the 1915 marriage certificate.

Confirmation of age stated at the time of marriage.

Confirmation of the civilian occupation of William George – this is normally given as well as him being a soldier.

Confirmation of fathers name, occupation and whether still alive.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Hello Peter

Thank you very much for all the digging you have done its amazing!

I have the marriage certificate which confirms his age at 24 and a bachelor. His occupation only has 'Private 6th East Yorks regiment (Commercials) no other occupation. His father John Aaron was a agricultural labourer and still alive, well it doesn't say deceased if he was.

William George must've been born therefore between June 1890 and May 1891.

These dates are the same for his age given at death as 25. So the search parameters are limited but he could be a William or a George  Smith in any census he appears in.

Could he have joined the East Yorks or a different regiment before war broke out?

Although candidate 1 looks good with the 1911 census being carried out on 2 April does this rule candidate 1 out?

Grateful for any further help you can provide.

Colin

[ColinOntheIsland]

25 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

Notice of his death

courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive.

Thanks but I have that in my family tree records already.

21 hours ago, helpjpl said:

According to CWGC,  William was about 25 when he died:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/312282/W G SMITH/

 

JP

Thanks I already have rhese.

[ColinOntheIsland]

23 hours ago, Stebie9173 said:

That John Aaron Smith (age 68) is on the 1911 Census with his wife Eleanor (58) at Canning Town - born Lynn, Norfolk. The census shows 2 children born to the marriage, both of whom have died by 1911, so may not be the right father?

 

 

Steve

Not sure on this one Steve as my John Aaron states he was an ag lab when his son William married Eva in 1915. Were there ag labs in Canning Town then?

Thanks

Colin

[ColinOntheIsland]

23 hours ago, BereniceUK said:

I've found the birth of a John Aron Smith, fourth quarter of 1842, in the Kings Lynn registration district. His mother's maiden name was Corston. I make no claim that this might be William George's father, just perhaps worth mentioning.

 

Edit: I couldn't find a death record for John Aron Smith, so, as Steve says below, John Aron and John Aaron are the same man, but likely not to be the right man. Is the OP certain that George William's father was John Aaron?

Hi there thanks for info. I know William George's father was John Aaron as it is on their marriage certificate albeit at a registry office.

Colin

[ColinOntheIsland]

23 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Welcome to the forum.

  Freebmd has 2 William George Smith's born in Bradford.  https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

One registered in June 1876, the other in June 1879.

 

Regards,

Alf McM

Thanks but I believe his birth year to be 1890/1 from his marriage certificate and age at death.

[ColinOntheIsland]

23 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Welcome aboard.

Any idea how old he was ?

 

You might need to get the marriage certificate.

 

Craig

Hi Craig please see my responses below as I do have his marriage cert so know he was 24 then.

Colin

[ColinOntheIsland]

23 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

His Will is available to download for £1.50 - it may or may not add something.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1901%2F0025638078

Craig

Hi Craig

Alas but I would also need to join findmypast before paying the £1.50 for his will. I'll wait n see if I can find out any other way.

Colin

[ss002d6252]

26 minutes ago, ColinOntheIsland said:

Hi Craig

Alas but I would also need to join findmypast before paying the £1.50 for his will. I'll wait n see if I can find out any other way.

Colin

Oops - ignore that link, wrong one as I was flipping between screens at the time.

 

You can just buy the will from the probate service - https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Wills?Surname=Smith &SurnameGrants=Smith &YearOfDeath=1916&YearOfDeathGrants=1916&RegimentNumber=10431&AdvancedSearch=True&IsGrantSearch=False&IsCalendarSearch=False#soldiers

 

Craig

[PRC]

2 hours ago, ColinOntheIsland said:

I have the marriage certificate which confirms his age at 24 and a bachelor. His occupation only has 'Private 6th East Yorks regiment (Commercials) no other occupation. His father John Aaron was a agricultural labourer and still alive, well it doesn't say deceased if he was.

 

The information given to the registrar / priest was whatever the individuals concerned wanted it to be - unfortunately as it was not necessarily verified. If bride or groom couldn't produce a birth certificate there was a simple declaration to sign with the usual penalties of fines & imprisonment, (plus of course with a church wedding, the mortal sin of lying to God) - but unfortunately the incidences of bigamy shows that there are those prepared to take the risk. Doesn't mean it applies, and William George may well have believed his father to be alive, even if he wasn't. As he was stated to be 24 he didn't need his parents permission to marry so there was little to be gained by lieing in connection with that - other than to amend surname to get things to tie up.

 

2 hours ago, ColinOntheIsland said:

Could he have joined the East Yorks or a different regiment before war broke out?

 

He could have, but standard commitments for a Regular were 12 years, (with a split between time actually serving 24/7 "in the colours" and a time in the reserves), for a Special Reservist 6 years, (although they could have opted for less), and for a Territorial Force man it was 4 years. Given that he was 24 and already serving with the 6th Battalion when he married, it's pushing it for him as anything other than a Territorial Force man to be time expired by the outbreak of the Great War and able to enlist in a Kitchener Army Battalion like the 6th.

 

To try and eliminate some of those possibilities I tried looking at men with nearby East Yorkshire Regiment service numbers to see if any patterns emerged. To be honest it's a bf a mixed bag. All I can assume is that some numbers went unused during the initial recruitment, and so were subsequently allocated to later recruits.

 

10422 Albert Dove subsequently 676452 Labour Corps.

Surviving Service Records shows enlisted for One Year with the Colours at Hull(?-tbc) on the 11th August 1914. He was a 28 year old married Labourer, born Hull. Posted to the 6th Battalion at Beverley on the 13th August 1914. Shown as being with the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force from the 30th June 1915 – but that may have been the date he sailed.

 

10423 John Coggin.

No surviving Service Records. Soldiers Died in the Great War records Killed in Action on the 22nd August 1915 in the Dardenelles with the 6th Battalion. He enlisted at Hull.

 

10424 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving service records for a George Bellamy who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at Hull on the 11th August 1914. A 29 year old married Labourer, born Hull, he had previously been a Special Reservist. Posted to the Depot 13th August 1914. Discharged from the 6th Battalion on the 7th October 1914 as not likely to become an efficient soldier.

 

10425 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving service records for a John Capeling who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at West Hartlepool on the 26th August 1914. A 21 year old Apprentice Rivetter, he was unmarried. He was posted to the 6th Battalion the same day. Discharged from the 6th Battalion on the 9th October 1914 as not likely to become an efficient soldier.

 

10426 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving service records for a Robert Joseph White who enlisted for One Year with the Colours at Hull on the 11th August 1914. A 23 year old Labourer, born Hull, he was unmarried. Joined the 6th Battalion at Beverley on the 13th August 1914. Deserted several times – the last on the 2nd January 1915. Received a 2 year prison term. Returned to the 3/6th Battalion from Aldershot on the 12th September 1916. Deserted again 25th October 1916.

 

10427 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving service records for a Daniel Jones who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at Tumble on the 10th September 1914. Aged 19 and a Miner, born Tumble, Carmarthenshire, he was unmarried. It’s not clear what Battalion if any he served with. Discharged on the 24th October 1914 as not likely to become an efficient soldier. The Officer who signed it off was the Lieutenant Colonel of the 6th Battalion.

 

10428 Augustine Fitzgerald, subsequently 377293 Labour Corps.

Surviving service records for Augustine Fitzgerald who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at Hull on the 11th August 1914. Aged 38, he was an unmarried Labourer, born Sculcoates, Hull. He stated he was currently with the 1st Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment. (He was actually discharged 31st January 1906 after 12 years service). Joined the 6th Battalion at the Depot 13th August 1914. Shown as being with the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force from the 30th June 1915 – but that may have been the date he sailed.

 

10429 No MiC match at the National Archive

 

10430 James Martin subsequently 182626 Labour Corps.

No surviving service records.

 

10431 William George Smith.

 

10432 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving one page service record for a Thomas Mackey who enlisted on the 8th September 1914 at Newcastle upon Tyne with the Northumberland Fusiliers. Aged 20 and a Hawker, he was born Newcastle upon Tyne. He was subsequently transferred to the East Yorkshire Regiment. He was discharged 3rd November 1914 under Army Order 137 of 1910.

 

10433 No MiC match at the National Archive

No surviving service records.

 

10434 William Clark subsequently 488964 Labour Corps or Samuel Littlewood.

Surviving service records for William Clark who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at Hull on the 11th August 1914. Aged 34 he was a married Ships Steward, born York.He had previously served in the 3rd West Riding Regiment – ended by purchase in 1904. He joined the 6th Battalion at Beverley on the 13th August 1914, was transferred to the 3rd Battalion on the 24th August 1914 and then back to the 6th on the 12th May 1915.

 

Silver War Badge Roll for Samuel Littlewood shows he enlisted 29th September 1914 – I suspect his service number is a typo.

 

10435 No MiC match at the National Archive

Surviving service records for James Groke who enlisted for Three Years with the Colours at Hull on the 11th August 1914. Aged 23, he was an unmarried Labourer, born Sculcoates, Hull. He had previously served in the 3rd Battalion as a Special Reservist. He joined the 6th Battalion at Beverley on the 13th August 1914. Discharged from the 6th Battalion on the 27th October 1914 as not likely to become an efficient soldier.

 

10436 No MiC match at the National Archive

No surviving service records.

 

10437 Thomas Warriner.

No surviving service records.

 

10438 Sydney Thornton Milburn.

No surviving service records.

 

10439 No MiC match at the National Archive

No surviving service records.

 

10440 No MiC match at the National Archive

No surviving service records.

 

It would be nice to believe William George enlisted at Hull on the 11th August 1914 but there are just enough exceptions even amongst that small batch to make it less of an absolute.

And the other first impression was what a group of reprobates were in the recruiting office on that day. I haven't documented it all but most for whom there are surviving records appear to have had disciplinary issues. Robert White wasn't the only deserter - just the worst offender.

 

But as you can see, where men have previous military experience, any existing legal obligation to report for duty on the outbreak of war had expired.

 

5 hours ago, ColinOntheIsland said:

Although candidate 1 looks good with the 1911 census being carried out on 2 April does this rule candidate 1 out?

 

Will do the maths, take another look at the Census records and get back to you on that one.

 

Cheers,

Peter