Research for film: Information on Postmen and Death Notices

[Matlock1418]

50 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, the chest stripes are for service.  I did mention this at the end of the section covering uniform.

Mea culpa - I missed that - sorry.  too busy speed looking at your other great info and the photos.

Any idea on what each stripe represented in terms of, presumably years, service?

:-/ M

Edited 18 September , 2020 by Matlock1418
addit

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Mea culpa - I missed that - sorry.  too busy speed looking at your other great info and the photos.

Any idea on what each stripe represented in terms of, presumably years, service?

:-/ M

 

Information courtesy of Hansard circa 1884:

SIR TREVOR LAWRENCE 

asked the Postmaster General, What is the cause of the delay in issuing the good service stripes, carrying an extra pay of 1s. a-week, promised some time ago to letter carriers who had served for five years; whether those stripes will be issued without further delay; and, whether letter carriers will receive back pay from the date on which they became entitled to those stripes?  
 

MR FAWCETT.

Sir, I think the hon. Member is under a misapprehension as to the bestowal of good conduct stripes on postmen. It was never intended that all postmen who had served for five years and upwards should have good conduct stripes; but a certain number of these stripes were allotted to each locality for distribution among the most deserving postmen. In cases in which there is any delay in filling up a vacancy, the postman upon whom the good conduct stripe is conferred receives the allowance which the stripe carries from the date of vacancy, or else from the date on which he completed the prescribed period of service. I may add that about 5,600 postmen are now the wearers of one or more good conduct stripes.

Edited 18 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

21 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Information courtesy of Hansard circa 1884:

Thanks

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

Another point to bear in mind was that, generally speaking, a telegram was almost always seen by ordinary people as carrying bad news. The mere sight of a telegraph-boy or postman coming down the street filled many people with dread. Sometimes, of course, the news would be good, e.g. that a missing soldier had returned to his unit or been traced to a hospital, but these would have been rarer.

 

Lieutenant Wilfred Owen was killed on 4 November 1918. It is said that his mother received notice of his death one week later, when bells were ringing out and the country was rejoicing at the signing of the Armistice. Something along these lines might well be incorporated in your film.

 

Ron

 

One messenger boy of WW1 recalled that after delivering a telegram they were instructed to wait in case the recipient wanted to reply. If so they would need to accept payment.  He said that telegrams with bad news bore a special mark on the envelope to indicate that he was not to wait.

 

There were Messenger Girls for the first time during the war, for the same reason that many young lads were involved in military effort in some way.  They too wore a uniform and insignia of a brass T accompanied by a number on their collars, or armband for summer blouses.

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

If Leila depicts a postman later in the war then he is likely to be surrounded by females.  It seems that in hot weather blouses or shift dresses were permitted wear along with an armband bearing a badge.

 

 

Edited 18 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

I just found this very telling account on the Communications Workers Union website:

“News of people being killed or lost or captured was often relayed by telegram and the telegram inevitably became associated with bad news,” explains Chris Taft of the award-winning new Postal Museum in London.

“In WW1 the arrival of the messenger boy filled people with dread. It’s hard to imagine what it must have been like for these youngsters, some as young as 14. Sometimes the person answering the door would collapse or faint at the sight of them – sometimes they were asked to read the telegram because the person it was intended for couldn’t bring themselves to read it. Often it was the very worst news, effectively relayed by children.”

 

I was also doing a little background reading on this forum regarding telegrams - despite what I said earlier about them only being sent to the families of officers, it seems that some soldiers service papers include copy telegrams sent to their families by the War Office informing them that their son / husband / father had been wounded and/or had died. Therefore the depiction of a telegram being delivered to the home of a soldier would be historically accurate. 

 

It also appears that the standard pro-forma 'fill in the blanks' letter that was more commonly delivered to soldiers' next-of-kin was sent in a standard 'OHMS' envelope. Therefore, the postman and the recipient would not know whether the enclosed letter was announcing their loved ones death, or whether it was relatively inconsequential news that they were in hospital with a non-life-threatening illness and were recovering well. 

 

EDIT: I've used the word 'telegram' repeatedly, but it was off course a 'telegraph'.... 

Edited 18 September , 2020 by headgardener
Playing fast and loose with historical accuracy

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, headgardener said:

I just found this very telling account on the Communications Workers Union website:

“News of people being killed or lost or captured was often relayed by telegram and the telegram inevitably became associated with bad news,” explains Chris Taft of the award-winning new Postal Museum in London.

