AEF badge - help needed

[Gunner 87]

Hello. 

 

I am researching Joseph Weinzetl from Ohio who served with the AEF during WW1. The badge on his left arm would possibly suggest an artillery unit attached to the 82nd Division which corresponds to the shoulder patch.

 

Three artillery units served with this Division, the 319th, 320th and 321st though I cannot find any trace of the badge being worn. The Transport Passenger List from the US in 1918 and returning from France in 1919  show Joseph serving with HQ Company 326th Infantry Regiment who were also part of the 82nd. It is known that Joseph was at Marbache Sector, St Mihiel and Meuse - Argonne Offensives as were all the aforementioned units.

 

The US did issue similar badges for Gunner First Class between 1904 and 1913 though these were brass and worn on the chest. The badge also resembles that of the 102nd Artillery Regiment worn on the helmet though this unit served with the 26th (Yankee) Division and so does not sit with the 82nd shoulder badge.

 

Any opinions as to the identity or origin of the badge would be warmly received. many thanks.

 

@gordon 

 

@FROGSMILE

 

Edited 28 January , 2021 by Gunner 87

[FROGSMILE]

Perhaps @gordon92 or @4thGordonsmight have an informed view.

[Gunner 87]

22 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Perhaps @gordon92 or @4thGordonsmight have an informed view.

Thank you Frogsmile. 

 

[4thGordons]

1) I would agree that the unit patch is an 82nd Infantry Division Patch . A very similar version is reproduced in Keller and Keller (2002)

 

2) The other badge has me confused -I am not sure what it is at all!

It appears to be a cloth "trade" or "skills" patch but I can't work out what it might be.... It resembles a cannon but I am not entirely convinced, maybe also a limber or caisson? But I do not recall ever seeing a patch.

There was a metal chest badge for a swordsman which if I squint can make it look like this but again I don't believe I have ever seen a cloth example

The circle is very prominent - if not a wheel I wonder if it might be an O for observer? (there were similar) but not really like this.

 

Sorry just thinking out loud really for now

 

@new3.2 Ken - can you help?

Let me delve into my books!

Chris

 

[JOVE23]

@Gunner 87 would you mind if I posed this to a couple AEF specialist friends I have?

[FROGSMILE]

On 29/01/2021 at 01:05, JOVE23 said:

@Gunner 87 would you mind if I posed this to a couple AEF specialist friends I have?

I know that he is keen for all help as we’ve discussed it.  It looks like an artillery gun to me with the trail on the left and the gun facing right.  The shape/design is very similar to the painted  gun symbol on helmets of the 102 Fd Artillery.

Edited 30 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[new3.2]

Gunner & Chris-  The only thing I am sure of is the 82nd patch.  These old eyes can not ID the other.  I don't know if checking the State of Ohio WW1 soldier books would help.  The WW1 section of the US Militaria Forum has some good patch folk.  My 82nd uniform is HQ Inft., so no help there.

new3.2

[JOVE23]

From one of the AEF Experts:

 

Quote

I’ve got a feeling it’s a representation of the 37mm gun on its wheels. Units of the 82nd are known to have had their own “specialty” patches. Finding a profile of a vickers for MG units on that same spot on the sleeve is not uncommon in that division.

 

[new3.2]

The patch gun's barrel is much longer than the m/1916 Pateau (sp?.) gun.

new3.2

[4thGordons]

4 minutes ago, new3.2 said:

The patch gun's barrel is much longer than the m/1916 Pateau (sp?.) gun.

new3.2

I'm not sure -- the barrel here faces to the rear I think -- its the trail that is really long (coming to the front of the arm)

I can barely make out the barrel here, but what I see seems pretty short.

 

(unless I am misunderstanding all of this - which is entirely possible!)

 

I wondered if it was some sort of anti-tank gunners patch but a 37mm gunner would be more likely.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Here is the helmet symbol of the 102nd FA from the 26th Yankees Div mentioned above.  It’s an entirely different formation of course and I’m posting it merely to show the similarity of the design representing a gun, with its long straight trail and large wheel.  It seems an odd badge to be worn by an infantryman unless it was some kind of unit citation badge for capturing artillery pieces, which seems unlikely.

 

Edited 30 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner 87]

On 29/01/2021 at 01:05, JOVE23 said:

@Gunner 87 would you mind if I posed this to a couple AEF specialist friends I have?

 Hi JOVE23, yes, please do. That would be appreciated. 

