Capt John Robert Ramsay MC (RFC)

[adrian 1008]

Colleagues

 

I have an MC  to the above dated 1915

I attach some copy documents, but dont really know what they are or what they tell me !

What I believe to be correct, but please check and challenge

John Robert Ramsay born 16 Nov 1872 

Saw service in the Boer war ( I have his miniatures MC. QSA Clasps SA1901 TR &CC) 1914 star BWM VM)

He either stayed with the Army or re enlisted.... probably re enlisted as there is no LSGC

My handwritten scribbles from a few years ago make reference to an Airship named Nulli Secundus,  

Looking at the minatures he went to France in 1914, there is no bar to the 1914 star

The MC was gazette'd Jan 1st 1915, but for what I dont know and as a Sgt Major RFC

He married Gladys Linda (Lydia) and lived in Sutton in Surrey

It appears he returned to England in 1916, but dont know why ? Flying Instructor ? injured

His son John Ramsay was KIA with 87Sqn  in March 1944 and John died in 1948

It would be great to reunite this lonely MC and fill in the gaps

As always your assistance appreciated

 

 

Edited 29 November , 2020 by adrian 1008
spelling

[FROGSMILE]

I’m not sure that the second and third page relates to the same man.  The first page shows initial service in early 1918, as Lieutenant and Quartermaster RFC, before becoming RAF in April 1918.  The second page refers to initial commissioned service in March 1915 and then “ill health” limiting service (placed on light duties) in 1917.  However, the latter makes clear earlier service as there’s an entitlement to the “Mons Star 1914” mentioned.

Edited 29 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

Further research today has thrown me into confusion !

 

In a publication Officers of the British Army   (P1714a) under Quartermasters his DOB is given a 03/12/1872, on the scanned document added to the original post his DOB is 16/11/1872

 

I have also now discovered two pension cards relating to him giving an address in Ramsgate. 

This is further confirmed by a 1930 Ediths Directory showing Ramsgate

 

His son Flt Lt  John Desmond Ramsay was Killed in action 10.03.44 with 87 sqn and is commemorated on the Malta memorial

 

The announcement of his death gives his parents address as Sutton Surrey..... It does not say "the late" Cpt JR Ramsay MC..... can I assume he was alive when his son died ?

 

[adrian 1008]

I have his minatures , which include a Mons star BWM and VM.... thats my challenge have I confused two individuals ?

 

I dont know what the documents scanned mean... also presenting them on their sides is not the best, but dont know how to add them as attachments

[Matlock1418]

23 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

I have his minatures , which include a Mons star BWM and VM.... thats my challenge have I confused two individuals ?

There is a fourth page in his service file - seemingly an early one.

Image courtesy of the The National Archives

This refers to a J, Ramsay - looking in the bottom right corner there are some references to London Gazette, MiD & MC

Checking these I found a Serjeant-Major J. RAMSAY, 3, RFC (Military Wing)

With a MiD in October 1914

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28942/supplement/8347 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28945/page/8379 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29001/supplement/10536

and a MC in Jan 1915

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29024/supplement/8 and

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/12759/page/45

 

Checking IWM's LOTFWW finds:

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/3652325 = as John RAMSAY - Serjeant-Major, Quarter Master & Lieutenant and Captain

Then checking TNA for his MIC finds: 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4775838 [also on Ancestry] = John RAMSAY - Serjeant-Major, Quarter, Quarter Master & Lieutenant and Captain MC, 1914 Star and clasp, MiD Emblem, BWM & VM - France 12.8.1914, Commissioned 1.3.1915

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29108/supplement/2830

"ROYAL FLYING CORPS. Military Wing. The undermentioned Serjeant-Majors to be Quartermasters, with the honorary rank of Lieutenant: — Dated 1st March, 1915. John Ramsay"

 

Do these help?

:-) M

 

Edited 30 November , 2020 by Matlock1418
Added LG commission link, further added LG for MC link

[Matlock1418]

Looking at the RAF Museum's StoryVault turns up a card  for RAMSAY, J.R. (John Robert), Flying Officer

Record date: 6 August 1920 - Discharged Other

Image courtesy of RAF Museaum http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/ramsay-j.r.-john-robert

No record for an earlier flying accident.

In 1916 he would have been 44 - for field service positively getting on!

I suspect the earlier return to the UK was likely on other health grounds and then into stores as a Lieutenant QM

:-) M

 

Edit: Note in 1920 prior to discharge he was suffering from Phthisis [Tuberculosis]

Edited 30 November , 2020 by Matlock1418
Added image and edit = Phthisis

[FROGSMILE]

If he was commissioned as a Lieutenant and Quartermaster then he was never intended for flying duties at all.  He appears to have been a logistics related officer throughout.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Checking these I found a Serjeant-Major J. RAMSAY, 3, RFC (Military Wing)

With a MiD in October 1914

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28942/supplement/8347 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28945/page/8379 

and a MC in Jan 1915

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/12759/page/45

 

 

As the Military Cross was only introduced in January 1915, it could well be that it was awarded for the same thing he was previously Mentioned in Despatches for. That Edinburgh Gazette posting looks like one of the big catch-ups that was done.

 

6 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

He either stayed with the Army or re enlisted.... probably re enlisted as there is no LSGC

 

If he was still in the Army on the 2nd April 1911 then very likely he is going to be picked up by the 1911 Census of England & Wales. That included members of the Armed Forces stationed pretty much anywhere in the world other than those covered by the Census of Scotland or the Census of Ireland.

 

The Royal Flying Corps didn't come into being until April 1912, and the first unit didn't join it until a month later, so again if he was serving in April 1911 you might well be looking at one of the Royal Engineers units that was it's precursor.

His Service Number with the RFC is "3", so there right from the birth of the Corps and so almost certainly serving at that point.

 

However there are no candidates on that Census, plus there is no John Robert Ramsay or Ramsey recorded as born in England & Wales in 1872 (+/- 2 years).

 

So what else is known about him, (well at least by me!).

From page 2 of his RFC\RAF record it looks like in 1915 he was living in Rotherhite and his next of kin was his uncle, a Mr J Smith - so John was unmarried or widowed.

On page 1 in 1918 he has a wife living first Copthorne, Surrey, then Sutton, Surrey and finally Bridge Farm, Martlesham.

The CWGC page for their son John Desmond Ramsay shows him as aged 25 when he died on the 10th March 1944. He was the Son of Capt. John R. Ramsay, M.C., and of Gladys Lydia Ramsay, of Sutton, Surrey. (So born circa 1918/1919)

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1533093/JOHN DESMOND RAMSAY/

The 1945 Probate Calendar shows John Desmond Ramsay of 21 Grove Avenue, Surrey, died on war service. His legal executor was John Robert Ramsay, retired Captain H.M Forces.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Ramsay&yearOfDeath=1945&page=1#calendar

No likely probate for a John Robert Ramsay who died in 1948.

 

From that:-

The marriage of a John R. Ramsay to a Gladys L. Allen was recorded in the Lewisham District of London in the January to March Quarter, (Q1), of 1916.

Possible children of the couple.

The birth of a John D. Ramsay, mothers' maiden name Allen was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Southampton District in Q3 1918.

Less likely. The birth of an Alfred J H Ramsay, mothers' maiden Allen, was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Carlisle District in Q4 1926.

 

Other snippets picked up along the way.

 

Became known for saving the Nulli Secundus airship when it was moored at Crystal Palace. During a storm on 10th October 1907 when it was breaking away from its mooring and after opening the escape valves he tied a knife on to a pole and cut the balloon open to prevent its destruction.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/John_Ramsey

 

Sergeant Ramsay was in charge of the Royal Engineer Sappers manning the moorings. Forum won't currently let me add attachments so will add a piece that appeared in The Times, dated Friday October 11th 1907, a bit later.

 

Going back to his next of kin, there were two households recorded at 291 Lower Road, Rotherhithe on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, but there is no-one with the surname Smith.

 

Unfortunately I'm locked out of FindMy Past at the moment so can't check the 1939 National Register. If you can track John Robert and Gladys Lily down there then may give you an alternative date of birth for him, and a date of birth for her. From that you might be able to then track down her family.

