Uniform ID and Location

[adrianjohn]

Peter - That's absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much. I've been flummoxed too about the dates and I think that the story behind the photo may have become skewed.

The request for help came in from a lady in America who's tracing her family connections with Hay - I'm a member of the Hay local history group and picked up the enquiry.

Always the case with family research, there are so many false leads, blind alleys, wrong turnings and dead ends and I think that maybe the case here.

The only references to Alfred Pembridge I found are:

 

(25) Swan Bank                    1851 Census

Philip Pembridge, head, mar. 38, tailor, b. Hay

Mary Pembridge, wife, 33, b. Llanigon, Bre.

James, 14; Mary, 12; Sarah, 10; Philip, 8; Alfred, 6; Arthur, 2; all born Hay

 

George Street - 1861 Census (in 1871 was 14 Castle Street)

Phillip Pembridge, head, mar. 47, tailor, b. Hay

Mary Pembridge, wife, 43, laundress, b. Llanigon

Sarah, 19; Phillip, 17; Alfred, 15; Arthur, 12; Humphrey, 8; Albert, 4; Harriett, 6mo. all born Hay.

 

I shall contact the good lady for more info!

 

[adrianjohn]

The Phillips was my error - see earlier post. I had been writing elsewhere about Phillip, Alfred's father.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Take your point - so if we are looking at a 19 year old in 1902, that extends the date range for birth to 1883. That still doesn't bring in any new candidates as far as the birth records for England & Wales are concerned.

 

As a genealogy exercise it's more than possible to revise the criteria for the search, but based on the initial parameters and assuming I've not made a boo-boo, alarm bells would be ringing for me that this is not Alfred Pembridge because there is no likely Alfred Pembridge in the obvious civil records. Even a search of the Civil Death records up to 2007 for England & Wales, (end of the dataset currently available), shows only two Alfred Pembridge's  - the 1846 born one in 1917 (Hay District), and the 1891 born man in 1960 (Merthyr Tydfil District).

Maybe it's me looking in the wrong places, but for now I'd need some indication of how good the identification of the man in the picture actually is, particularly as it has already gone from Phillips to Pembridge.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Deeply impressive, Peter, as always.  It will be interesting to follow this through and see if it comes to any convincing fruition.

[PRC]

25 minutes ago, adrianjohn said:

The Phillips was my error - see earlier post. I had been writing elsewhere about Phillip, Alfred's father.

 

No worries - I was in the middle of writing about someone with the first name Arthur and so even though I was looking at records for an Alfred Pembridge, I kept writing Arthur Pembridge

 

29 minutes ago, adrianjohn said:

The only references to Alfred Pembridge I found are:

 

(25) Swan Bank                    1851 Census

Philip Pembridge, head, mar. 38, tailor, b. Hay

Mary Pembridge, wife, 33, b. Llanigon, Bre.

James, 14; Mary, 12; Sarah, 10; Philip, 8; Alfred, 6; Arthur, 2; all born Hay

 

George Street - 1861 Census (in 1871 was 14 Castle Street)

Phillip Pembridge, head, mar. 47, tailor, b. Hay

Mary Pembridge, wife, 43, laundress, b. Llanigon

Sarah, 19; Phillip, 17; Alfred, 15; Arthur, 12; Humphrey, 8; Albert, 4; Harriett, 6mo. all born Hay.

 

Those are earlier appearances I believe of the man I've described being married in 1869 and then with the details from the 1881 to 1911 Censuses plus death in 1917.

 

31 minutes ago, adrianjohn said:

The request for help came in from a lady in America who's tracing her family connections with Hay

 

You may need to check her homework - particularly the leap across the pond of whichever member of the Pembridge line is her direct ancestor. If you need a second, (or is that third) pair of eyes by all means PM me. Hopefully your requestor will have the golden key that will unlock it all.

 

I'm not spotting any likely candidates for an Alfred Pembridge leaving the UK post 1890, not finding any Alfred Pembridge turning up at the eastern seaboard of the United States & Canada, nor am I finding an entry for an Alfred Pembridge born 1853-1883 on the US Census, (1900-1940) or the Canada Census of 1910. Again lots of reasons why that absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense, but as I said earlier, it would just set my alarm bells ringing.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

Even allowing for all the caveats that you’ve mentioned it does seem odd.  That’s the problem with often unwritten family lore passed down over a 100-years of course.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

So, are we saying that the man in the original photo is Alfred Pembridge , born 1846.

In 1902, he would have been 56.

I don't think that can be right.

[PRC]

16 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

So, are we saying that the man in the original photo is Alfred Pembridge , born 1846.

In 1902, he would have been 56.

I don't think that can be right.

 

What I'm saying is that there is no likely candidate for any Alfred Pembridge as far as the records for England & Wales are concerned.

I'm ruling out the 1846 born man precisely because he was not only 56 in 1902 but also because he was on the 1901 Census as a civilian, ( and the 1891/1881/1871, etc), with children born Hay - this was no globe trotting career soldier).

 

So now we are waiting for an update from America before investigating any further.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[adrianjohn]

I have a feeling that I’ve been sent misinformation-certainly not by all you guys who’ve been so helpful but by the owner of the photo. All the postings here make sense. It shows what a great asset the GWF is not just for WW1 topics but for so much more. There’s a lot of knowledge here. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

14 hours ago, PRC said:

 

What I'm saying is that there is no likely candidate for any Alfred Pembridge as far as the records for England & Wales are concerned

Got it.

