1/8 Royal Warwickshire Regiment

[Alisonmallen62]

Thank you for explaining and actually I just read a fair bit online about the story and how much info you have. Seems to me whoever has the medals and photo wishes to remain private.  Maybe that should be respected.  Whilst I understand your curiosity and interest perhaps as a stranger it feels imposing on private family memory and grief.  The wreath is well meant I am sure but I read criticism that not even a poppy had been laid I assume by this unknown person.  How is that known?  I dnt lay a poppy ever at a certain war grave because my remembrance is in my heart.  I was once pursued for photos by a stranger online relentlessly requesting and it was too much of an invasion into cherished family memory to be shared.  I dnt mean to criticise you, your interest or method of remembrance but perhaps this ‘unknown’ is making it clear you are a stranger they don’t wish to share with.  Surely if you were told someone has a photo/medals but not given their name there is a reason for that.  No offence meant just trying to see both sides of this. 

[PRC]

Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as born Oldbury, Worcestershire, resident Wilnecote, Warwickshire and enlisted Tamworth, Warwickshire.

 

The additional information on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website is that he was the Son of Amplias Williams, of Holly Cottage, Polesworth, Tamworth, Staffs, and the late Arthur Williams.

 

The birth of a Clive Williams was registered with the Civil Authorities in the West Bromwich District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1894.

The West Bromwich Civil Registration District included the Civil Parish of Oldbury.

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/west bromwich.html

 

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 6 year old Clive Williams, born Oldbury, Worcestershire, who was recorded living at Myrtle Cottage, Waterfall Lane, Rowley Regis, Staffordshire. This was the household of his parents Levi Arthur, (aged 47, Builder, Carpenter & Contractor, born Halesowen, Worcestershire) and Amplias, (aged 45, born Smethwick, Staffordshire). The couple have two other children living with them, daughter Henri Amplias Swain Williams, (18, Board School Teacher), and son Arthur Swain Williams, (9) – both born Rowley Regis, Staffordshire. The address fell within the Dudley Civil Registration District.

 

The death of the 55 year old Levi Arthur Williams was recorded in the Dudley District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1909. There is no obvious civil probate for him.

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales, the 16 year old Clive Williams, a Colliery Labourer for the Kingsbury Colliery Company, born Langley, Worcestershire, was recorded living at 4 Watling Street, Wilnecote, Warwickshire. This was the household of his widowed mother Amplias Williams, (aged 55, born Londonderry, Staffordshire). Amplias states she was married 29 years and had had three children, all then still alive. One other child was living with her, an unmarried daughter Henriette Williams, aged 28, an Elementary School Teacher in the employ of Warwickshire County Council, born Blackheath, Staffordshire. Although there are discrepancies between the two censuses, part of this may be down to the fact that someone else has completed and signed the household return on behalf of Amplias – possibly a William Fenn, who is not actually recorded living at that address.

 

With school leaving age being 14, Clive could have been working at the mine for over two years.

 

Unless he volunteered in the first year of the war then as a Coal Miner it would have been increasingly unlikely that the Armed Forces would have taken him. He would have been deemed more essential to the war effort that he carry on in his civilian employ. Coal Miners in particular came to believe they had been promised that they would never be conscripted.

 

But all of this changed with the catastrophic losses suffered by the British Army in the spring of 1918. It is perhaps no surprise that Clive was conscripted in June 1918. This is a subject that has been discussed before  - see threads like

 

It looks like Amplias passes away in the Lichfield District in 1941.

 

Apologies if none of this is new information,

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

[Rupieroo]

Alison: Thank you.  I appreciate your consideration and sensitive addition.  Of course, I act with respect and have no interest in owning medals or trinkets; I seek only to honour.  But look, I hear everything you say and don't disagree.

[Rupieroo]

Peter: thank you! What a story-teller!  Yes, some information was known, some I 'felt' in the mist, but you've crafted together a compelling read.

 

There are new avenues to explore, for instance, Alison mentioning about contacting the NCB regarding Pooley Hall and Kingsbury; the information regarding Clive's injuries and transportation to Rouen; the understanding of his 57334 number and that his service was much shorter than I ever thought, by 2 years!

 

Understanding the context of his life before war and his (short) experience in war, brings him alive.  I might never know what he looked like, but an image develops.

 

In understanding the events around him, I better understand him.

 

And Amplias dying in 1941 ties in with the 'In Memory' notices published in the Tamworth Herald ending.

 

I believe the brother, Arthur, settled in Torquay and died in 1953.

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Rupieroo said:

Yes, some information was known, some I 'felt' in the mist, but you've crafted together a compelling read.

 

Would still need some legwork to confirm this isn't just a series of co-incidences - I'd have felt more sure if the source I had access to included the mothers maiden name with the birth details, for example - but to me it does hang together well.

 

Just to flesh it out a bit more - with more possible co-incidences! :-

 

The marriage of a Levi Arthur Williams to an Amplias Swain was recorded in the West Bromwich District in the July to September quarter,(Q3), of 1881. The marriage took place at Christ Church, Oldbury on the 5th July 1881. The 27 year old Levi Arthur, a Carpenter, of Powke Lane, Rowley Regis, was already a widower. His bride, Amplias Swain was a 25 year old Spinster living at Tat Bank. Levis' father, also a Levi, was a Builder. Amplias' father, Henry Swain, was a Brewer.

https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58187f6ee93790eb7ff13bf9/amplias-swain-levi-arthur-williams-marriage-worcestershire-oldbury-1881-07-05?locale=en

 

The family certainly seemed to be on the up - by the 1891 Census of England & Wales they were already recorded living at Waterfall Lane, Rowley Regis. Father Levi Arthur, (37), was describing himself as a Master Builder, and there was a live in Domestic Servant. The birthplace for Amplias, (35) was still shown as Smethwick, Staffordshire, and that of daughter Henrietta A.S. (8), was shown as Rowley Regis.

 

England Birth & Christenings 1538-1875 records the baptism of a "Heneritta Amplias Swaine Williams", daughter of Levi Arthur and "Amphlias", as taking place at Blackheath, Staffordshire on the 18th May 1882. (NB - Blackheath was the place of birth given for Henriette Williams on the 1911 Census).

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWDF-BX5

 

The same source has the baptism of an Arthur Swain Williams taking place at Blackheath on the 3rd Order 1891. Parents are Levi Arthur and "Amphes".

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1KG-T5F

 

But I couldn't find a baptism online in sources like familysearch and freereg for Clive Williams. Clives' birth certificate would be very likely to give home address - either as place of birth or address of informant. That in turn might narrow down places where he might have been baptised - it could simply be a case that the baptisms for that parish aren't online or are behind a paywall.

 

The one remaining family member who hasn't been accounted for on the 1911 Census of England & Wales is Clives' brother Arthur. The 20 year old Arthur Swain Williams, an unmarried assistant in business from Rowley Regis, Staffordshire,  and a "servant" of the householder, was recorded living at the Manchester Inn, High Street, Blackheath. The householder was a 35 year old widower Tom Darby, a Publican & Butcher. Also living with Tom was his 7 young children.

 

4 hours ago, Rupieroo said:

There are new avenues to explore, for instance, Alison mentioning about contacting the NCB regarding Pooley Hall and Kingsbury;

 

Worth checking out the likes of Ancestry and FindMyPast. I don't have a subscription to Ancestry currently, but from memory they have copies of branch records from a number of Trade Unions. They are usually subscription books, showing a man has paid and usually recording things like age, type of employment and where and sometimes home address and number of dependants. It's possible via these to track an individual over a number of years.

 

It's tempting to think that Clive leaving school and going to work at the Colliery was driven by the death of his father. A good wage but in some ways a step back socially for the family.

 

More co-incidences alert

 

9 hours ago, PRC said:

Although there are discrepancies between the two censuses, part of this may be down to the fact that someone else has completed and signed the household return on behalf of Amplias – possibly a William Fenn, who is not actually recorded living at that address.

 

The marriage of a Henrietta A S Williams to a William Fenn was recorded in the Tamworth District of Staffordshire in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1911.

 

There are 20 Medal Index Cards for an Arthur S. Williams showing on the National Archive catalogue - which assumes Arthur served, that he enlisted using his middle name, served in the Army and that he either served overseas or if home service only, qualified for the Silver War Badge on discharge. Stand-outs among the 20 are:-

Private 57980 Royal Warwickshire Regiment - not so very far away from Clives' number.

Private 31363 South Staffordshire Regiment also Private G/63198 Middlesex Regiment. The related Medal Index Card would need to be checked to work out in which order.

Private 22501 Royal Warwickshire Regiment also Private 38046 Royal Berkshire Regiment. Ditto.

All three only qualified for the Victory Medal & British War Medal, so didn't serve overseas until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

But there are also three Army Service Corps men, 2 Royal Engineers and a Royal Field Artillery man.

 

If Arthur married during the war years, or the marriage produced children during the time he might have been serving, then the related certificates would show at a minimum his rank and regiment \ corps.

 

Right up until at least 1938 the Tamworth Herald appears to have carried two in memoriam notices for Clive Williams, appearing in late November. Here is the one from 1938.

(Sourced courtesy of FindMyPast)

 

The 1939 National Register has:-

 

Amplis Williams, Widow, sole occupant of 42 Green Lane, Dorden, Warwickshire, born 14th March 1856.

Henrietta A.S Fenn, married, second person in household at 56 Newland House Bennetts Road, Keresley Newlands, Bedworth U.D., Warwickshire, born 20th April 1882. She is carrying out unpaid domestic duties. Husband William is a Mining Engineer.

No obvious match for Arthur.

 

No obvious probate for Amplis.

1954 Probate calendar entry for Arthur Swain Williams.

 

(Image courtesy of the Government Probate Service)

 

The death of a Henrietta "Amphlias" S. Fenn, born 20th April 1882, was recorded in the Sutton Coldfield District of Warwickshire in Q1 1974. 1974 Probate Calendar entry can be seen here https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Fenn&yearOfDeath=1974&page=3#calendar

 

Hope there are not too many red herrings in all of that.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Rupieroo]

Hi Pete,

 

Have you ever thought of nudging aside Mr Stephen Fry and you take over his story-telling role 😄

 

Again, there is information there I knew, but some new snippets too.

 

I think I should go right back to basics and see if I can track down Clive's schools.  I can't be sure it is Clive but I remember reading a few Tamworth Herald articles from 1910-1914 regarding Wilnecote Cricket Club and Kingsbury Colliery Football Club, that mention both a "Clive" and a "Williams" but not a "Clive Williams".  I was liaising with a journalist at the Tamworth Herald who promised to connect me with the newspapers researcher/archivist, but nothing ever came of it and I felt a nuisance after four chases!

 

My apologies regarding Arthur's death, I said Torquay but meant Paignton.  This is an avenue worth exploring, but I would think Arthur dying in 1953, there could be, what, a child, a grandchild, a great-grandchild, and possibly even a great-great-great-grandchild by now, which seems too tenuous a link to their 3xgreat uncle or whatever it is!

 

As for Clive's sister marrying a Fenn, this is probably very correct!  Way back in 2012 I had been working on an incorrect assumption that she married a McColl.  Here's an exchange:

 

"UPDATE 2012:

 

I received the following email from Claire MacTavish, as mentioned in an article regarding the death of Dr McColl's and Amplias's daughter.

 

 

 
"Dear Clive

Thank you for your message. I am the person you are after, one of the grandchildren of Daniel McColl.

However, I’m afraid I can’t help because there seems to be an error in one of the records you have found. In 1911 Daniel McColl married Elsie Chilwell and she was our grandmother, not Henrietta Williams.

I’m very sorry not to be able to help but wish you good luck in your research.

Best wishes
Claire MacTavish"

 

(The above information is from the Tamworth Herald, shared via the Birmingham History forum. Also, the exchange of correspondence with me)

 

Coming back to Clive's death and the possibility of infection, are we talking Sepsis?  As we know Fleming is yet to discover Penicillin, I know Rouen hospitals also treated many soldiers with STDs - had one of these affected Clive could that contribute to his death?  What about the Spanish Flu?  And by 1918 Number 12 General Hospital was staffed and run by the Americans - so was it an American forces hospital with expertise in Clive's type of injury or an allied hospital run by American medics?

 

Some more ignorant questions (Pete, these are for everyone so please don't feel the pressure):

 

1. Would Clive have selected to or been told to sign-up with 1/8 Royal Warwickshire?

2. 1/8 RWR based at Aston, why?

3. Clive has, according to cogent evidence, no link with Aston, although it is not far from Tamworth, but surely Tamworth was bigger than Aston?

4. I hear of 'Pals' battalions, was 1/8th Pals?

5. In calling up reserved occupations was this seen as a natural progression in the closing days of the war, or would it have appeared like a desperate last hope?

6. Those who died in hospital and are known not just unto G_d, were they buried in their uniforms, or naked in a shroud?   Were there coffins?

7. Who would attend the burial?  And did each known soldier have an individual service, or would there have been one mass for x soldiers?

 

I could sit for hours and ask questions!

 

Thank you

 

Clive

[PRC]

6 minutes ago, Rupieroo said:

1. Would Clive have selected to or been told to sign-up with 1/8 Royal Warwickshire?

2. 1/8 RWR based at Aston, why?

3. Clive has, according to cogent evidence, no link with Aston, although it is not far from Tamworth, but surely Tamworth was bigger than Aston?

4. I hear of 'Pals' battalions, was 1/8th Pals?

 

Clive was liable for conscription under the Military Service Act of 1916 fron the relevant date for his age group and marital status - a man born 1894 and single would have been liable from the 20th January 1916. However because of his job the call up was deferred. As long as he continued to turn up for work and perform to a reasonable standard then it would have continued. Of course as men were released from the army as a result of wounds or ill-health they tried to place them in jobs that would release up an able-bodied man. As the war went on the list of jobs that were regarded as essential to the war effort was also whittled down. But at the start of 1918 there were still jobs where it may well have seemed that being called up would never happen.

 

With conscription the individual had no say about what unit he was sent to to train with or eventually serve with. Most would be dumped into the infantry. Clive certainly didn't train with the 1/8th as they were already overseas.

 

@clk helpfully posted some details of near service numbers for which there are surviving service records.

 

Taking an example from those, 57303 Arthur Perry was a 22 year old Tinsmith when he was medically examined in February 1916. As a Sheet Metal worker his call up was deferred until the 6th June 1918. He was posted to the 4th Reserve Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, but eventually was found physically unfit for service. (I would look up more but the FindMyPast website has just decided to crash!)

 

The Long, Long Trail shows

 

4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion
August 1914 : in Warwick. A training unit, it remained in UK throughout the war. Moved to Portsmouth in August 1914, then to Parkhurst on the Isle of Wight. On arrival at the Isle of Wight moved to camp at Golden Hill, Freshwater. It later relocated to Sandown.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-warwickshire-regiment/

 

So in the intial stages of his army life, the 1/8th, Tamworth and Aston aren't a consideration - everything has moved on to a more industrial level.

 

46 minutes ago, Rupieroo said:

In calling up reserved occupations was this seen as a natural progression in the closing days of the war, or would it have appeared like a desperate last hope?

 

By the spring of 1918 the bottom of the barrel was already being scraped - the age limit went up, the medical standard went down - all in an attempt to keep the British Army in the field long enough for the arrival of the American Army in significant numbers to swing the balance totally in the Allies favour. Conversely this why the Germans knew they had to throw everything at the British Empire and the French & Belgians on the Western Front, using the many divisions freed up by the peace with Russia. Of course if you are down the bottom of the barrel and lose over 200,000 killed, wounded and captured, then the British had to look again at the hard-core of jobs that had been deferred from conscription, (reserved occupation was a WW2 term).

 

Can't speak for the details about the funeral arrangements, but otherwise hope that helps,

 

Peter

[Rupieroo]

On 24/11/2020 at 21:03, clk said:

Hi Rupieroo,

 

If members such as @TEW pick up, they/he might be able to fill in some details about his possible initial evacuation. From what I can see, it seems likely that after the initial part of his evacuation he was transferred to 31 AT from either 55 Casualty Clearing Station, or 20 CCS.

 

 

Images sourced from the National Archives

 

May I ask how you know that Clive died in the care of 12 General Hospital, Rouen?

 

Regards

Chris

Hi Chris,

 

I hope you are well.  Do you know something more about 12 General Hospital that made you question Clive's death there as per CWGC?

[Rupieroo]

Hi kind faces,

 

Thank you for all the information, leads, pointers, advice and support to date.  I am slowly (between work) processing the information, getting it in to some order, checking it with info I already have and trying to research the newer information that you have kindly provided to 'flesh' out the story.

 

I remain intrigued about the burial mass for the dead - given the numbers, did the priest (or whatever religious denomination) bless all the dead in one go, or bless each grave?  That would take some considerable time.

 

Do we know what infections soldiers could pick up in the hospitals in these days prior to Penicillin?  Or was Spanish Flu responsible for deaths also?

 

Cheers

 

Clive

[Rupieroo]

I contacted the NCB, well, actually, the organisation that one must contact is called IRON MOUNTAIN, in Staffordshire, with its HQ in Boston, Mass., USA!

 

Their reply:

 

"Thank you for your completed form requesting records for Mr Clive Williams.

 

We have conducted searches on the information you have provided and unfortunately, unusually, have not located any records.

 

We can search on his National Insurance Number which may locate some records.  If any records are located in order to release  these we would require a photocopy of a death certificate of grant of probate.

 

If you can find a National Insurance Number we could search if there are any records if there are no records then there would be no need to find a death certificate."

 

My understanding is that NINOs were first introduced sometime after the Welfare Act of 1912 and greatly reformed by Attlee's government.  Possibly the distribution of NINOs in 1912, with war just two years away, wasn't a priority or completed.

 

Without finding his employment records I am unlikely to find his NINO.  Without finding his NINO I am unlikely to find his employment records!

 

I am also intrigued by your thoughts on these questions:

 

How were the identifiable dead buried? 

Were the dead stripped and placed in a shroud? 

Was there some remnant of their uniform or something confirming their identity included? 

Were they buried in coffins or simply lowered into their grave?

Were there representatives of each religion, Christian (and all its denominations), Jewish, Islam, Sikh, Hindu, et al?

Did the religious representative perform a mass blessing before individual burials, or individually bless every grave?

 

Do we know what infections soldiers contracted in hospitals in these days prior to Penicillin?  Or was Spanish Flu responsible for deaths also?

 

Thanks

[PRC]

38 minutes ago, Rupieroo said:

I contacted the NCB, well, actually, the organisation that one must contact is called IRON MOUNTAIN, in Staffordshire, with its HQ in Boston, Mass., USA!

 

For memory a data storage outsourcer for old manual records.

 

40 minutes ago, Rupieroo said:

My understanding is that NINOs were first introduced sometime after the Welfare Act of 1912 and greatly reformed by Attlee's government.  Possibly the distribution of NINOs in 1912, with war just two years away, wasn't a priority or completed.

 

The 1911 National Insurance Act inspired by Winston Churchill Labour Exchange Bill of 19o9 which had introduced the concept of National Insurance for employees in certain heavy industries to cover unemployment and sickness benefits did not introduce National Insurances Numbers as we know them in the UK. To the best of my knowledge National Insurance as it then applied also didn't involve any deductions from the wage packet and so the employer would not have had to keep note of any number. Reading through the Great War era newspapers  for example you will find reports of individual workers pursued through the courts for the payment of Income Tax. Their wartime pay rates combined with excess hours and bonuses brought them into the levels of income where the tax was payable and the recurring theme was that it was for the individual worker to pay, not for an employer to hold anything back to pay on their behalf. I've no doubt the same principle applied to the National Insurance payments at this time.