 

Similarly with the marriage certificate you would get bride and grooms fathers, (if any known), occupation and whether still alive, and also possibly the ages of the couple and confirmation that Gladys was a spinster.

 

And of course there is always his Army officer file at the soon to be re-opened to visitors Kew - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1081212

 

Hope some of that helps,

Peter

 

 

[George Rayner]

Is this them on 1939 register?

Ramsay household

(2 people)

First name(s)	Last name(s)	DOB	Sex	Occupation	Marital status	Schedule	Schedule Sub Number
John R	Ramsay	16 Nov 1871	Male	Retired Army Officer Equipmennt Officer Rap	Married	109	1
Gladys L	Ramsay	05 Apr 1887	Female	Unpaid Domestic Duties	Married	109	2

Also states

Retired Captain and QM

General list (not reserve)

ARP

Record Transcription: 1939 Register | findmypast.co.uk

Thanks to FMP

 

George

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2020 by George Rayner
Addition

[adrian 1008]

Thank you all for the tremendous help. I have now discovered him listed on the 1911 census living in Blenheim Barracks in Aldershot Hampshire

He is listed as a Company Assistant Major as part of Air Btn R E. The military base in Aldershot is very close to Farnborough where there may have been an airfield

 

I have assumed that as he was awarded the MC that he was a pilot or observer, but as yet, and I have not yet checked the links provided by colleagues

I can find no record of a squadron

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

Thank you all for the tremendous help. I have now discovered him listed on the 1911 census living in Blenheim Barracks in Aldershot Hampshire

He is listed as a Company Assistant Major as part of Air Btn R E. The military base in Aldershot is very close to Farnborough where there may have been an airfield

 

I have assumed that as he was awarded the MC that he was a pilot or observer, but as yet, and I have not yet checked the links provided by colleagues

I can find no record of a squadron

 

 

It’s fantastic that he’s turned out to be one of the earliest pioneers of Army Aviation, albeit not as fixed wing aircrew (he may have had balloon experience), having started with the Air Battalion RE, then RFC, then RAF.  It’s a great set of medals to have!

 

I don’t think he would have earned his MC as aircrew.  He was by then a Quartermaster and Hon Lieutenant (in those days rendered in that order), so it’s more likely that he earned it by providing logistical support in exceptionally challenging circumstances involving danger to life and limb.

 

It must have felt especially tragic for him to lose his ostensibly only son in yet another world war.

Edited 30 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

I have assumed that as he was awarded the MC that he was a pilot or observer, but as yet, and I have not yet checked the links provided by colleagues

I can find no record of a squadron

 

I suspect given his age and experience he was in charge of a ground crew or a supply team at a landing field in the opening months of the war. Might also explain why there is no Squadron. Given the relatively short range of the aircraft and the rapid movement back and forth in that period I could well understand that he might have been within range of the enemy guns without ever getting off the ground. As this was the first aircraft deployment in a modern theatre of war by the British I've no doubt that it was a very steep learning curve and it was testament to Johns' ability that he was first mentioned in despatches and that this would be supplemented by the Military Cross when this was introduced in January 1915 for Commissioned Officers and Warrant Officers. The relevant actions predate his commissioning as a Quartermaster.

 

Unfortunately still don't seem able to attach the cutting from The Times, so will try and find time to transcribe it later.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited 30 November , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[PRC]

From The Times, dated Friday October 11th 1907

 

Page 14 Naval and Military Intelligence section.

 

THE MILITARY AIRSHIP.

 

The hopes which had been entertained that the Nulli Secundus would be able to complete her triumph of Saturday by returning through the air to her shed at Farnborough were abruptly dashed, yesterday, when, owing to a sudden south-westerly gale, the airship had to be dismantled and taken back to Farnborough on a trolley. In the gale the airship received severe damage to the framework between the car and the balloon, the steel rods of which it was composed being bent and broken in many places. Beyond this, however, the balloon suffered but little injury, the engine being undamaged, while the gas vessel was also left intact. The suddenness with which the gale sprang up necessitated the hurried deflation of the balloon, and this was accomplished in a very short space of time.

 

The early morning was fine and calm and the conditions appeared to be favourable for an ascent. About 9 o’clock, however, a sudden south-westerly gale sprang up. To a wind from this quarter the Crystal Palace cycle track affords but little shelter, and soon the airship was tugging hard at the ropes and rolling alarmingly from side to side. As the lurching continued many of the stay rods were bent and broken, and the ship pitched heavily towards the stern. Two or three of the ropes whith which it was secured broke, and the Engineer sappers in charge, under Sgt. Ramsay, had hard work to keep the balloon under control. All the workpeople in the grounds at the time were summoned and policemen, gatemen, and other workers assisted the airship’s guard in holding the straining vessel down. It was then found absolutely imperative, to avoid further damage, that the Nulli Secundus should be deflated. The valves were opened by Sgt. Ramsay, and the 75,000 cubic feet if hydrogen gas was allowed gradually to escape. As the envelope slackened the rolling gradually ceased, and attention was then turned to the framework, which was taken rod from rod until completely unfastened. The engine was removed with great care and laid undamaged upon the grass, and the envelope of the balloon lay coiled up near by. The wings, bands, and netting were also carefully removed, and by 11 o’clock the airship was reduced to a framework.

 

Neither Col. Capper nor Mr. Cody was present at the time, nor had they arrived before the balloon was ready for removal, but the general manager of the Palace (Mr. Starr) was communicated with and he went to the spot and superintended operations. Men from all parts of the Palace grounds were summoned to assist, and from 30 to 40 workmen who were at first called in the number steadily grew until about 100 were assisting the men of the ballooning section. Among the articles damaged was one of the propellers, the blade of which was twisted.

 

Mr. Cody arrived at the grounds shortly before 1 o’clock, and, after making a hurried examination of the engine, declared that it was quite undamaged, the way in which it had been suspended having saved it. He agreed that absolutely the only thing to be done in a sudden emergency was to deflate the gas vessel. Colonel Templar arrived a few minutes later. He said that ‘another good show’ would be provided for London in a few days. A spectator suggested that the Union Jack should be placed over the remains of the airship, but Mr. Cody said the Union Jack was only placed over a corpse, and the airship was by no means dead yet. Captain King said that the results of the experiences of the past few days would be to induce the authorities to adopt a lighter form of machinery for the airship. The deflation and packing up of the airship for removal were witnessed by numerous spectators. The envelope, engine, and the parts of the framework were removed by a motor-trolley, which had been telegraphed for from Aldershot.

 

It is stated that officially little importance is attached to the accident. The Nulli Secundus is looked upon as having served her purpose of experiment. The journey of the atrship back to Farnborough Common would have been its last, as at present designed, for plans had been adopted by which it is hoped to overcome a number of defects which has been revealed. The accident was in no way due to defective construction of the airship.

 

                                                                                   ___________________________________ 

 

A correspondent writes:- In the course of a long conversation with Colonel Templer, the original designer and builder of the Nulli Secundus, I have elicited the information that yesterday’s reports of the damaged she suffered are mostly of an exaggerated nature. There is no doubt that during the night, with the wind freshening every hour, she “dragged her moorings” to a considerable extent, and with each squall she began literally to thrash the ground, rising 3ft or 4ft, and then bumping heavily. This kind of treatment was more than the light framework between the envelope and the car could withstand, and some buckling and bending naturally occurred. When the non-commissioned officer in charge found that with all the willing aid at his disposal he could not firmly secure the airship, he judiciously decided to deflate the envelope as quickly as possible, and so avoid further damage. In a couple of hours the whole structure was takem to pieces, the various sections packed in their proper order, and everything was ready to be loaded on a wagon and taken bacl to Farnborough. The huge skin envelope is absolutely unharmed, as is also the motor and engines. The blades of the propeller were slightly bent, but this can be remedied in a few minutes. The bent rib could be replaced or repaired if desired in a few hours, and Colonel Templer is confident that, if they so wished, Colonel Capper and Mr. Cody could rig the ship afresh and make an ascent to-morrow morning. Thi surely shows that the reports of a complete wreck were an absurd and gross exaggeration. As a matter of fact, I understand that this accident, disagreeable as it may be in many ways, has served a most useful purpose at a bery slight expense, by demonstrating conclusively to the experts that another and simpler way of rigging the vessel can be adopted with great advantage. It is probable that ere long the airship will appear before the public with far less framework and more elasticity than at present.

