Capt John Robert Ramsay MC (RFC)

[adrian 1008]

Another question !!!!

Where is  the LSGC medal ?

He has served in S Africa, 1898 /1902  in Oct 1907 we can place him as a Sgt Saving the airship 

In 1914 he is in France, In 1916 he returns to England and is discharged from the RAF in 1920 

Would he have been discharged after 1902 and then re engaged to be a Sgt in 1907

 

Sorry a Senior moment He would not qualify please disregard the question

 

Edited 1 December , 2020 by adrian 1008
Senior Moment !

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

I understand now thank you. 

when I bought the medals I was told this was one of the first MC s awarded to the RFC and that he was a friend of James McCudden

and they served together in Wiltshire, but there is no supporting evidence so far as I can see

In such a small organisation as the Air Battalion RE I would say that it’s certain that they knew each other.  McCudden’s father was RE, as was at least one of McCudden’s younger brothers.  McCudden himself enlisted as a Boy Soldier RE, probably in an artisan slot as he does not seem to have fitted any of the other Boy service categories.  Thus he would have been in one of the very earliest ‘apprentice-type’ schemes that were only just beginning to evolve (they did not commence in a pan-army way until 1923).  I mention all this purely because it paints the background as to how they probably knew each other. You would need more service history to ascertain if Netheravon (a place I know extremely well) was a specific link between them.

Edited 1 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

@adrian 1008

 

Thanks for alerting me to the book "A contemptible little flying Corp " yesterday as it was certainly new to me - as I replied to your PM there are two pictures of Sergeant Major "Ramsey" in there, as well as as mini-biography, all of which can be seen on Google Books. https://books.google.co.uk/books?redir_esc=y&id=O2G-BAAAQBAJ&q=Ramsay#v=onepage&q=Ramsey&f=false

 

On the picture on page 32,  titled Group photograph No.2 Concentration Camp at Netheravon, as well as Sergenat Major "Ramsey" there is also a Sergeant McCudden, service number 61. This is William Thomas James McCudden, according to his bio on page 68 the older brother of James McCudden VC. William also qualified as a pilot and went out with 3 Squadron (along with Ramsay) to France on the 13th August 1914. He was accidentally killed in an air accident in May 1915.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Peter, that is the brother that I was thinking of in my post above.  I know that James had another brother (perhaps younger but I'm now unsure) who I believe was also in the RFC, but I'm not sure if he was ever RE.  Basically the Mc Cuddens went from being a wholly RE family to an RFC family.

 

It's very interesting that you found photos of Ramsay and McCudden together at the famous Concentration in Netheravon.  I lived for two years in the officers' mess at Netheravon that still had the RFC wings above its entrance (just as with the RFC we had our unit photos taken under it) and several photos of the concentration plus various accidental landings were on the mess walls.  It was very evocative in the largely unchanged insides, especially the Billiard Room.

[adrian 1008]

Thats the connection...thank you thats where 3 sqn comes in another jigsaw piece !

 

i ve just ordered the book, and McCuddens book "Flying Fury." Both McCudden brothers died in air accidents James flew SE5A s from memory with ..... 57 sqn??

 

as he is seated next to the CO (Col Sykes) can one assume he was part of the Directing Staff

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Apparently John was the 'other brother' I was thinking of.  Also a pilot, he achieved 5 victories before the end of the war and was killed in action.  The only surviving, fourth brother, joined the RAF and died of illness in 1934.  One can only imagine the sadness of their father.  The McCuddens epitomise....Greater Love hath....

Edited 1 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

3 Sqn was formed in May 1912 from No2 Aeroplane Coy Royal Engineers

It went to France (St Omer) on 12th Oct 1914

Sgt Ramsay must have gone out ahead as he has the 22August clasp on his Mons star

 

 

[PRC]

5 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

It went to France (St Omer) on 12th Oct 1914

 

Wikipedia, so not the most reliable source, quotes, On 13 August 1914, 2, 3, and 4 squadrons, comprising 60 machines, departed from Dover for the British Expeditionary Force in France and 5 Squadron joined them a few days later. The aircraft took a route across the English Channel from Dover to Boulogne, then followed the French coast to the Bay of the Somme and followed the river to Amiens. When the BEF moved forward to Mauberge the RFC accompanied them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Flying_Corps

 

They do not have a source for that statement but it would tie in with the bio for William Thomas James McCudden. The ground crews, of which I suspect John Robert Ramsay was part, would have followed on within a short space of time - if indeed they hadn't already gone out to get things set up, as the MiC shows he landed in France on the 12th August 1914.