“In WW1 the arrival of the messenger boy filled people with dread. It’s hard to imagine what it must have been like for these youngsters, some as young as 14. Sometimes the person answering the door would collapse or faint at the sight of them – sometimes they were asked to read the telegram because the person it was intended for couldn’t bring themselves to read it. Often it was the very worst news, effectively relayed by children.”

 

I was also doing a little background reading on this forum regarding telegrams - despite what I said earlier about them only being sent to the families of officers, it seems that some soldiers service papers include copy telegrams sent to their families by the War Office informing them that their son / husband / father had been wounded and/or had died. Therefore the depiction of a telegram being delivered to the home of a soldier would be historically accurate. 

 

It also appears that the standard pro-forma 'fill in the blanks' letter that was more commonly delivered to soldiers' next-of-kin was sent in a standard 'OHMS' envelope. Therefore, the postman and the recipient would not know whether the enclosed letter was announcing their loved ones death, or whether it was relatively inconsequential news that they were in hospital with a non-life-threatening illness and were recovering well. 

 

EDIT: I've used the word 'telegram' repeatedly, but it was off course a 'telegraph'.... 

 

That's very interesting HG.  I suspect that like so much the system evolved during the course of the war.  

 

I think that the casualty notification envelopes must have been marked at some point, if not for the whole of the war, given the quote I've given from a man who was apparently a Boy Messenger towards the end of WW1.

 

I'm confused by the Telegraph/Telegram differential too.  I suspect that it must have been just semantics and the Telegraph Office provided a Telegram service, but later (between the wars) the forms and envelopes were modified to use consistent terminology.

Edited 18 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think that the casualty notification envelopes must have been marked at some point, if not for the whole of the war, given the quote I've given from a man who was apparently a Boy Messenger towards the end of WW1.

 

The postmaster must have known the content of the messages (presumably telegrams / telegraphs), so maybe the example you cite was just a local arrangement designed to spare his young boy the trauma of having to face the distressed mother / widow / son or daughter. I'd imagine that some postmen and messengers must have ended up on the receiving end of a distressed family's raw grief.

Edited 18 September , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

The postmaster must have known the content of the messages (presumably telegrams / telegraphs), so maybe the example you cite was just a local arrangement designed to spare his young boy the trauma of having to face the distressed mother / widow / son or daughter. I'd imagine that some postmen and messengers must have ended up on the receiving end of a distressed family's raw grief.

 

Yes, I concede that does seem possible.  The only thing I would say in response to that is that anecdotal evidence would suggest that it was more than just a local arrangement.

[headgardener]

Well, I suppose that it could also have been a widely practised unofficial measure. Either option allows for some dramatic potential so far as Leila's project is concerned. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

Well, I suppose that it could also have been a widely practised unofficial measure. Either option allows for some dramatic potential so far as Leila's project is concerned. 

Yes, but it would be nice to know for sure what the officially sanctioned policy was.  I imagine that the postal museum will be able to give the answer.  I posted their link earlier in the thread.

[LeilaLay]

Hi all,

 

Thanks so much again for all the incredibly useful insights and great photographs/pictures.  

 

Just to touch on a few things that have been mentioned:

 

I found this account of a telegram girl during WW1: http://www.eastsussexww1.org.uk/olive-daisy-fullers-ww1-telegram-girl/index.html

 

Notably she mentions 'There was to be no sentiment in Olive’s official duties, she was only to knock the door and say “Telegram for Mrs ‘So & So’, will there be a reply?” She was permitted to wait for four minutes for a reply, but what reply could there be to such devastating news?'

 

So it seems like, at least in some cases, they were still required to wait even if it were bad news.

 

I also read that envelopes marked with a cross signified death notifications but, as touched upon above, it doesn't seem like this was necessarily commonplace.

 

Although I also would like to know what the official policy was and I have contacted the Postal museum (I will update when I receive a reply), it does seem like there is some room for creative license

 

My main issue at the moment is that for the story within the film to work, it does need to be the Postman who delivers the telegrams too (as part of the drama hinges on seeing the Postman and wondering whether it will be a much yearned for letter or much worse news so simultaneously looking forward to and dreading his appearance).  So I guess I am mainly trying to find out whether the postman would, or could, ever have doubled as a telegram boy in very small towns/villages.  I do realise that this would never have been the case in much larger cities.  I have read accounts which talk about dreading the arrival of the postman due to the death notifications but it is hard to tell whether they included the telegram boy within the general 'postman' bracket when speaking anecdotally.  Whilst it is a fictional film and so can have some creative license, it does need to be believable so I guess my question is whether this could be feasibly possible? (Whilst acknowledging it not the norm and this could even be mentioned by the character about how he has to do both duties due to x, y, z reasons)

 

I have also found a Royal Mail forum so I might try my luck on there!