[Gunner 87]

23 hours ago, new3.2 said:

Gunner & Chris-  The only thing I am sure of is the 82nd patch.  These old eyes can not ID the other.  I don't know if checking the State of Ohio WW1 soldier books would help.  The WW1 section of the US Militaria Forum has some good patch folk.  My 82nd uniform is HQ Inft., so no help there.

new3.2

 Thank you new3.2, will look at that forum. 

18 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

I'm not sure -- the barrel here faces to the rear I think -- its the trail that is really long (coming to the front of the arm)

I can barely make out the barrel here, but what I see seems pretty short.

 

(unless I am misunderstanding all of this - which is entirely possible!)

 

I wondered if it was some sort of anti-tank gunners patch but a 37mm gunner would be more likely.

 

 

 The soldier served with HQ Company 326th Infantry Regiment so an anti tank badge seems very plausible. Thank you. 

[new3.2]

AT- Perhaps, however, from my reading of regimental histories, the little 1916 37mm is storied for its use against machine guns in concrete bunkers.  Compared to the Brits and the French, the Germans had very little armor, even with the ones they captured.

new3.2

[Gunner 87]

3 minutes ago, new3.2 said:

AT- Perhaps, however, from my reading of regimental histories, the little 1916 37mm is storied for its use against machine guns in concrete bunkers.  Compared to the Brits and the French, the Germans had very little armor, even with the ones they captured.

new3.2

 That would fit with the soldier being in HQ Company as I'm sure, like us, that's where their specialised unit sat. I have registered with the US Military Form and will post when admin confirm the account. Thank you for your help, it's appreciated. 

[new3.2]

Gunner- Good luck on your continued search.

new3.2  (Ken Baumann)

[Gabelou]

The silhouette of the arm patch gun is quite similar to the French  37 TR ( for tir rapide) mle 1916 largely in use in US ID in 1918 :

long trial, rather small barel, small removable wheels used more for mooving than shooting. As mentionned by Gunner 87, mostly used against German MG pillboxes.

 

There was a speciality insigna in French army for 37 mm gunner but as far as I know he was introduced on the Twenties and slightly different.

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant!  I think that you have all definitely solved this conundrum.  Here are images of the 37mm infantry gun that do indeed match the design of the arm badge.  There was also a tripod mounted version.

 

For Gunner 87:  there is good information about its US usage here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_d'Infanterie_de_37_modèle_1916_TRP

 

Edited 31 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Gabelou]

Thanks for the compliment Sir... and for the pictures .

On the French army Tripod is the basic way of utilisation. The removable whells were used only for mooving the gun or on emergency use. 

Gabelou

[new3.2]

I have one of the ammunition boxes, it is really copied from the Browning MG box.  The m/1916 37mm is a rare bird in the US.

new3.2

[Gabelou]

If it is the case on the last picture, more from the (older) Hotchkiss box, who was later copied by Browning

[new3.2]

Indeed- same as the US copied the French m/1915 MG cart.  My post was more for US collectors who are more familiar with the Browning box in WW1 & WW2.

new3.2

[FROGSMILE]

It’s interesting that an “infantry gun” was a concept revisited from the 18th Century.  A weapon type that the infantryman at the 1759 Battle of Minden would have been equally familiar with.  Each infantry battalion had their own, integral detachment for close support.

Edited 2 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner 87]

On 31/01/2021 at 11:15, Gabelou said:

The silhouette of the arm patch gun is quite similar to the French  37 TR ( for tir rapide) mle 1916 largely in use in US ID in 1918 :

long trial, rather small barel, small removable wheels used more for mooving than shooting. As mentionned by Gunner 87, mostly used against German MG pillboxes.

 

There was a speciality insigna in French army for 37 mm gunner but as far as I know he was introduced on the Twenties and slightly different.

 Thank you @Gabelou and @FROGSMILE. My continued research has proved fruitless for an exact match online and this explanation seems very plausible. If this is a case of a badge specifically issued to the 82nd Division that may well explain it's rarity. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 Thank you @Gabelou and @FROGSMILE. My continued research has proved fruitless for an exact match online and this explanation seems very plausible. If this is a case of a badge specifically issued to the 82nd Division that may well explain it's rarity. 

Yes I think it’s likely to be specific to that division.  There was much development of uniform and insignia in the US Army over the WW1 period.  Some of it did not survive the war.

Edited 1 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE