5th Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry - Feb 1916 - two men

[Aurel Sercu]

Let's start at once with my question : I am trying to find information on Privates Charles Cyrus NORCOTT, 17625, and Harold CURTIS, 15653.

Both have their names on the Menin Gate Memorial (Ypres) and died in my village Boezinge (Boesinghe) just north of Ypres. Their date of deaht is registered (CWGC) as on 11 February 1916. (Though I tend to believe it was two or three days prior to that date.)

 

This is why I am interested.

I am doing a piece of research on a specific row of 5th Ox & Bucks L.I. men in 'my' Talana Farm Cemetery, Boezinge. It is the ony (!) row of 1916 graves in the cemetery (which has over 500 IDs).

This row has six graves. One of them is an Unknown, and I believe this Unknown man can be one of the two I mentioned, Charles C. Norcott or Harold Curtis. (Of course I will never be able to conclude if indeed the Unknown grave is of one of these two, or of which one.

But I'd like to know a little more on these two men.

 

As to Pte Charles Cyrus Norcott I found a few things on the internet. born (and resided) Farnham Royal, Slough, 5 Dec. 1898, parents John (cowman) and Rose (née Elderfield), 5, Corner Cottages, Farnham Royal. His name on the local WW1 memorial. But that's all ...

As to Pre Harold CURTIS : ... nothing.

 

Somehow I hope that someone - maybe with an interest in this 5th Bn Ox & Bucks L. I. - may have more information, though I'm afraid that ... A needle in a haystack ?

(Also this : I have no subscriptions ...)

 

Aurel

 

 

 

[johntanner]

Name:	Harold Curtis
Birth Place:	Greet, Warwicks
Residence:	Northfields, Warwicks
Death Date:	11 Dec 1916
Death Place:	France and Flanders
Enlistment Place:	Birmingham
Rank:	Private
Regiment:	Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry
Battalion:	5th Battalion
Regimental Number:	15653
Type of Casualty:	Killed in action
Theatre of War:	Western European Theatre

[johntanner]

Father, William Curtis 38 High Street, Henley in Arden.

 

Afraid I have to go back to work now but will see what else I can find later.

[sadbrewer]

From The Northampton Mercury, March 3rd, 1916.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive 

 

[Aurel Sercu]

Johntanner,

 

Thanks ! This extra information makes him more 'visible' to me ! More than just a name on the Menin Gate Memorial. (And ... maybe more than a nameless headstone in Talana Farm Cemetery ...)

 

By the way, where did you find the info in your first posting ? (I'm only asking because the Death Date is not correct (should be Feb instead of Dec).

 

Aurel

 

[Aurel Sercu]

Sadbrewer,

Thanks !

Yes, Haskew and Hutt are the two graves adjacent to the Unknow grave (died resp. 6 and 8 Feb. 1916).

And Alfred Charles Sim(m)ons, 18105, is on the Menin Gate Memorial too. (However, I tend not to believe he could be the Unknown. For he died ten days before, and considering the order in that row ...)

 

Aurel

[johntanner]

Aurel

 

It’s the date in Soldiers Died, at least as transcribed on line.  I’ll cross check later agains my low tech printed copy.

 

John

[johntanner]

According to the 1911 Census, when he was living at 2 Manila Road, Selly Park Birmingham, he was a barman aged 17.  His widOwed father was a 70 year old wardrobe dealer and his 14 year old bother John, a butcher.

[johntanner]

In the 1901 census at 249 Warwick Road, Yardley, with his parents (William and Laura), older brother (William), three older sisters (Edith, Mary and Laura), another older married sister (Lilian Taylor), and John.

 

Back to work now, but this is much more interesting.

 

John

 

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Johntanner.

A couple of hours ago I knew nothing about Harold Curtis. Now I know a dozen times (and more) more than nothing.

SDGW must have the incorrect month. There is no doubt (I think) that he died in February 1916. (But I think that it was a couple of days before 11 Feb. Why do I think that ? Because his Bn was relieved on 9 Feb,, and on 10 Feb they were in France already. For some reason his (and Norcott's) death was registered a couple of days later. Maybe because these two men were found by relieving troops? Anyway, that's only a "detail" ...)

 

Aurel

[johntanner]

 

And here he is from a family tree on Ancestry.

[johntanner]

[Aurel Sercu]

A portrait ! Even three ! I had not even dared to to think it was possible !

Thanks !

[johntanner]

Just lucky - unfortunately no pictures of Norcott. Glad I was able to help.

 

Hope someone’s able to get as far with my French map reference query!
 

John

[Aurel Sercu]

"One really must be a (former) teacher or a nitpicker to ask such question." That's what I am afraid readers will wonder when reading this posting. Well, they are right. For the first part that is. The second too ?  :-)

 

Right now I am finalizing an article. In it the name of Battalion is repeated again and again, a dozen or two dozen and more times.

So now I wonder: what is the official name of the regiment? On the internet and in publications I have read some variations. Like:

Oxford & Bucks Light Infantry, or

Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry, or

Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry and

Ox & Bucks Light Infantry (both on The Long Long Trail).

And all of these also with  &  instead of  and, or with L. I.

Reading these again I agree : this is nitpicking indeed ...

It's not that I really want a clear answer ...