[headgardener]

In answer to the question of whether the postman could plausibly be seen to deliver death notices - I think we've established that it was officers' next-of-kin who received death notices by telegram / telegraph, and that 'other ranks' generally (although not exclusively) received notice by standard post and that these appear to have arrived in plain OHMS envelopes which would not have any indication as to whether they contained 'good' or 'bad' news. I'm happy to be corrected on this point, but I think this means that telegram / telegraph boys & girls would not deliver the vast majority of death notices, and that this task would fall to the local postman. 

Something that we haven't established is whether all local Post Offices would necessarily have 'telegraph boys/girls'. My understanding is that the complement of staff would vary according to the size of the PO, so plausibly a very small rural PO might not have them, or might only have the minimum number (not sure what that might be - presumably 1?). I suspect that the Post Office Museum will be able to set you straight on this point.

Edited 19 September , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

I do hope that the Postal Museum replies to you with a properly researched answer Leila.  What headgardener has said seems likely to be the case to me, but I’ll be very interested to learn whatever else you may find.  The group photo that I posted with the single messenger boy sat on the floor centrally seems the probable scenario in most rural post offices.  But perhaps in your drama he could be off sick (e.g. broken leg - just don’t make it the sniffles), a situation that must have happened from time-to-time, and an opportunity for yet more drama among the characters and plot!

 

P.S.  Will your postman be old and with a chest full of good conduct badges, or a young fellow rejected for military service?  If the latter you will need a carefully thought through rationale for it to be conceivable.

Edited 19 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[LeilaLay]

 @headgardener thank you for clearing that up, I hadn't properly registered that vitally important detail but works well for the story as the soldier needn't have been an Officer which can eliminate the telegram issue although it would obviously be great to know and I will update with whatever I find out from the Postal Museum.

 

@FROGSMILE - yes! off sick/indisposed for whatever reason definitely works and adds to the drama.  The postman is supposed to be a younger guy and the story starts in 1916 (around the time conscription is introduced) so I'm currently thinking either that he is a returned soldier (having been wounded in the war) or that he isn't fit for service for other reasons (medically speaking).  Possibly even an amputee although realise that this would need not hamper too much with his post delivering abilities!  Having said that, maybe there isn't too much choice left in the village for Postmen at this stage!

 

The film is also centred around a dairy farm and I will probably be starting another thread soon about the Women's Land Army in WW1 - another area I'm struggling to find too much information on!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, LeilaLay said:

 @headgardener thank you for clearing that up, I hadn't properly registered that vitally important detail but works well for the story as the soldier needn't have been an Officer which can eliminate the telegram issue although it would obviously be great to know and I will update with whatever I find out from the Postal Museum.

 

@FROGSMILE - yes! off sick/indisposed for whatever reason definitely works and adds to the drama.  The postman is supposed to be a younger guy and the story starts in 1916 (around the time conscription is introduced) so I'm currently thinking either that he is a returned soldier (having been wounded in the war) or that he isn't fit for service for other reasons (medically speaking).  Possibly even an amputee although realise that this would need not hamper too much with his post delivering abilities!  Having said that, maybe there isn't too much choice left in the village for Postmen at this stage!

 

The film is also centred around a dairy farm and I will probably be starting another thread soon about the Women's Land Army in WW1 - another area I'm struggling to find too much information on!

An amputee would work and also give some contemporary resonance (Afghanistan/Iraq, etc.) for the audience.  
I would suggest that he might be a former young regular soldier of the BEF who lost one arm at the elbow.  There were composite, wood, metal and leather prosthetics for such men and with two good legs and his prosthetic arm one could imagine that he might still work, and the GPO be more inclined to take him on due partly to patriotism and partly to pragmatism, as young men were becoming harder to obtain.  Just a thought....

 

”In 1920, an article in The Times of London stated that “next to the loss of life, the sacrifice of a limb is the greatest sacrifice that a man can make for his country.” But the British government wasn’t prepared to assist the flood of amputees, even during the early months of the war, and several wealthy patrons quickly stepped in to establish private facilities for soldier rehabilitation. One of the most significant was Queen Mary’s Hospital, which focused on veterans who had lost limbs; this repurposed country home in southwest London soon became a global center for artificial limb design and fitting.”

