Uniform ID and Location

[adrianjohn]

Can anyone ID this uniform and the connection with Peshawar? Soldier's surname is Phillips, given name Alfred.

[FROGSMILE]

The soldier is dressed for walking-out (of barracks/cantonments) circa 1898-1902 and he’s from an infantry regiment based in India as part of a garrison in, or near, Peshawar.  His upper garment appears to be a 5-button scarlet serge frock of a style issued from 1898+ with chest pockets.  There was also a dark blue frock of identical style, and in B&W photos it can be difficult to tell them apart.

His headdress is a white, ‘foreign service helmet’ (FSH) of the pattern gradually replaced by the Wolseley helmet from 1902.  His regimental cap badge is affixed to the pagri/puggaree on the front of the helmet.  If you can scan the photo properly so that there is better magnification and resolution then it will be possible to confirm the regiment.  Once the regiment is known it might be possible to trace the soldier, although a hometown origin would make that a lot easier.

 

In 1898 the two British battalions garrisoning Peshawar were 2nd Battalion Princess Alexandra of Wales's Own - Yorkshire Regiment (formerly the 19th Regiment), and 2nd Battalion the Inniskilling Fusiliers (formerly the 108th Regiment).  Looking at the shape of the badge in your photo, the former seems the most likely.

 

Edited 30 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[adrianjohn]

Many thanks for the swift reply! Phillip's home town was Hay on Wye, but he could have signed on anywhere,  of course.

I will see what I can do with the quality of the photo.

Adrian

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, adrianjohn said:

Many thanks for the swift reply! Phillip's home town was Hay on Wye, but he could have signed on anywhere,  of course.

I will see what I can do with the quality of the photo.

Adrian

 

Yes he could have signed on anywhere and also the regiments at that time still did not just take recruits from their home areas assigned since July 1881.  Sheer practicality meant that they also took recruits from any area if the local regiment where he joined was well supplied and he indicated no particular allegiance or preference, the recruiting sergeants loved such men as they could use them to fill quotas.

 

The 2nd Battalion POWO Yorkshire Regiment remained in India until 1906.  In early 1897 they were at Ranikhet and in the latter half of that year participated in the hard fought Tirah Campaign, and then to Peshawar in 1898.  In Autumn 1899 they moved to Dagshai, so your photo, if it does prove to show one of their soldiers, is a real snapshot in time.

Edited 30 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[adrianjohn]

 

 

There are no identifying badges etc on his uniform except the stripes and crossed        . The badge here is all there is by way of ID and would be a lot easier to decipher if the picture quality was better.  Always the way with these old photos!

[Sepoy]

To me that looks like the South Wales Borderers badge with the Sphinx centre.
It is not easy identifying badges from small scans.

Sepoy

[adrianjohn]

I can see that now. Thanks. Were the South Wales Borderers in Peshawar though?

On attachment perhaps?

[FROGSMILE]

I too think that the badge is that of the South Wales Borderers.

 

The 1st Battalion SWB were in Peshawar between November 1900 and October 1902, which fits the uniform very well.  The enclosed headstone image is from a Christian cemetery nearby.

Edited 30 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[adrianjohn]

Thank you both so much. Now the research begins!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, adrianjohn said:

Thank you both so much. Now the research begins!

 

Here's a photo of two soldiers from the same battalion in hot weather season dress.  Notice how the helmets are styled similarly.  The 1st Battalion SWB were in India between December 1897 and December 1910.  Mela Ram was a well known portrait photographer and many CDV style portrait photos of soldiers appear under his name.

 

Edited 30 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[adrianjohn]

Always amuses me how similar all these guys look. It's the hair styles!

Thanks for the photo.  I'm now after attestation papers for Alfred.

The SWB museum in Brecon is just along the road from me - takes twenty minutes to get there from where I am in Hay.

Handy!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, adrianjohn said:

Always amuses me how similar all these guys look. It's the hair styles!

Thanks for the photo.  I'm now after attestation papers for Alfred.

