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More Turkish-origin HQ's


trajan
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I have mentioned on another thread that I have recently been offered three HQ's which I had to pass over for various reasons. Here is one of them, I'll try and find photograpgs of th others - I have them somewhere.

 

An interesting one considering its 'issue' date...

 

Julian

 

 

p1907.JPG

p1907 02.JPG

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Thanks Egbert - I am still awaiting a reply on the launch name...

 

Julian 

Edited by trajan
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Here's another one I have recntly been offered and I have - never seen a HQ this badly treated before! An otherwise nice Naval issue... 

 

 

PHOTO-2020-11-16-00-27-46 (1).jpg

PHOTO-2020-11-16-00-27-47 (1).jpg

photo.jpg

Edited by trajan
elaborate opening statement
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And the last of the three I was recntly offered - I wasn't able to get a photograph of the other ricasso and I haven't tried working out the unit markings on the pommel The seller wanted $500 for this...!!! A really nice looking one with dated (?)original scabbard but I think that is way over priced. The thing is that, as many followers of GWF will be aware, there are substantial numbers of HQ's around that were never de-hooked.

 

I have seen examples of these badly struck dates before in which the '09' looks like something else.

 

Julian

 

 

PHOTO-2020-09-29-22-30-56.jpg

PHOTO-2020-09-29-22-30-56 A.jpg

PHOTO-2020-09-29-22-30-56 B.jpg

Edited by trajan
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Trajan,

 

Interesting that that you have the N(aval) both avec and sans serif on these two bayonets. We had that discussion on here about 3 years ago, with no clear resolution as to timing, i.e. was one superseded by the other.

I don't know about tons of non-dehooked still around; 5th Batt still picks them up regularly in NZ, and you have these in Turkey, but on eBay in the US much, much less common.

 

Regards,

JMB

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Yeah... $500 sounds great...

 

One of the more reasonable dealers here in the US has a 2/11 example with later scabbard and Australia stamped grips at $975.  

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WOW! I can normally get them for around $250-300... 

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I am lost here. You guys say a HQ? What does that mean?

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1 hour ago, Steve1871 said:

I am lost here. You guys say a HQ? What does that mean?

 

A "Hooked Quillon" - basically this curved piece shown sticking out below. It was only originally made on early production examples and then actively removed from those still in service so unaltered ones are consequently rarer:

 

RARE 1907 HOOKED QUILLON BRITISH AUSTRALIAN WW1 WW2 SWORD BAYONET &  SCABBARD – JB Military Antiques

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Yes, thank you Andrew, I have one “Hookie” myself. It is just when some of you senior guys, that know so much, huge personal library’s start coming up with tons of info, it amazes me, I was not sure , just did not think of the obvious 🥺thanks again

 

Steve

 

 

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3 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

...It was only originally made on early production examples and then actively removed from those still in service so unaltered ones are consequently rarer:

 

Well, yes and no! I'll let somebody else do the maths as to how many P.1907 HQ's were made 1908-late 1913, when they stopped making them with hook, compared to the total number of P.1907 bayonets made up to November 1918. A quite uncertain number of those with a hook had it removed after 1913, although there is no official order that this should be done (information from John M.Ballard and Julian Bennett, “An Investigation of the Weights of Pattern 1907 Bayonets made in the UK around the First World War Period’, Arms & Armour, 14/2, 206–222: 208). But HQ's with intact hooks were still in service in some places well after 1913, e.g., those with post-1916 clearance holes in the pommel, and HQ's with the hook still on are known to have seen service in Australian navy service in WW2.

 

I think the 'rarity' issue is overstretched, quite honestly, a selling point rather than anything else. I have not kept absolute figures but in Turkey alone I have seen well over 20 for sale the past 10 or so years, and I have about eight myself, and have never paid more than $300. That may be, of course, that there are unknown numbers of these hiding away from the Gallipoli and the Meopotamia campaigns. Even so, the premium attached to these is way over the top. I know I paid more than I should have done for my first HQ, a really grotty example, which I no longer have, simply because I wanted a HQ. This 'rarity' issue for HQ's is a bit similar, of course, with German sawback bayonets: as a proportion, according to unit-marked examples only, there are many more of these around than the 6% of total number of epcific types ever made...

 

Julian

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Julian,

A well known U.K. militaria dealer currently has four HQ's on offer.

Priced from £745 to £1875.

Mike.

 

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49 minutes ago, MikeyH said:

Julian,

A well known U.K. militaria dealer currently has four HQ's on offer.

Priced from £745 to £1875.

Mike.

 

 

!!!!!! To say my flabber is gasted is an understatement! What is driving these prices up? A few years back - and I mean less than five - they could be got in the UK for much less if I recall correctly...

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In my very humble they are scarce + desirable, rather than rare. They are clearly not rare in a 'difficult to find one for sale' sense. If money were no object, it wouldn't take long to assemble a reasonable selection. I would love one for my collection of British & Commonwealth bayonets, but my level of desire doesn't stretch much further than paying £150 or so and I would expect more than a semi-relic example for that as well. Part of this personal valuation is because they simply aren't that rare.

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3 hours ago, trajan said:

 

!!!!!! To say my flabber is gasted is an understatement! What is driving these prices up? A few years back - and I mean less than five - they could be got in the UK for much less if I recall correctly...

 Julian,

The vendor mentioned is at the top end pricewise on all his stock.  Auction prices for HQ's probably average a more sensible

£250 to £350.  My own example with slight pitting to the blade was £150 at auction, around two years ago.  I was the only bidder,

due to poor cataloguing and photo.  (April 09 Sanderson).

Mike.

Edited by MikeyH
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52 minutes ago, peregrinvs said:

In my very humble they are scarce + desirable, rather than rare. They are clearly not rare in a 'difficult to find one for sale' sense. If money were no object, it wouldn't take long to assemble a reasonable selection. I would love one for my collection of British & Commonwealth bayonets, but my level of desire doesn't stretch much further than paying £150 or so and I would expect more than a semi-relic example for that as well. Part of this personal valuation is because they simply aren't that rare.

 

25 minutes ago, MikeyH said:

 Julian,

The vendor mentioned is at the top end pricewise on all his stock.  Auction prices for HQ's probably average a more sensible

£250 to £350.  My own example with slight pitting to the blade was £150 at auction, around two years ago.  I was the only bidder,

due to poor cataloguing and photo.  (April 09 Sanderson).

Mike.

 

Peregrinus, that sums it up - they are desirable rather than rare, I suspect probably because they have a more immediate WW1 connection than a de-hooked one, although the latter is perhaps more likley to have seen actual service and so escpaed the imaginary 'great dehooking' episde! Rather like de-sawbacked German sawbacks: they were there that's why the lost the sawback...

 

MikeyH , that sounds a good bargain there!

 

Julia 

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Trajan,

 

I pulled out "World Bayonets" with 1987/8 Price Guide by Anthony Carter.

He priced a standard, British made HQ in VG-EXC condition at equivalent to US $120-135 (Pound sterling 45-50).

 

Allow for 30 years of inflation, and........

 

Regards,

JMB

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Interesting... One web-site says $120 in 1987 is worth $275.06 today. That's buying power. But there again buying power etc., are different I guess! I was never a statistician - failed my 'O' level GCE...

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I drift around the web daily, looking around. When no £££ to spare, still like to look. It helps me learn, sort of.   
maunly several U.S., a Canadian, and 3 British sites are my usual. 
I agree with  MikeyH. With €745 to £1875

 

It is simply Desirablity and supply/demand

Being rare with few made is not enough. There can be from China, central or Eastern Europe, but if not popular, there is low demand, and low cost/ value

The interest, demand for an item is the driving factor for high prices

 

Examples being the P.07 Hooked

P1888 1st pattern (3 rivet)

Elcho, private purchase

71/84mS. Sawback

 

bottom end

Turkish cut downs ( I have 4)

most check bayonets

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11 minutes ago, Steve1871 said:

 

It is simply Desirablity and supply/demand

Being rare with few made is not enough. There can be from China, central or Eastern Europe, but if not popular, there is low demand, and low cost/ value

The interest, demand for an item is the driving factor for high prices

 

Examples being the P.07 Hooked

P1888 1st pattern (3 rivet)

Elcho, private purchase

71/84mS. Sawback

 

 

Speaking of Elchos, remember well, ALL Alex Coppel marked ones are repros!  Just ran across one yesterday on an auction site, $550, no takers.  Hopefully all knew what they are looking at...

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Thanks N White, great to know the fakes!

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On 01/12/2020 at 15:01, trajan said:

Peregrinus, that sums it up - they are desirable rather than rare, I suspect probably because they have a more immediate WW1 connection than a de-hooked one, although the latter is perhaps more likley to have seen actual service and so escpaed the imaginary 'great dehooking' episde!

Indeed. I have a May 1913 Enfield made P1907 that has been de-hooked and had the clearance hole added. Condition-wise it has clearly seen some use and could no doubt tell a tale or several if it could talk, but this doesn't significantly add to it's collectability / desirability.

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Come to think of, de-hooked HQ's might be rarer than HQ's... Just as de-sawbacked German jobs are rarer than sawback ones...

 

Julian

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