 

 

Edited 19 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

It sounds like a very interesting project you're working on, Leila. 

 

A couple of comments that might add some context..... During WW1 the concept of 'Reserved' occupations which were exempt from conscription didn't really apply. Every man who fell within a certain age range (which was extended as the war went on) was considered liable for service and was required to register for conscription. They could then apply to a local Military Service Tribunal for an exemption. If granted, exemptions could be permanent or conditional or temporary (due to family circumstances, conscientious objection, no one else available to do the work, etc). The government issued a 'schedule' of occupations deemed vital to the war effort, and which was updated as the war progressed. I *think* it included farmers and postal workers, but any exemption granted to them would only last as long as the man was employed in that 'scheduled' capacity. Your postman could be someone who had returned from the war, or he could be an otherwise healthy individual facing the prospect of his role being taken by a newly discharged ex-serviceman at which point he would become liable for conscription (subject to his intention to apply for some form of exemption). 

 

Also, as an aside, men who had been discharged die to illness but who subsequently recovered might once again become liable for conscription. It wasn't an easy thing to get out of. 

Edited 19 September , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

.... and, you may find the Wellcome Collection to be of some interest. They have a large and very interesting collection of images and artefacts relating to medical treatments of all kinds, including early articulated prostheses such as the one posted by Frogsmile, plus lots of images of disabled servicemen during WW1 undergoing treatment and rehabilitation. The Collection itself is closed atm, but I think they have an easily searchable online catalogue of images. 

[LeilaLay]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

An amputee would work and also give some contemporary resonance (Afghanistan/Iraq, etc.) for the audience.  
I would suggest that he might be a former young regular soldier of the BEF who lost one arm at the elbow.  There were composite, wood, metal and leather prosthetics for such men and with two good legs and his prosthetic arm one could imagine that he might still work, and the GPO be more inclined to take him on due partly to patriotism and partly to pragmatism, as young men were becoming harder to obtain.  Just a thought....

 @FROGSMILE - thank you for the excellent suggestion and photographs again.  This would definitely work well.

 

@headgardener - yes I understand how it would not be easy to get out of for a seemingly fit man which is why I'm thinking of the amputee route.  Thanks also for pointing me towards the Wellcome Collection which does have some great online resources.

 

Thanks again and will keep you updated

[Kath]

Excerpt from an advert. for the Salvation Army:

Courtesy Ancestry: The Times 21 Mar. 1917.

 

[rolt968]

This might be of some use.

 

A number of postmen were Army Reservists (who had served with the colours and were liable to be recalled immediately on mobilisation). In a village I have been researching there was an article in the newspaper about four postmen (I suspect that was all the postmen in the village!) who lived in the same street and were mobilised immediately in August 1914. (Actually one of them had finished his time on the reserve, but joined up again anyway.) One of the postmen in the next parish was also a reservist. Two of the four had been killled by the end of October 1914. The man from the next parish was killed in May 1915.

 

RM

Edited 21 September , 2020 by rolt968

[LeilaLay]

Thank you @Kath and @rolt968 - very interesting.

 

Can I ask how big the village was @rolt968?  It would be great to get an idea of the size of a village which had 4 postmen.

[rolt968]

7 minutes ago, LeilaLay said:

Thank you @Kath and @rolt968 - very interesting.

 

Can I ask how big the village was @rolt968?  It would be great to get an idea of the size of a village which had 4 postmen.

I'll look up my notes and send you a PM (personal message). They would have been serving much more than the village.  There was a considerable farming area around it.

[headgardener]

The PO had set procedures for staffing their branches. You may want to take a look at the PO's annual 'Staff Establishment Book' for 1914 as this will list the staff employed at local PO's across the UK. The PO museum hold copies, so maybe ask them if they could check the Establishment for a village such as Manningtree. 

 

EDIT: you may find that there was a principal PO branch controlled by a Postmaster in a larger village plus several 'Sub-Postmasters' in surrounding villages (these were local men employed to gather and distribute mail in their village and deliver to or collect from the local Postmaster). Sounds like that may be what Rolt968 is describing. 

Edited 21 September , 2020 by headgardener

[Kath]

Leicester University Special Collections Online.

Manningtree p420 Kelly's Directory 1914:

http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/61010/rec/2