 

I may also may be making 2+2=5, but one the later addresses on the RAF records is Bridge Farm, Martlesham, Suffolk. I suspect that may have been part of a posting to RAF Martlesham Heath, which from 1917 was the home of the Aeroplane Experimental Station, (from 1924 the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment). A great deal of work was done there in improving technologies like ground \air communication and photo reconnaisance, both areas where those early deployed squadrons had to almost literally "wing it" in August and September 1914. Could these have been areas where Sergeant Major Ramsay made the telling contributions that led to his three M.I.D's and so a possible explanation for why a M.C citation might be elusive. One wonders what secrets his Army file at Kew holds

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Matlock1418]

28 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

3 Sqn was formed in May 1912 from No2 Aeroplane Coy Royal Engineers

It went to France (St Omer) on 12th Oct 1914

Sgt Ramsay must have gone out ahead as he has the 22August clasp on his Mons star

Don't quite understand your last sentence ???

The clasp to the 1914 Star was 5th AUG. – 22nd NOV. 1914

Serjeant-Major Ramsey went out 12-8-1914 [from his MIC] = probably not surprising as aircraft generally required an advanced party to sort out the aerodrome and related facilities before they arrived - and he seems to have been well qualified to undertake this role.  Edit; as Peter has just pointed out ahead of me.

:-) M

Edited 1 December , 2020 by Matlock1418
edit

[adrian 1008]

my mistake got my dates wrong

 

I meant to say 5th August !!

[FROGSMILE]

This is the most interesting group of medals that I've seen discussed in some time.  I'm surprised that the RAF Museum or Museum of Army Flying did not snap them up!

[PRC]

On 30/11/2020 at 07:22, George Rayner said:

Is this them on 1939 register?

Ramsay household

(2 people)

First name(s)	Last name(s)	DOB	Sex	Occupation	Marital status	Schedule	Schedule Sub Number
John R	Ramsay	16 Nov 1871	Male	Retired Army Officer Equipmennt Officer Rap	Married	109	1
Gladys L	Ramsay	05 Apr 1887	Female	Unpaid Domestic Duties	Married	109	2

 

Thanks George.

 

Right any remaining interested parties, pour yourself a stiff drink of your choice, choose a comfortable chair, and don your thinking caps.

 

The son John Desmond Ramsay is shown on CWGC as Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve so could well have been mobilised at the time the National Register was taken and hence not in the household. (Although London Gazette only shows him as a Temporary Flight Sergeant when he was made a Probationary Pilot Officer in August 1942).

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35741/supplement/4440/data.pdf

 

Also tends to suggest John Desmond was their only child.

 

I notice there is a year difference between date of birth on the 1939 Register, (1871) versus the RAF records (1872) for John Robert - wonder if that is just a transcription error.

 

Looking for records of his wife, Gladys Lydia Ramsay, nee Allen, born 5th April 1887:-

 

The birth of a Gladys Lydia Allen was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Strand District of London in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1887. The GRO site would need to be checked for the mothers' maiden name.

 

On the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a 5 year old Gladys L. Allen, born Long Acre, London, who was recorded living at 53 Long Acre, Strand, London. This was the household of her parents Lawrence P., (aged 34, Dining Room Proprietor, born City of London) and Elizabeth, (aged 33, born Knightsbridge, London). The couples other children living with them are Sidney L, (6) and Violet, (2) – both born Long Acre.

• The birth of a Sidney Laurence Allen was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Strand District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1884.

• The birth of a Violet Allen was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Strand District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1888.

When the 1891 Census was taken on the 5th April 1891 that would have made Sidney aged 6, Gladys Lydia, aged 4, (not 5, and it was her birthday!) and Violet aged 2. However no other likely candidate in the birth records for England & Wales.

 

The death of a 15 year old Sidney Laurence Allen was recorded in the Lewisham District in Q1 1900.

He was buried at Lambeth on the 6th January 1900.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGZP-C79K

 

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales the Allen family were recorded residing at 2 Lenham Gardens, Sutton, Surrey. Father Lawrence P, (44, born London City) was living on own means. He lives there with wife Elizabeth, (43, born Knightsbridge) and children Gladys L., (13, born Long Acre), Violet, (12, born Long Acre) and Doris V., (1, born Forest Hill, London).

• The birth of a Doris Victoria Allen, mothers maiden name Pearmain, was recorded in the Lewisham District of London in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1899. (Forest Hill is part of the London Borough of Lewisham).

The marriage of a Violet Allen to a Sidney M Higgs was recorded in the Epsom District of Surrey in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1910. This is only a possible match for the sister of Gladys Lydia Allen that would explain her not appearing on the 1911 Census as Violet Allen.

 

By the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales the Allen family were recorded living at “Kenilworth”, Salisbury Avenue, Cheam, Surrey. Parents Lawrence Peel Allen, (54, living on Private Means) and Elizabeth, (53) have been married 33 years and have had 8 children, of which sadly only three were then still alive. Still single and living with them are their daughters Gladys Lydia, (24, born Strand, London) and Doris Victoria, (aged 12, born Forest Hill, London).

• The marriage of a “Laurence” Peel Allen to an Elizabeth Pearmain was registered in the St Giles District of London in Q4 1878.

Other possible children of this couple I could identify.

• The birth of an Amy Maud Allen, mothers’ maiden name Pearman, was registered in the St Saviour Southwark District in Q2 1880. (L.P. Allen, an Easting House Keeper and his wife Elizabeth were recorded living in the City of London District with his brother Samuel, also an Eating House Keeper, on the 1881 Census. There are no children of theirs with them). The death of an Amy Maud Allen, aged under 1, was recorded in the City of London District in Q1 1881.

• The birth of an Eleanor Gertie Allen, mothers’ maiden name Pearman, was registered in the Strand District in Q4 1882. The death of an Eleanor Gertie Allen, aged 1, was recorded in the Strand District in Q2 1883.

• The birth of a Harold Holloway Allen, mothers’ maiden name Pearman, was registered in the Strand District in Q3 1890. The death of a Harold Holloway Allen, aged under 1, was recorded in the Strand District in Q1 1891.

So that accounts for 7 of the children and unless the mysterious 8th child eluded both the Census taker and has a difficult to track down birth record, it would seem likely that Violet Higgs, nee Allen was the third child still alive at the time the 1911 Census was taken.

 

Elsewhere on this census the 22 year old Violet Higgs, born Strand, London, was recorded living at 138a Brownhill Road, Catford, London S.E, Kent. She lives there with her husband of under 1 year, Sidney Marcellus Higgs, a 27 year old Stockbrokers Clerk, born Twickenham, Middlesex. So far the couple have had no children. Sidney, born 17th May 1886, at Twickenham, serving as a Royal Naval Reservist rating during World War 1. Enlisting in September 1915 his statement of Seamans Services as J44090 end with a transfer to the Special Trawler Reserve on the 9th August 1916. Renumbered SD 4985 there are further details here:-

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8576251

His next of kin was given as his wife Violet Higgs, of Carshalton Road, Sutton, Surrey. (see probate in 1916 for father – possible Violet had moved back in with her parents). I can’t see a reference to any other dependants.

• The death of a Lawrence P Allen, aged 59, was recorded in the Epsom District of Surrey in Q2 1916. The 1916 Probate Calendar records that Lawrence Peel Allen, of Melrose, Carshalton Road, Sutton, Surrey died on the 23rd April 1916. Probate was granted to the widow Elizabeth Allen.