The SWB museum in Brecon is just along the road from me - takes twenty minutes to get there from where I am in Hay.

Handy!

 

Glad to help.  I know it well, having married in Brecon, and lived in Crickhowell.  Ancient history now, but a lovely place with lovely memories.

 

As regards similar facial features, part of it is the moustaches, which were obligatory under first Queen's Regulations, and then King's Regulations ('hair of the upper lip to be left unshaven'), until conscription was introduced in 1916.  In that regard KRs were followed closely by Regular soldiers, but not so the auxiliary forces, who first and foremost were civilians for whom it seemed not to apply.  It also wasn't followed in the same rigid manner by soldiers of the Dominions, including those on the permanent cadres.  It has thus become an almost instant indicator of a probable British Army regular when in uniform during that period.

Edited 30 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Could you post a hi-res scan of the whole card Adrian?

The helmet came up nicely, but bigger again would be Good.

[adrianjohn]

Thanks Dai Bach   I wish I could get a better definition. Problem is I don’t have original photo and am working from an emailed attachment. I shall keep fiddling about to see if any improvement possible. Appreciate your response. 

[GWF1967]

Edited 30 January , 2021 by GWF1967

[adrianjohn]

Nice job! Black and white does enhance the image. Thanks. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, adrianjohn said:

Nice job! Black and white does enhance the image. Thanks. 

There’s clearly a piece of coloured felt behind his cap badge that doesn’t appear in the photo of the two soldiers in whites.  It’s almost certainly green, as in 1902 the SWB had the joyous event of having their prized green facings returned to them. That helps to date the photo accurately.

Edited 30 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

8 hours ago, adrianjohn said:

Can anyone ID this uniform and the connection with Peshawar? Soldier's surname is Phillips, given name Alfred.

 

Adrian John

Your man has at least five years good conduct service and is a marksman. The portrait was taken in what passed as the cold season.

I think that he is wearing the blue patrol rather than scarlet, as the frock cuffs have no visible (to me) decorative crow's foot lace, standard on the India Pattern.

Blue patrols appear to have never been an India issue, but were a smart item, either privately purchased to a regimental pattern, or regimentally bulk-purchased. Not a lot is known about them.

The soldier in India was much better off financially than at Home, native labour was very cheap.

However, he might be in his first year in India, during which period a soldier could be expected to wear his Home Pattern scarlet frock. In his next year or part year the Indian Government provided the local pattern.

If they could get past the Guardroom soldiers walked out in a considerable variety of uniforms: the Commanding Officer, Adjutant and Sergeant Major decided what was allowed.

[adrianjohn]

Thank you Muerrisch. It’s great to start putting the story together and all help is much appreciated. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 30/01/2021 at 20:38, Muerrisch said:

 

Adrian John

Your man has at least five years good conduct service and is a marksman. The portrait was taken in what passed as the cold season.

I think that he is wearing the blue patrol rather than scarlet, as the frock cuffs have no visible (to me) decorative crow's foot lace, standard on the India Pattern.

Blue patrols appear to have never been an India issue, but were a smart item, either privately purchased to a regimental pattern, or regimentally bulk-purchased. Not a lot is known about them.

The soldier in India was much better off financially than at Home, native labour was very cheap.

However, he might be in his first year in India, during which period a soldier could be expected to wear his Home Pattern scarlet frock. In his next year or part year the Indian Government provided the local pattern.

If they could get past the Guardroom soldiers walked out in a considerable variety of uniforms: the Commanding Officer, Adjutant and Sergeant Major decided what was allowed.

I wasn’t 100% sure at first look , hence my comment about the scarlet and blue patrol frocks of that particular cut being almost identical in appearance via B&W photography, but on reflection I can say with confidence that my assertion that the upper garment is scarlet, is correct.  Infantry battalions only wore white foreign service helmets with scarlet upper garments, never with blue, as I’m sure you know.
 

The particular type of patrol frock made with chest pockets, but no skirt pockets, was actually produced in at least three different colour cloths, scarlet, blue and drab (probably Rifle green too).  It did not have any trefoil cuff loop in the British infantry service, but was instead quite plain.  I can’t recall what decoration sergeants had, if any.
 