 

(All highlights in bold are mine).

 

From the Samuel Franklin Cody page on Wikipedia.

 

Nulli Secundus airship.

 

Before Cody could turn his newfound skills to aeroplanes, he was required to help complete an airship then under construction in the Farnborough Airship Shed. In December 1906, he was despatched to France, where he purchased a 40 hp Antoinette engine. During 1907, he was given full authority as the designer of the airship's understructure and propulsion system. On 5 October 1907, Britain's first powered airship British Army Dirigible No 1 Nulli Secundus, flew from Farnborough to London in 3 hours 25 minutes, with Cody and his commanding officer Colonel J E Capper on board. After circling St Paul's Cathedral, they attempted to return to Farnborough, but 18 mph headwinds forced them to land at Crystal Palace. There, the airship was damaged by the high winds

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Franklin_Cody

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_Dirigible_No_1

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited 30 November , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

Very interesting Peter and I note your discovery that he earned his MC before his commissioning date.  It would be real icing on the cake to learn more about his citation if one exists, or the specific circumstances that led to his award.  I don’t think it necessarily had to relate to a single incident.

Edited 30 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

Looking at the RAF Museum again turns up another, earlier, form as RAMSAY, J. Lt & QM A/Capt and his return to Home Establishment 30/4/1916

Image courtesy of RAF Museum https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/19621

:-) M

 

Edit: Having just edited yesterday's card post. above [and on now today viewing that actual card image] - in 1920 prior to discharge he was suffering from Phthisis [Tuberculosis] - one cannot help but wonder if the sickness on his Officer's File pages is similar, possible the cause of his 1916 return to the UK, etc. as was somewhat speculatively hypothesised previously.

Edited 30 November , 2020 by Matlock1418
Edit

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

I can find no record of a squadron

 

26 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Looking at the RAF Museum again turns up another, earlier, form as RAMSAY, J. Lt & QM A/Capt and his return to Home Establishment 30/4/1916

Image courtesy of RAF Museum https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/19621

Posted to 11th Wing 10/2/1916

:-) M

[adrian 1008]

Can anyone make out the word on the top line

[Matlock1418]

7 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

Can anyone make out the word on the top line

Please give us a clue as to which post/record/part of record you are looking at/querying! ;-)

I can, as a couple of suggestions from my latest post of a RAF card, offer from two possible 'top' lines:

"R[oyal] Flying Corps"

And

"Embarked"

:-) M

[adrian 1008]

Apologies it was the Casualty form... I was thinking it was a medical term... An earlier post gave a diagnosis of TB

 

 

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, adrian 1008 said:

Apologies it was the Casualty form... I was thinking it was a medical term... An earlier post gave a diagnosis of TB

Have I answered your query with "Embarked" on the second [but temporally earlier] casualty card ??

:-/ M

[adrian 1008]

yes, thank you......That helps

 

Posted to 11 wing would that be the same as 11 sqn or did squadrons form a wing ?

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

yes, thank you......That helps

 

Posted to 11 wing would that be the same as 11 sqn or did squadrons form a wing ?

I was looking up 11 Wing last night.  It was a unit supporting the Army level rather than the Corps level and responsible for fighters, light bombing and reconnaissance apparently.  A few Squadrons were in a Wing, but they seem to have moved around so the squadrons in the wing in 1918 might be different to what was there in 1916.

Edited 1 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

were they based on Salisbury Plain, Netheravon airfield per chance ?

[FROGSMILE]

54 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

were they based on Salisbury Plain, Netheravon airfield per chance ?

I’m not quite sure what you mean Adrian, the RFCs system of Wings (a word used pre war for half a battalion of infantry) evolved in France and Flanders during the course of the war.  As I understand it Wings moved around as and when necessary to conform with the movements of the Corps and Army’s that they supported (i.e. depending on whether they were a Corps-Wing or an Army-Wing).

Edited 1 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

I understand now thank you. 

when I bought the medals I was told this was one of the first MC s awarded to the RFC and that he was a friend of James McCudden

and they served together in Wiltshire, but there is no supporting evidence so far as I can see