• The death of an 84 year old Elizabeth Allen was recorded in the Surrey North Eastern District in Q3 1941. The 1942 Probate Calendar records that a widow Elizabeth Allen, of 44 Gledstanes Road, West Kensington, London, died at 96 Carshalton Road, Sutton, Surrey, on the 2nd August 1941. Probate was granted to Gladys Lydia Ramsay, wife of John Robert Ramsay.

A possible marriage of Doris V Allen occurred in the Penzance District in Q3 1921, Her husband was an Ernest L. Andrews. Similarly it may just be a coincidence that the death of a Doris Victoria Andrews, born 6th August 1899, was recorded in the Fulham District in Q2 1984. Unfortunately no obvious Probate and no stand-out candidates for children of the couple – and there are a lot of children registered with the surname Andrews, mothers’ maiden name Allen.

• The 1939 National Register records a Doris V Andrews, a married woman born 6th August 1899, as the second person in the household at 44 Gledstanes Road, West Kensington, London. She was carrying out unpaid domestic duties. The first person in the household is almost certainly her husband, the married man Ernest L Andrews, born 9th June 1896 and a Theatre Technician and Stage Carpenter. The third and final person is the elderly widowed invalid, Elizabeth Allen, born 9th June 1857.

Well at least that is what the transcription shows on FindMyPast, but the document hints at something different.

 

(Extract from the 1939 Register sourced courtesy of FindMyPast)

Not quite sure what that means as we have householders 1, 2, and 3 but a mysterious 4th person there who isn't a member of their household amd is listed after the husband but before the wife.

 

As this address is recorded on the probate calendar entry in 1942 for Elizabeth Allen, it seems very likely we have found the right Doris, but looks like no children.

 

Turning back to her sister Violet, last encountered as the wife of a serving Royal Naval Reservist Sidney Marcellus Higgs, a search of his siblings showed Marcellus was a common middle name for all six of them, both male and female. So while there are a number of children registered with the surname Higgs, mothers’ maiden name Allen, principally in the war years  and through into the twenties at Newhaven, there is one possibility worthy of further investigation. The birth of a Richard M Higgs, mothers maiden name Allen, was recorded in the Richmond District of Surrey in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1915. There is no death recorded for that man in England & Wales in records that run up to 2007. And like Violet and Sidney, there is no match for Richard on the 1939 Register either. However while searching I came across one possibility for a match that given what prompted this search in the first place would too irresistible not to mention.  Squadron Leader 53148 Richard Marcellus Higgs, Distinguished Flying Cross, 97 Squadron, was shot down and killed over Germany on the 23rd September 1944.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2032176/RICHARD MARCELLUS HIGGS/

There is no age or family details on CWGC, and no entry in the probate register.  A member of the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve he could have been mobilised on the outbreak of war, and that is why he does not appear in the 1939 Register. Of course he could be any age and come from anywhere. And if the point is to track down still living relatives he would appear to be a non-starter whether he was a son of Sidney and Violet or not.

• There is no obvious death for Violet Higgs in England & Wales or remarriage.
• Sidney M died aged 69 in the Carmarthen District of Carmarthenshire in Q2 1953. The 1953 Probate Calendar records that Sidney Marcellus Higgs was living at Prewylfa, Penybont, Carmarthen, died 4th April 1953 and his legal executor was an Ethel Florence Gertrude Higgs, spinster, (and Sidneys’ sister). So it would seen Violet Allen was not in the picture at that point.

Rounding this generation of the family off, the death of the 71 year old Gladys L. Ramsay was recorded in the Surrey North-Eastern District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1958.

 

The 1958 Probate Calendar records that Gladys Lydia Ramsay of 21 Grove Avenue, Sutton, Surrey, a widow, died 7th June 1958 at St Helier Hospital, Carshalton, Surrey. Probate was granted at the Lewes Court on the 20th June 1958 to Doris Victoria Andrews, (wife of Ernest Llewellyn Andrews) and Kathleen Mary Tucker, (wife of Ernest Tucker)

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Ramsay&yearOfDeath=1958&page=2#calendar

 

So it doesn’t look like the Allen line continued at all. The actual will for Gladys may gove more details about who she left her estate to which in turn  might a clue as to whether there were and descendants I have missed.

 

I’ll take another look at the Ramsay line and see if I can progress that.

 

Regards,

Peter

[helpjpl]

On 01/12/2020 at 17:30, PRC said:

@adrian 1008

 

Thanks for alerting me to the book "A contemptible little flying Corp " yesterday as it was certainly new to me - as I replied to your PM there are two pictures of Sergeant Major "Ramsey" in there, as well as as mini-biography, all of which can be seen on Google Books. https://books.google.co.uk/books?redir_esc=y&id=O2G-BAAAQBAJ&q=Ramsay#v=onepage&q=Ramsey&f=false

 

 

The Netheravon photos were published in Flight magazine 10 July 1914.

 

1.  See my post of 30 July here:

2.  And here:

https://archive.org/details/Flight_International_Magazine_1914-07-10-pdf/page/n1/mode/2up

 

Magazine archive 1914-1918:

https://archive.org/details/Flight_International_Magazine?sort=-date&&and[]=year%3A"1918"&and[]=year%3A"1917"&and[]=year%3A"1916"&and[]=year%3A"1915"&and[]=year%3A"1914"

 

JP

 

 

Edited 4 December , 2020 by helpjpl

[adrian 1008]

I have now discovered the attestation papers and full service record for John Robert Ramsay, and am just waiting on some advice to ensure I do not breach any rules either from this forum or another place before publishing. Apologies if you have got there before me !

 

It appears that John Ramsay attested on 3rd july 1897 age 24 and 7 months and gave his occupation as sign writer and painter, it also states under Question 11 that he was discharged from the Royal Artillery "at his own request on payment of £10"

 

I ve not seen this before, should I now look to RA records to go further back or is this an admin "anomaly" ? 

 

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

I have now discovered the attestation papers and full service record for John Robert Ramsay, and am just waiting on some advice to ensure I do not breach any rules either from this forum or another place before publishing. Apologies if you have got there before me !

 

It appears that John Ramsay attested on 3rd july 1897 age 24 and 7 months and gave his occupation as sign writer and painter, it also states under Question 11 that he was discharged from the Royal Artillery "at his own request on payment of £10"

 

I ve not seen this before, should I now look to RA records to go further back or is this an admin "anomaly" ? 

 

No not an anomaly, it seems certain that he had prior service with the RA.  Once a man commenced his engagement (contract of employment) if he wished to be released from it he had to pay a fee.  Some men left simply because they didn’t enjoy it, but others left because of family, or other circumstances.

Edited 5 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[BullerTurner]

It’s worth remembering that the MC, as initially instituted was for both gallantry and meritorious service, not just gallantry.  So a specific act of gallantry was not required for the very first tranches of awards.  The first 100 or so included about 25% to WOs, and a percentage of those were of this type of award.

[adrian 1008]

I have now discovered that  John Robert Ramsay joined the Royal Artillery in 1896, and was discharged after 90 days service

 

I think I am ready to write up his military service, following the fantastic support from colleagues, but unsure if it should be here or under another forum as some information relates to service prior to 1914

 

Your guidance appreciated

Edited 8 December , 2020 by adrian 1008
spelling

[PRC]

5 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

I have now discovered that  John Robert Ramsay joined the Royal Artillery in 1896, and was discharged after 90 days service

 

I think I am ready to write up his military service, following the fantastic support from colleagues, but unsure if it should be here or under another forum as some information relates to service prior to 1914

 

Your guidance appreciated

 

It frequently amazes me what starts to turn up when you have a few more bits of the jigsaw that enables a more detailed search.

 

I would suggest you provide us with a transcribed history of his pre-war service and salient details like age, next of kin, etc. I'd also suggest include any physical description - there are forum members for example who have some great skills with colourising black and white pictures so those details would assist them, as well as helping to firm up that that the right man has been identified in the pictures.