The drab version was the intermediate pattern that led to the 1902 pattern service dress by the end of the 2nd Boer War.  Both I and Toby have photos of the scarlet version and if I can find it on my thumb/memory sticks I’ll post it.  
 

The cavalry also had their own version of the same style, the light cavalry in blue and the heavy cavalry in scarlet.  In the case of the infantry it seems to have been the final pattern of scarlet undress ever issued, and for a short time was worn by other ranks after WW1 in India and Canada, where the wearing of scarlet was still seen as important from a presentational view point.  It appears to have been issued for a relatively short period and concurrently with older patterns, as photographs are less common than with other types.

 

This type of patrol frock should not be confused with the blue patrol jacket that had skirt pockets in addition to chest pockets and was worn as undress, together with undress headdress. 

Edited 6 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrianjohn]

Mistake by me - soldier’s surname is Pembridge, not Phillips as I originally wrote. 
Thanks to everyone for advice and suggestions. 

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, adrianjohn said:

Mistake by me - soldier’s surname is Pembridge, not Phillips as I originally wrote. 
Thanks to everyone for advice and suggestions. 

If you collect what you know together and make a post in the ‘Soldiers and their Units’ section of the forum, one of the excellent genealogical detectives might be able to trace his WW1 service details, assuming that there are any.

Edited 31 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 30/01/2021 at 11:24, adrianjohn said:

Soldier's surname is Phillips, given name Alfred.

 

On 30/01/2021 at 12:09, adrianjohn said:

Phillip's home town was Hay on Wye,

 

On 30/01/2021 at 12:58, FROGSMILE said:

The 1st Battalion SWB were in India between December 1897 and December 1910.

 

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There’s clearly a piece of coloured felt behind his cap badge that doesn’t appear in the photo of the two soldiers in whites.  It’s almost certainly green, as in 1902 the SWB had the joyous event of having their prized green facings returned to them. That helps to date the photo accurately.

 

17 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Your man has at least five years good conduct service and is a marksman.

 

5 hours ago, adrianjohn said:

soldier’s surname is Pembridge, not Phillips as I originally wrote

 

There are no surviving service records for an Alfred Pembridge in the WO96 & WO97 series that I could spot. There are also no MiC’s in the Discovery catalogue for any Alfred Pembridge. However plenty of reasons why both could be true and yet your man still served with the South Wales Borderers in Peshawar in the period 1900-1902.

 

So looking at it as an exercise in genealogy, my starting positon would be that if it was taken in 1902 and he had five years old conduct then he had to be at least 23 – so latest year of birth is 1879.

 

And if it was taken in 1900 and he was a 12 year man having chosen to do the full 12 years in the colours and he was 26 at the time of enlistment, (which probably accounts for the then practical upper age for first time recruits) he would then be 38 and so born no earlier then 1872.

 

If you wanted to extend the scope of the exercise and have him down as a 21 year man, still a Private and having enlisted aged 26, in the last year of his service and the photo taken in 1900, well that takes you back to 1853.

 

And therein lies the problem. The General Registrars Office shows no Alfred Pembridge born in England & Wales between Q3 1846, (Alfred Pembridge, birth registered Hay, Breconshire) and Q1 1891, (Alfred Edgar A. Pembridge, birth registered Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire).

 

Usual caveats apply. Before the tightening of enforcement on individuals and the local authorities in 1872, compliance with civil birth registration varied enormously. So absense of a birth record doesn’t mean absense of a birth. And of course he may not have been born with the surname Pembridge, and could have been born outside England & Wales.

 

But the incidences of the number of Alfred Pembridge’s on the Census returns for England and Wales from 1891 onwards is remarkably consistant, and still no standout candidate for a man of the right age.

 

The Alfred Pembridge born 1846 in the Hay District was still with us on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. Aged 64 and by then a widower, he was living at 20 Castle Street, Hay. He doesn’t state how long he was married, but the marriage produced 7 children, of which 6 were then still alive.

 

On the 1901 Census, aged 55, he was recorded already living at Castle Street – so not in Peshawar. His wife Ann, was the same age. The marriage of an Alfred Pembridge to an Ann Matthews was recorded in the Hay District in Q2 1869.

 

On the 1891 Census, aged 44, he and Ann were recorded at 22 Castle Street. Children living with them were George, (20), Carrie, (14), James, (14) and Emily, (7). Adding to the mix on the 1881 Census were Sarah, (9), Louisa, (5), while Carrie (Caroline) is shown as aged 3 and James was 11 months. All the children were born Hay.

 

Likely birth records:-

 

George Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name tbc, registed Hay District Q2 1870.

 

Sarah Ann Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name Matthews, registed Hay District Q4 1872.

 

Minnie Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name Matthews, registed Hay District Q4 1874. The death of a Minnie Pembridge, aged under 1, was recorded in the Hay District, Q3 1875.

 

Louisa Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name Matthews, registed Hay District Q2 1876.

 

Caroline Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name tbc, registed Hay District Q4 1877.

 

James Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name Matthews, registed Hay District Q2 1880.

 

Emily Grace Pembridge, mothers’ maiden name tbc, registed Hay District Q1 1884.

 

That gives us candidates for the 7 children, 6 of whom were still alive according to father Alfred on the 1911 Census.

 

While looking for candidates for George and James in the WO96 and WO97 series and having drawn a blank, I came across an alternative. 5154 Henry George Pembridge, born Hay and then aged 18 years and 8 months, enlisted in the South Wales Borderers on the 1st January 1896. He was then aged 18 years and 8 months, and had previously served in the Militia. He attested on a 12 year term, 7 years in the Colours, 5 in the reserves. After initial training he was posted to the 1st Battalion on the 2nd October 1896 and seems to have remained with them until transferred to the Army Reserve 1903. Not so sure about the Good Conduct – he had a Lance Corporal stripe taken away and 1899 forfeited his Good Conduct Pay, (reinstated a year later). Nothing to indicate he qualified as a marksmen. He was in India “from” 22nd November 1897 to 11th(?) December 1903. Thos dates could included travel time. His next of kin was his siter, Hannah Cartwright, of Bell Bank, 21 Bear Street, Hay.

While a reservist he would marry a Jessie Belcher at Maindee(?),Newport, Monmouthshire on the 18th October 1905. They had a son Percival Belcher Pembridge, born Newport 23rd October 1906. His first term of engagement ended on the 31st December 1911.

 

A fresh pair of eyes may draw different conclusions

 

It does however prompt the question, what is the source for believing that he is an Alfred Pembridge, or even just an Alfred?

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 31 January , 2021 by PRC
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[Muerrisch]

"So looking at it as an exercise in genealogy, my starting positon would be that if it was taken in 1902 and he had five years old conduct then he had to be at least 23 – so latest year of birth is 1879."

 

Around the date of the photo Boy soldier service counted, and boys could enlist at 14 years.

[PRC]

34 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Around the date of the photo Boy soldier service counted, and boys could enlist at 14 years.

 

Take your point - so if we are looking at a 19 year old in 1902, that extends the date range for birth to 1883. That still doesn't bring in any new candidates as far as the birth records for England & Wales are concerned.

 

As a genealogy exercise it's more than possible to revise the criteria for the search, but based on the initial parameters and assuming I've not made a boo-boo, alarm bells would be ringing for me that this is not Alfred Pembridge because there is no likely Alfred Pembridge in the obvious civil records. Even a search of the Civil Death records up to 2007 for England & Wales, (end of the dataset currently available), shows only two Alfred Pembridge's  - the 1846 born one in 1917 (Hay District), and the 1891 born man in 1960 (Merthyr Tydfil District).

Maybe it's me looking in the wrong places, but for now I'd need some indication of how good the identification of the man in the picture actually is, particularly as it has already gone from Phillips to Pembridge.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 31 January , 2021 by PRC
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