In all the evidence, I thought I'd missed something obvious.

[Hilad]

On 31/01/2021 at 14:06, PRC said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are no surviving service records for an Alfred Pembridge in the WO96 & WO97 series that I could spot. There are also no MiC’s in the Discovery catalogue for any Alfred Pembridge. However plenty of reasons why both could be true and yet your man still served with the South Wales Borderers in Peshawar in the period 1900-1902.

 

So looking at it as an exercise in genealogy, my starting positon would be that if it was taken in 1902 and he had five years old conduct then he had to be at least 23 – so latest year of birth is 1879.

 

And if it was taken in 1900 and he was a 12 year man having chosen to do the full 12 years in the colours and he was 26 at the time of enlistment, (which probably accounts for the then practical upper age for first time recruits) he would then be 38 and so born no earlier then 1872.

 

If you wanted to extend the scope of the exercise and have him down as a 21 year man, still a Private and having enlisted aged 26, in the last year of his service and the photo taken in 1900, well that takes you back to 1853.

 

And therein lies the problem. The General Registrars Office shows no Alfred Pembridge born in England & Wales between Q3 1846, (Alfred Pembridge, birth registered Hay, Breconshire) and Q1 1891, (Alfred Edgar A. Pembridge, birth registered Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire).

 

Usual caveats apply. Before the tightening of enforcement on individuals and the local authorities in 1872, compliance with civil birth registration varied enormously. So absense of a birth record doesn’t mean absense of a birth. And of course he may not have been born with the surname Pembridge, and could have been born outside England & Wales.

 

But the incidences of the number of Alfred Pembridge’s on the Census returns for England and Wales from 1891 onwards is remarkably consistant, and still no standout candidate for a man of the right age.

 

The Alfred Pembridge born 1846 in the Hay District was still with us on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. Aged 64 and by then a widower, he was living at 20 Castle Street, Hay. He doesn’t state how long he was married, but the marriage produced 7 children, of which 6 were then still alive.

 

On the 1901 Census, aged 55, he was recorded already living at Castle Street – so not in Peshawar. His wife Ann, was the same age. The marriage of an Alfred Pembridge to an Ann Matthews was recorded in the Hay District in Q2 1869.

 

On the 1891 Census, aged 44, he and Ann were recorded at 22 Castle Street. Children living with them were George, (20), Carrie, (14), James, (14) and Emily, (7). Adding to the mix on the 1881 Census were Sarah, (9), Louisa, (5), while Carrie (Caroline) is shown as aged 3 and James was 11 months. All the children were born Hay.

 

Likely birth records:-

 

George Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name tbc, registed Hay District Q2 1870.

 

Sarah Ann Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name Matthews, registed Hay District Q4 1872.

 

Minnie Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name Matthews, registed Hay District Q4 1874. The death of a Minnie Pembridge, aged under 1, was recorded in the Hay District, Q3 1875.

 

Louisa Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name Matthews, registed Hay District Q2 1876.

 

Caroline Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name tbc, registed Hay District Q4 1877.

 

James Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name Matthews, registed Hay District Q2 1880.

 

Emily Grace Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name tbc, registed Hay District Q1 1884.

 

That gives us candidates for the 7 children, 6 of whom were still alive according to father Alfred on the 1911 Census.

 

While looking for candidates for George and James in the WO96 and WO97 series and having drawn a blank, I came across an alternative. 5154 Henry George Pembridge, born Hay and then aged 18 years and 8 months, enlisted in the South Wales Borderers on the 1st January 1896. He was then aged 18 years and 8 months, and had previously served in the Militia. He attested on a 12 year term, 7 years in the Colours, 5 in the reserves. After initial training he was posted to the 1st Battalion on the 2nd October 1896 and seems to have remained with them until transferred to the Army Reserve 1903. Not so sure about the Good Conduct – he had a Lance Corporal stripe taken away and 1899 forfeited his Good Conduct Pay, (reinstated a year later). Nothing to indicate he qualified as a marksmen. He was in India “from” 22nd November 1897 to 11th(?) December 1903. Thos dates could included travel time. His next of kin was his siter, Hannah Cartwright, of Bell Bank, 21 Bear Street, Hay.

While a reservist he would marry a Jessie Belcher at Maindee(?),Newport, Monmouthshire on the 18th October 1905. They had a son Percival Belcher Pembridge, born Newport 23rd October 1906. His first term of engagement ended on the 31st December 1911.

 

A fresh pair of eyes may draw different conclusions

 

It does however prompt the question, what is the source for believing that he is an Alfred Pembridge, or even just an Alfred?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Hilad]

Congratulations that man who identified the person in the picture as George Henry Pembridge! He was an ancestor of mine and I am I contact with the American woman who has sent you the copy of the photo. Our ancestor Emily Lloyd’s (who emigrated to the USA) mother was Mary Ann Pembridge, who had a brother called Philip Pembridge who had a son called George Henry Pembridge who is undoubtedly the person in the photo. He might have sent it to his cousin in the US, or more likely his father sent it to his sister who sent it to her daughter - maybe......

[PRC]

Welcome to the forum @Hilad - good to get the right name to go with the face.

 

I'll let the man himself sign off the thread . Cheers, Peter.

 

(Image sourced Genes Reunited)

 

[Hilad]