 

This will all go to provide a more rounded picture of the man who served in the Great War and is greatly relevant to understanding the career path the senior NCO's who were there at the founding of the RFC took - the ones who would be so important to getting it up and running and literally keeping it up in the air in the early months of the war. It will also give other forum members a chance to add things where appropriate and suggest other profitable lines of enquiry. It will be part of fleshing out this mans story so whether the medals come together or you decide at some point in the future, for example, to donate the medal to the RAF Museum, there will be a wealth of supporting detail available.

 

It will also increase the chances that at some future the holder of his other medals, doing a google search, might come across this thread and so lead to the medals being reunited - one of your stated aims for starting your thread. Obviously if there are questions about his Boer War Service or late Victorian army organisation \ uniform \ insignia, etc, then you can start a separate thread in the "Skindles" sub-forum to address those and cross-reference the two threads.

 

Just a suggestion but I believe that would keep you within the forum rules,

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Edited 8 December , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with Peter and feel that you have a relatively unique piece of history in the pieces concerned.  There cannot have been very many other ranks who took such an important part in the transition from army aviation to RAF.  As a general point this forum is the best that I know for taking a pragmatic and nuanced approach to things out of period.  It generally recognises that late Victorian and Edwardian service often led into service during WW1.  Even when a subject is before that, or between the wars leading up to WW2, the moderators invariably allow one or more posts before locking the thread, but at the same time inviting further conversation via private messaging.  In that way they portray a very welcoming forum with sensibly applied rules.  I think it’s an admirable policy and one that promotes loyalty.

Edited 8 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

Before i write this up, recognising the fantastic support from colleagues, could I be pointed in the direction of the operational record for 3 Sqn RFC

 

Thanks 

[Matlock1418]

38 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

could I be pointed in the direction of the operational record for 3 Sqn RFC

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28226/28226-h/28226-h.htm#page198 

For early period - quite a few references to No. 3 Squadron R.F.C. in:

HISTORY OF THE GREAT WAR
BASED ON OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS
BY DIRECTION OF THE HISTORICAL SECTION OF
THE COMMITTEE OF IMPERIAL DEFENCE

THE WAR IN THE AIR
Being the Story of
The part played in the Great War
by the Royal Air Force

VOL. I

BY

WALTER RALEIGH
OXFORD
THE CLARENDON PRESS
1922

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4082018

History of 3 Squadron, R.A.F.
Reference:    AIR 1/687/21/20/3
Description:    History of 3 Squadron, R.A.F.
Date:    1912-1921
Unfortunately this record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ps=60&_srt=3&_q="3+Squadron+RFC"

And plenty of other stuff at TNA, diaries and rolls etc.  - and similarly I guess the trouble will be in getting to see it.

:-/ M

[adrian 1008]

The story so far. I am grateful to colleagues for all the advice and support in compiling this summary of a pioneer of aviation 

 

John Robert Ramsay MC RFC

 

John Robert Ramsay was born on 16/11/1871 in Bermondsey Surrey to parents James Ramsay Born 1842, and Helen Ramsay (nee Smith). There is an older brother Robert James Ramsay listed who was 18 months old at the time of the 1871 census

 

It appears that his mother Helen died in the second quarter of 1873 (1)

 

In 1881 John Ramsay is listed as a scholar aged 9 living in Arthur Rd Lambeth, His father James has now re married a Jessie Emma Ramsay (nee Lauder) (2)

 

In 1891 John now aged 19 is living as a boarder in a house in Albany Rd Camberwell, his occupation is given as Sign writer /painter and decorator. (3)

 

John is missing from the 1901 Census as he is serving in S Africa

 

John is shown on the 1911 Census but the entry is struck through with the comment “In Army with a balloon unit” This was the first census that was completed by the head of the household and errors were common, hence the strike through

 

On 26/08/1896 John joins the Royal Artillery at Woolwich as Gunner 16243 John Ramsay.