 

But I would (also) like to learn an answer to the question : what if I simply use the 5th Ox & Bucks, after first writing the official name for the battalion once or twice,

 

If you think : Who cares? We sure all know what is meant!, then I only want to hear if this does not sound ... disrespectful or too informal (in written English). Maybe this short form has some connotation that I - as a non-native writer - cannot feel ...

 

Nitpicker Aurel

[johntanner]

Aurel

 

According to the Army List it's  the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry.

 

John

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, John.

 

And do you think using the informal  5th Bn Ox & Bucks  after using the full and correct name first is OK ? It's short, easy, and practical. (And in my ears it sounds ... nice.)

 

Aurel

[Mike Cross]

Aurel

 

I am a volunteer at the Soldiers of Oxfordshire Museum but my interest lies in our other Great War regiment - the Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars.  So I asked a colleague; here is his answer to your query:-

 

"The naming of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry, and connected but subsidiary issues like shoulder badges has been a subject of fascination to generations of officers, and possibly Senior NCOs. The one version they emphatically do NOT like is OBLI. Because he was writing the History, George Elliott set down what it should be and this was accepted by ORACLE.

 

In the Style Guide we publish for Bugle and Sabre***, we say the first time the Regiment is mentioned, it should be spelled out in full. Subsequent mentions can be abbreviated to Oxf & Bucks LI, or to the familiar names used such as 'The Oxfords' or 'The Bucks' (in the case of the Buckinghamshire Battalions)."

 

Hope that helps.

 

MC

 

***  Our annual magazine.

 

 

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, MC.

So the official name is no problem anymore now for me.

 

Just this. You write:

"(...) Subsequent mentions can be abbreviated to Oxf & Bucks LI, (...)"

Just to be sure ... Oxf with an -f ? (I'm also asking because Oxf is not really pronounceable.)

 

In my own context here (in Flanders) I myself always say "Ox and Bucks", but of course, not being a native speaker / writer ... And as I said before: my fundamental problem was that maybe Ox and Bucks is far too informal, or may have a connotation that I am not aware of.

 

And also this: until two days ago I had never seen OBLI. But then indeed a GWF member metnioned it to me in an e-mail off Forum.

 

Aurel

[Mike Cross]

Hi Aurel

 

Oxf & Bucks LI is our own preferred abbreviation but having given the full title earlier in any article that you compose I guess any recognisable short version would be clear to your readership.  OBLI is seriously disliked by regimental purists.  (Best not ask about Ox & Jocks which is a bit of an insult).

 

I agree that 'Oxf' is unpronouceable in any language.  I would suggest that the F is silent on those occasions that readers are faced with it.  Or dispense with it.

 

Mike

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Mike.

And I also think that linguistically this is interesting ! (I used to be a language teacher.) Questions like : Does this or that have some (negative) connotation ? Or why is this (nickname or abbreviation) disliked or considered an insult ... (Not that I'd like you to answer !)

I even wonder: "Ox & Bucks" ... Does a native speaker associate this with the animals ? Ox too ? (Yes, I know, the plural form is Oxen ...)

No, no need to reply ! :-)

 

Aurel

 

P.S. Added 10 minutes later... I've just had a closer and longer look at Brigade War Diaries (typewritten), and now indeed for the first time I noticed the -f in Oxf and Bucks L. I.

Edited 22 August , 2020 by Aurel Sercu
additioned P.S.

[Aurel Sercu]

I have just finished the article I started this topic for.

If someone should wish to receive it, please let me know, in a PM or by e-mail, what your e-mail address is.

It is a 6.5 MB PDF, has (almost) 22 pages, but with 29 photos and illustrations.

The title is 1916 : All Quiet in Talana Farm Cemetery.

This is my 'favourite' cemetery in Boezinge (just north of Ypres).

 

The subject is the 6 or 7 graves of 5th Bn Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry graves in the cemetery, the only graves of 1916. (42nd Brigade, 14th Division). These men died end of January and the beginning of February 1916.

 

Their names:

Private PRENTICE, W., 19450, Age 32, 23 Jan., III. C. 1

Lance Corporal MACE Edward John, 17989, Age 20, 24 Jan., “B” Coy, III. B. 1

Private WALLINGTON William Arthur, 18428, Age 28, 25 Jan., III. C. 3

Private MANN J., 19230, 26 Jan., III. C. 2

Private HASKEW George, 17607, Age 23, 6 Feb., “D” Coy, III. C. 4

Private HUTT F., 10498, 8 Feb., III. C. 5

 

I also try to identify the Unknown man in the row. Is he Pte Harold CURTIS, 15653, or Pte Charles Cyrus NORCOTT, 17625? Or ...?

So, if you're interested ... (And I will appreciate.)

 

Aurel

Edited 29 August , 2020 by Aurel Sercu
typos

[johntanner]

Aurel I’ve sent you a pm. John

[Kevin Tobin]

The Soldiers of Oxfordshire Museum as quoted by Mike Cross above have the trio of medals for Charles Cyrus NORCOTT, 17625, in their collection.

 

Also in relation to the title of the Regiment the shoulder title has the F

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Kevin. And I'll send you an e-mail soon after this.

Aurel

Edited 31 August , 2020 by Aurel Sercu