1/8 Royal Warwickshire Regiment

[Rupieroo]

Hello, and I hope everyone remains safe and healthy. 

 

This is my first post here, but any search engine will indicate that what follows is not the first time I have posted in relation to this subject.  I have also made appeals via BBC Radio 2 (2011), Carl Chinn's BBC Radio show (2005), and numerous attempts through the Tamworth Herald.

 

Private 57334 Clive Williams

1/8 Royal Warwickshire Regiment

Injured 9 October 1918

Died 20 November 1918, aged 24, at Number 12 General Hospital, Rouen.

Buried at St Sever Cemetery Extension.

 

I've seen his medal card. I've seen that he left just short of £10 to his mother.

I've seen where he is commemorated in Tamworth, Pooley Hall and Wilnecote.

 

I've read much about RWR and Edward Vaughan Campion's excellent diary.  But what I fail to see is Clive.

 

I know he had worked at Kingsbury Colliery and Pooley Hall, but I don't know how long for or when?  Where did he enlist and on what day?  What company of 1/8 was he part of? What was his war?  How was he injured - I read a terrible account of 'friendly fire' on the 9/10/18.  What were his injuries?  What day was he buried?  Who now has his medals and penny?

 

On the 100th commemoration of Clive's death I visited his grave and I pay the Royal British Legion to lay a wreath at his grave every year.

 

Forgive me, I am not being lazy or seeking use of your subscribed services.  I am also aware that many records were destroyed during the Blitz.  However, I firmly believe there is a photo and a story concerning Clive.

 

Thank you

 

 

[Cheshire22]

So many questions, so many answer s,  

 

[Rupieroo]

Hi Cheshire22, my apologies. I've rather got myself lost and every search I do throws up the answers I already know.  Yet there is much that I don't know!

[Cheshire22]

What are the question s excatully 

 

I can see, you wish to have a story about him, only you can find that story and tell it. As for a photo it's best to try the archives of the local papers at that time. 

 

 

[Rupieroo]

Cheshire22, I'm not feeling the warmest of welcomes so far!

 

I tell the story, as best as I know it with what information I have.

 

I tried the newspapers and don't expect you or anyone on here to provide a photo, I'm merely stating it is one of the things I hope to find.

 

Answers could be to inform about work dates at Kingsbury or Pooley Hall; where 1/8th enlisted; when Clive signed up; what company was be in; what battles; was there an incident of 'friendly fire' on 9/10/18; what were his injuries... 

 

[Michelle Young]

I'm assuming that you have the War diaries for the 1/8? If so, these give you the day to day story, and will inform you of their whereabouts, and what actions they took part in. Unfortunately, as an other rank,it is highly unlikely  Clive will be mentioned by name at all. As to the other questions, unless his service records survive, I'm afraid you probably will never know. You can find out where he enlisted from Soldiers Died In The Great War, available on Ancestry I believe. Newspapers might also have an in Memoriam placed by his family, which might tell you something. 

You can also put an alert on Ancestry by his medal index card asking for the whereabouts of his medals  and also on EBay and The British Medal Forum. 

Michelle 

[Rupieroo]

Hi Michelle,

 

Thank you!  I have about 3 different versions of diaries - and it is from coordinating this information that I read of the 'friendly fire' incident.

 

I have had contact with the local newspaper.

 

Cheers

[clk]

Hi Rupieroo,

 

Clive appears on this casualty list - link. So he would have been actually wounded several weeks prior to 22.11.1918. If you look for service papers for other men from his Regiment on same list, with a bit of luck, you might be able to find some reasonable commonality of wounding dates - 9.10.1918, as per your original post?.

 

Findmypast has a medical record (link) which might be relevant, albeit the initials aren't quite right. It reads as:

 

First name(s):    E C
Last name:   Williams
Rank: Private
Service number: 57334
Unit: 1/8 Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment
Embarked 31 Ambulance Train in Doingt on 10.10.1918 suffering from 'GSW Lower Jaw'. Disembarked Rouen 11.10.1918

 

The amount of War Gratuity shown as paid in his Soldiers' Effects record is indicative of 12 or less months of service.

 

Regards

Chris
 

 

Edited 24 November , 2020 by clk

[Ivor Anderson]

The CWGC gives the names of those from 1/8th battalion who died on 9th October 1918:

(Some of them may have surviving service records that could fill in Clive's background).

Henry Robert Nesbitt (57327) must have joined up at the same time as Clive!

 

Edited 24 November , 2020 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[clk]

Hi,

 

27 minutes ago, clk said:

The amount of War Gratuity shown as paid in his Soldiers' Effects record is indicative of 12 or less months of service

 

Surviving papers for some other Royal Warwickshire Regiment men show:

 

57303 Perry - service counted from 6.6.1918

57306 Byron - service counted from 6.6.1918

57334

57365 Tighe - service counted from 7.6.1918

57378 Lawlor - service counted from 10.6.1918

 

Regards

Chris

 

[Ivor Anderson]

Looks like a late batch of conscripts Chris? The attached 1/8th Bn. WD page covering the 9th October 1918 is attached for reference.

It records 24 ORs killed and 168 wounded during this short period. WD ref. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353392

Others from the battalion who died during October 1918 are listed on the CWGC site.

Edited 24 November , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Rupieroo]

Dear CLK & Ivor Anderson,

 

Thank you both, that is remarkable information that I have not seen previously in my scouting about.

 

As I understand matters it looks like Clive, along with others, were late recruits based on both his number, 57334, and his War Gratuity - certainly less than 12 months and probably missed the Italian endeavours, possibly reaching France only in the September of 1918.

 

On the 9th October, he participated in a battle that might have resulted in 'friendly fire' injuring several soldiers.