 

On Attestation he is aged 23 yrs 9 months weighs 142lbs and is 5ft 10 ½ ins tall. He has a fresh complexion, blue eyes, brown hair, two scars are noted on his forehead, He is considered fit for Army Service (5)

 

On 01/11/1896 He is transferred to the RHA but on the 25/11/1896 he is discharged, no reason is given. He has served 92 days, a next of kin is given as an Uncle (John Smith living in Rotherhithe West Sussex) Presumably his mothers’ brother (6)

 

His return to civilian life is short lived, On 3^rd July 1897 John rejoins, but this time as Pte 1015   J Ramsay Royal Engineers, again at Woolwich. Q 11 of his attestation states “Discharged Royal Artillery at his own request on payment of £10” (7)

 

His medical remains the same with the exception of a weight of 136 lbs. John presumably undergoes basic training and is promoted Lance Corporal on 05/05/1898 Second Corporal 01/01/1900. (8)

 

On 10/03/1900 He departs for South Africa with 3^rd Balloon section, 9^th Coy RE, returning 05/12/1901 and was awarded the Queens South Africa Medal (QSA) with Clasps Orange Free State. Cape Colony. Transvaal and South Africa 1901 (8)

 

From Dec 1901 John is home based, undertaking a Musketry course in Nov 1902 before departing for Malta on 19/12/1903 with his Balloon Unit remaining there until 19/05/1904.

 

On his return his unit forms part of the Air Battalion RE, John remains based at home until 17/11/1904 when he is posted to Gibraltar remaining there until 11/04/1905

 

In Oct 1907 John Ramsay oversees the ground party covering the flight of the “Nulli Secondus” an airship making its inaugural journey from Farnborough in Hampshire to London. The Airship is moored overnight at Crystal Palace, and a storm blows up threatening to destroy the airship.

 

Ramsay leads his party and personally opens the vent valves to release the Hydrogen, but it is not escaping quickly enough, so Sgt Ramsay ties a knife to a pole and slashes the gas bags as well as slashing the hydrogen sacks and saving the airship from total destruction. An article in the Times on the 11^th Oct pays tribute to his actions (9)

 

In Dec 1907 Ramsay attends a Balloon Course and is noted as being “Skilled” by the Balloon School Commandant. He then appears to be posted to Netheravon on Salisbury Plain, with the Air Battalion. Whilst here he works alongside William McCudden the older brother of James McCudden a later Air Ace and holder of the VC.

 

In fact James joins William at Netheravon, after 1910 both James and John Ramsay have a keen interest in motorcycles, (10)

 

On the formation of the RFC Sgt John Ramsay is posted to 3 Squadron along with James McCudden who was an Engine Fitter /Rigger The older brother William has qualified as a pilot and joins 3 Sqn (11)

 

August 1914 Sgt Maj John Ramsay goes to France as part of the Logistical ground support with 3 Sqn initially stopping at an airfield near Amiens, 3 Sqn are then posted to Maubeuge

 

There then followed a series of withdrawals ahead of the advancing German Army, some taking place at very short notice.

 

During this retreat Sgt Maj Ramsay is mentioned in dispatches for “Untiring zeal and energy in performance of his duties” (12)

 

3 Sqn are eventually posted to St Omer, but the stay is short lived and they move to a field near Gonneham this was a basic field that had 12 tonnes of cinders dumped on it to make a Runway. The weather was very cold with frequent gales and heavy rain. Accommodation was under canvas and aircraft servicing took place in the open

 

On 1^st Jan 1915 Sgt Maj Ramsay is awarded the Military Cross “For gallant and distinguished service in the field” (possibly one of 3 MC s awarded to the RFC on 01/01/1915) (13)

 

In Feb 1915 he is commissioned as temp 2^nd Lt. On 12/03/1915 a serious incident occurred whilst arming a Morane aircraft. Two Melinite bombs detonated prematurely killing 11 men including Capt Cholmondeley, a number of  Senior NCOs  and injuring many more. Two days later John Ramsay is sent on leave from 16/03/15 to 30/03/15. (14)

 

On his return to France, 3 sqn are moved to Auchel, Ramsay is again promoted to T Capt in August 1915 and again mentioned in dispatches in Nov 1915, possibly for his actions around the incident above. By the end of 1915 John Ramsay is now 44 yrs old and his health is starting to fail.

 

Between Jan and March 1916 John Ramsay marries Gladys Lydia Allen and she lives in Copthorne Surrey whilst John is away in France (15)

 

In April 1916 he is judged “unfit for army service for 2 months” this is then extended by another 6 months in August 1916, he is sent on sick leave and is permanently unfit for service in France. It is speculation as to the nature of the illness;

 

He is now 45 yrs old and has lived under canvas since 1914.

 

Did he contract some illness whilst serving in S Africa?

 

Did the incident when the bombs exploded have some psychological effect?

In May of 1917 John Ramsay is deemed permanently unfit and “capable of Light Duties only” with effect from 12/12/17 (16)

The now Capt Ramsay is posted home to England as Quartermaster RFC as part of 11 wing and him and wife Gladys move to Suffolk near Martlesham Heath, where the RFC has an experimental Unit

 

In 1917 and 1918 Capt Ramsay is listed in “Officers of the British Army” under the chapter Quartermasters. He is further listed in 1919 as an Officer in the Royal Air Force.

 

In 1919 John and Gladys have a son John Desmond Ramsay

 

In August 1920 John Ramsay is admitted to hospital with Tuberculosis remaining as an inpatient for one week. He is then discharged from the Royal Air Force to pension having served 23 yrs.

 

The family move to Sutton in Surrey.

 

John Ramsay appears in the 1939 census and is shown as a Retired Army Officer (Equipment) during WW2 he becomes an air raid warden.

 

His son John Desmond Ramsay follows his father into the RAF and qualifies as a fighter pilot.

 

He is killed in action over Italy on 10.03.1944 flying a spitfire with 87 Sqn, John Desmond Ramsay is commemorated on the Malta memorial (17)

 

John died in October 1948 having been a pioneer of early aviation and awarded one of the very first Military Cross s possibly the 3^rd such award to the RFC but where are the rest of the group?

 

What was the illness that rendered him unfit for front line service?

 

There is nothing to suggest a gradual deterioration as with some Chronic Respiratory conditions.

 

It would appear that his father died at a relatively young age. (his NOK on enlistment is given as an Uncle ) perhaps there was some familial condition, but John Ramsay lived to the age of 76.

 

Please check and challenge this history, I m learning so much.

 

I am indebted to many forum members for their help support and encouragement in this fascinating journey.

 

References

1 1871 Census (Ancestry)

2 1881 Census (Ancestry)

3 1891 Census (Ancesrty)

4 1911 Census (Ancestry)

5  Attestation Papers (Find my Past & Fold 3)

6  Attestation Papers (FMP & Fold3)

7 Short Service Enlistment papers (FMP & Fold 3)

8 Army Service Record (FMP & Fold 3)

9 GWF post from PRC

10 Flying Fury James McCudden VC ( Pub Spitfire Press)

11 A Contemptible Little Flying Corp I McInnes & J V Webb (Pub The London Stamp Exchange)

12 London Gazette 20/11/1914

13 London Gazette 01/01/1915

14 Flying Fury James McCudden VC ( Pub Spitfire Press)

15 Births Marriages & Deaths (Ancestry)

16 Army Service Record (FMP & Fold 3)

17 www.cwgc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 December , 2020 by adrian 1008
spelling

[adrian 1008]

The Museum of Army Flying have searched their records and have produced one more document in connection with Capt J Ramsay MC.

 

London Gazette supplement showing moved to HP list ?? Hospital list. It also shows him as "the Hon "

 

Is this a typo...... or another person ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

 

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

London Gazette supplement showing moved to HP list ?? Hospital list. It also shows him as "the Hon "

 

Is this a typo...... or another person ?

I can't explain as well as others may be able to.

h.p. list = Half Pay list - basically going rather less active, when suffering ill-health and seemingly often towards retirement.

Qr-Mr and Hon. Lt. = Quartermaster and Honorary Lieutenant - seems a quite common appointment/rank [?] for more mature Warrant Officers and aged junior officers

... Now I wait for others to better explain the niceties!

I think it is probably the same man - not a typo.

:-) M

 

Edited 26 January , 2021 by Matlock1418