 

The National Insurance numbers were an overarching part of the various social measures reports commissioned by the unified government of Conservaties, Labour and Liberals during the 1940-45 war govering social security, healthcare, housing and education. The far-sighted vision was that a single unique number would provide access to all government services. Unfortunately the Labour Government in the run up to the the start of the NHS ducked it, retaining the old ID card reference  as a new NHS Number, rather than issue National Insurance numbers for every man woman and child. From memory, (working in a National Insurance Office in my twenties, not living through it!) at first National Insurance for all those liable to pay was done via the purchase of weekly fixed rate stamps at a post office, affixed to an annual card , but for employees this rapidly switched to deductions from the pay packet. However for the self employed, share fishermen, gang-masters and voluntary payers the annual exhange of cards and purchase of stamps was still going on into the mid-nineties. It took until the mid-nineties also for the NHS number to be replaced with the use of the NiNo and the Contributions Agency as it was then known going over to creating a National Insurance number following notification of birth.

 

All of which is a long-winded way of saying that a National Insurance number for a query pre-1950 is an absolute non-starter. The letter is mainly pro-forma stuff without taking into account the circumstances of your enquiry.

 

Forgive me if I've mis-remembered things, it's been over 25 years, (a scary thought), since this was part of my day to day life, and strangely enough I have been trying to forget it

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Rupieroo]

Hi Pete,

 

Thank you for the combination of the interesting, informative and humorous!  Sorry to stimulate your NINO-work memories!

 

I half expected that the NINO scheme wouldn't have been the identifier pre-1950 as it is today, but it was a surprise that such an inefficient system still operated in the mid-nineties.

 

Thank you, Pete.

 

Clive

[Rupieroo]

Hi,

 

Not much of an update:

 

Brother, Arthur Swain Williams (1891-1954), Private, 57980, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, awarded Victory and British medals.  In later life he lived 12 Kings Road, Paignton, Devonshire, died 1 April 1954 at Paignton and District Hospital, leaving to Ada Williams, widow, and his daughter, Mrs Dorothy Irene Dale, effects of £365 11s. 7d.

Sister, Henrietta Amplias Swain Williams (1882-1974) who married William Fenn, Mining Engineer,  in 1911.  Living in Flat 1, Arden Court, Beardsmore Road, Sutton Coldfield.  Mr Fenn died 5^th December 1973.  Henrietta died 26^th January 1974, bequeathing £500.00 to Lillian May Clarke, 5 Tamworth Road, Polesworth and £21,097.00 to her niece, Mrs Dorothy Irene Fogwell, 2 Norman Road, Paignton, Devon TQ3 2BE.  Her will is signed in 1973 as “x”

I am interested in her signing with an "x", which either indicates an inability of not being able to write, or a condition that restricted her in later life from signing.  I am also interested in how her death was so near to that of her husband.

Niece, Dorothy Irene Fogwell, Kingsmount Residential Home, 28-30 Kingshurst Drive, Paignton, Devon, TQ3 2LT, died, aged 93, 14^th February 2015.

I am awaiting correspondence from Dorothy's solicitor regarding any children and have ordered a copy of her will.

In the 1911 Census, the 16-year-old Clive was a colliery labourer for the Kingsbury Colliery Company.  With the school leaving age being 14, Clive could have been working at the mine for over two years.  

 

No further news here.

  I understand that Clive was a keen batsman and bowler for Tamworth Cricket Club Reserve Team.  He is mentioned in a Tamworth Herald article reporting the Club’s AGM at The Railway Inn, March 1915.  I will join the UK Newspaper History website to research further and to obtain ALL of the memorial notices.  I have also made contact with an American university that might hold records on every soldier who passed through Rouen General Hospital #12, when it became an American Base Hospital in 1917 until closure in 1919.