 

Yet nothing happens until 10/10 when he is admitted to an ambulance train.  Presumably, this delay is due to the carnage and chaos of the battle, or he might have been preliminary tended to at the scene.

 

"Discharged Rouen 10/10/18", I take it that means to not from, as he died in Rouen.

 

Is Rouen the nearest hospital?  But by that date, The Americans had been controlling Number 12 Hospital for over a year - we're allies treated in each other's hospitals?

 

Also, "GSW Lower Jaw" - according to the long long trail this classification is,

 

"II. Gunshot wounds of the face
1. Simple flesh contusions and wounds
2. With fracture
3. Fracture with lesion
4. With fracture of the lower jaw "

 

I'm no medic and I'm ignorant as that doesn't sound the type of injury to lay one up in hospital for over a month, nor does it sound terminal?

 

Within x months of leaving Pooley Hall Colliery, Clive is in battle, injured and dies 9 days after Armistice.

 

Gosh.

[Alisonmallen62]

A gunshot wound to the jaw would have been painful to say the least!  It may be infection set in.  I broke my jaw both sides and it took several months to recover with a lot of pain and laid me up in bed for nearly two months.  If your man was from Kingsbury/Pooley try the old schools there may be a photo.  Also the Birmingham library may have something.  The national coal board may have old records too. 

[Don Regiano]

 

14 minutes ago, Rupieroo said:

"Discharged Rouen 10/10/18", I take it that means to not from, as he died in Rouen.

 

4 hours ago, clk said:

Embarked 31 Ambulance Train in Doingt on 10.10.1918 suffering from 'GSW Lower Jaw'. Disembarked Rouen 11.10.1918

 

[Rupieroo]

Hi Allisonmallen62,

 

Sorry to hear about your jaw. 

 

Yes, I accept it would be painful, I just wouldn't have considered deathly.  But, as you say, infection might have set in.

 

[Rupieroo]

15 minutes ago, Don Regiano said:

Yes, 11/10. Simple typo. He still died in Rouen 20/11, so discharged to not from

 

 

 

[Alisonmallen62]

Possibly reconstructive surgery depending on wound.  I used to visit a lot of schools in that area which are Victorian - it was amazing how many had memorials and photos of their former pupils who went to war.  

[clk]

Hi,

 

 

I amended my post (changing 'admitted' to 'embarked', and 'discharged' to 'disembarked') to try to reflect that the record shows that he was probably put on an ambulance train for further onward evacuation to a larger (and relatively safer) medical facility - not that he was discharged from all medical care. If considered stable enough, many men were later further evacuated to the UK for more treatment and convalescence.

 

45 minutes ago, Rupieroo said:

Yet nothing happens until 10/10 when he is admitted to an ambulance train.  Presumably, this delay is due to the carnage and chaos of the battle, or he might have been preliminary tended to at the scene.

 

In the intervening time he would have probably have been passed back from the front line through the evacuation chain (link). The record I saw is part of the MH 106 series, which itself is only a 'representative sample' of admission/discharge registers which were later retained.  

 

'GSW 'can relate to a bullet wound, or a shrapnel wound. The record doesn't say, but the poor lad might have lost the best part of his jaw.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 24 November , 2020 by clk

[Don Regiano]

10 minutes ago, Rupieroo said:

 

That wasn't a quote from me.  I was merely pointing out that clk has pre-empted your question and had given you the answer in his post of 4 hours ago.  I was going to say that it would have taken him at least one day (if he was lucky) to get to Rouen but, again, clk has given you a more informative answer.  It was not unknown for it to take considerably longer to get to Rouen, depending on the nature of the wounds and/or the availability of evacuation transport and/or weather/ground conditions at the time.

[Rupieroo]

clk/Chris,

 

Please believe me when I say that I am deeply impressed and grateful for your contribution, help and guidance.  You, Ivor, Alison, to name a few, have already given me new hope, new information and new directions.

 

This is brilliant and I commend the kindness of strangers!

[clk]

Hi Rupieroo,

 

If members such as @TEW pick up, they/he might be able to fill in some details about his possible initial evacuation. From what I can see, it seems likely that after the initial part of his evacuation he was transferred to 31 AT from either 55 Casualty Clearing Station, or 20 CCS.

 

 

Images sourced from the National Archives

 

May I ask how you know that Clive died in the care of 12 General Hospital, Rouen?

 

Regards

Chris

[Alisonmallen62]

What is your interest or connection to Clive I was wondering if you were a relative.  I looked at the census information and he had siblings so maybe one of them had his medals and penny?

[Rupieroo]

1 hour ago, clk said:

Hi Rupieroo,

 

If members such as @TEW pick up, they/he might be able to fill in some details about his possible initial evacuation. From what I can see, it seems likely that after the initial part of his evacuation he was transferred to 31 AT from either 55 Casualty Clearing Station, or 20 CCS.

 

 

Images sourced from the National Archives

 

May I ask how you know that Clive died in the care of 12 General Hospital, Rouen?

 

Regards

Chris

[Rupieroo]

Hi Chris,

 

Sorry, please call me Clive.

 

If I remember correctly the Nuneaton and North Warwickshire Family History people was the first time I saw such a reference!

[Rupieroo]

Alison,

 

To the best of my knowledge and research, despite sharing a name, Clive is no relation to me or my family.  I have no idea who he is! 

 

Equally true, none of my relatives was killed in either Wars.

 

I attended the Tomb of The Unknown Soldier and Westminster's Cenotaph every year.  However, in 2005, I realised I had no one to commemorate.

 

I set about the task of finding a soldier with my name... and I've researched him ever since!  I attended his grave on the 100th anniversary of his death, and pay the Royal British Legion to lay a poppy wreath at his grave, every year.

1 hour ago, Alisonmallen62 said: