Who were these Soldiers?

[Muerrisch]

....The bells in the belfry were playing Tipperary'."

Now I would really like to know how that was done!!

carrillon. no problem for a carrillon.

Impossible with change ringing bells, of course, although a musician might fiddle the right sequence.

I'm afraid treble bobbing and single oxford minor is about my limit

[chris.wight]

I checked the on-line MICs and couldn't find an officer with the name J.W.Muirhead. There was a J.M. in the Indian Army, but I suspect it wasn't him.

Paul, there is a mention of Lt. J. W. Muirhead in the London Gazette, Issue 30658, link.

ROYAL REGIMENT OF ARTILLERY.

R.H. and R.F.A.—Batt. Qr.-Mr.-Serjt. Philip Chapman to be 2nd Lt. for service in the Field. 5th, Apr. 1918.

The initials of Capt. (actg. Maj.) G. P. Richardson are as now described, and not as in the Gazette of 16th Apr. 1917.

Temp. 2nd Lt. J. W. Muirhead, from A.S.C., to be temp. 2nd Lt. 23rd Dec. 1917.

There is an MIC listing for a Lieutenant John Wallis Muirhead, Royal Field Artillery, link.

Same fellow?

[Paul Reed]

Thanks for that Chris - how strange it didn't come up in the search I did! It could well be him - pity the source of the story wasn't quoted so we can check.

[J T Gray]

....The bells in the belfry were playing Tipperary'."

Now I would really like to know how that was done!!

carrillon. no problem for a carrillon.

Impossible with change ringing bells, of course, although a musician might fiddle the right sequence.

I'm afraid treble bobbing and single oxford minor is about my limit

Agreed - Britain is almost unique in having bells hung for ringing full circle (about 70 towers outside the British Isles - that's all), and ringing PATTERNS rather than tunes on them. With bells struck rather than rung full circle you need much less space, and can hang musical sets without any trouble.

Many continental bells are set up as carillons and tune playing really is an option. The cathedral at Nijmegen in the Netherlands actually has what looks for all the world like an organ for playing theirs.

Shall we get back to WW1 now, chaps?

Adrian

(LB1418, you are showing off! I am limited to plonking away behind doubles methods, and plain hunt!)

[chris.wight]

Paul, it is frustrating to come across such a passage in a book and then to be unable to find its source.

I just found out Martin Gilbert has his own website with a contact option and sent a note asking for the source (I won't hold my breathe waiting for a reply! ). Should I get a reply I will post it here.

[chris.wight]

I have been poking around a bit and a notice that the 3rd Canadian Division prepared a special report on the advance to Mons which we can all read  here .

Following James' lead, the following units were attached to the 3rd Canadian Division for operations to Mons:

1 section "D" Battery, R.H.A.

5th Lancers

1 troop "D" Special Squadron, R.N.W.M.P.

1st Canadian Divisional Artillery

126th Army Brigade, R.F.A.

8th Army Brigade, C.F.A.

19th Brigade, R.G.A.

1 company, Canadian Corps Cyclist Battalion

Link to page.

Interestingly, there is mention made of "church bells pealed and the chimes played National Anthems, including "TIPPERARY", which appeared to be still considered as a National Anthem of the British.", link to page.

[AGWR]

According to SDGW, only two men from the Rifle Brigade died on 11/11/18. One died of wounds in France and Flanders, the other died in India.

It's a sobering thought that, according to the same source, 495 ORs and 18 Officers died on 11/11/18. Interestingly, of this number only 20 ORs are listed as killed in action.

Regards

AGWR

[Muerrisch]

[

(LB1418, you are showing off! I am limited to plonking away behind doubles methods, and plain hunt!)

been learning seven years, two steps forwards, one back, sometimes the converse.

My 19 Quarters have been several 'tenor behind', lots of 'hunting treble', and three inside in bob doubles.

Gawd its hard for an old geezer.

Back to the war.

[andigger]

I will have to be more careful over the authors that I read. But how do you chose?

I can understand differences of opinion but when it is a matter of fact, surely the author should ensure that he is correct?

Regards Geoff

Geoff... As an avid reader I ponder this question each time I read a book. I think though we an excellent source to confirm the facts in this Forum. This thread has fascinated me, and like Paul... I am probably not getting the book because of it.

Andy

[Muerrisch]

Books [and articles] without sources/ footnotes/ endnotes/bibliography are a bit iffy in my opinion: the reader's legitimate question is 'what is the evidence for this statement?'

There again, secondary sources are far from ideal. At least these days primary sources are within the grasp of many people with PC access, or the ability to attend NA, for example, with digicam.

When I started as an amateur [but serious] mlitary historian c. 1980, life was hard. However, there is no substitute for scribbling in notebooks: you learn as you write. The prime academic [as opposed to populist] expert on Isandhlwana did his research in longhand in the 1970's, and knows everything about everything, so is in a strong posture to synthesise the facts into a coherent whole.

[StAubyns]

There is a very comprehensive Bibliography in the book. First is a list of books which covers almost 4 pages. Then a list of articles (half a page) followed by a list of documents that is almost a page in length.

Prior to the Bibliography there are 18 pages of notes. To quote the author "source notes are keyed to the books page numbers and a quotation or phrase on that page,Citatations from books, periodicals and other attributed sources begin with the authors name followed by the title & page numbers.Sources arefully identified in the bibliography"

My initial qote that started this thread is on page 348 in the book. Ther are no notes for page 348.

Regards Geoff

[harribobs]

I am just reading this book myself, i have run across a couple of small things that have irritated me, not enough to post but

p152 , last para

'perhaps the saddest spectacle involved the execution of three 'bantams' all from county durham, william stones, peter goggins and john macdonald. they had originally been rejected by the army because they were too short. when manpower demands drove down the height requirement, they volunteered, becoming part of a 'bantam division' they were shot at dawn on january 18th 1917, for reasons lost in the military archives.'

my first thought was he was saying that guys in bantams divisions were not as 'brave' as their taller compatriots and it was a shame to execute them. however we have just looked at this very case in the lancs and ches WFA and just about the full details of their court martial does exist, and as much as you may argue against a death penalty in the army, there certainly was a strong case against them

chris

[chris.wight]

Thanks for that Chris - how strange it didn't come up in the search I did! It could well be him - pity the source of the story wasn't quoted so we can check.

Paul, much to my surprise I received an answer from Martin Gilbert. He indicates the Lt. J.W. Muirhead bit came from a journal called "Gunfire". The unfortunate part is he was unable to furnish the exact issue.

Are you familiar with this journal?

[AGWR]

Chris,

Follow this link:

http://www.ghsmith.com/worldwar1/gunfire.html

Regards,

AGWR

[chris.wight]

Thanks for the link, AGWR!

[chris.wight]

Here's Lt. J. W. Muirhead's M.I.C.

[rflory]

According to War Services of Officers of the Army, 1920 there is also a Lieutenant J W Muirhead, 6Bn, Seaforth Highlanders. MID in LG 28 Dec 18. Dick Flory

[chris.wight]

Thanks for that, Dick.

I did find a Captain James Muirhead, Seaforth Highlanders, link. I am not certain if this is him as there was a Captain James Muirhead, M.C. 1st Battalion Seaforth Highlanders (M.C. awarded for bravery at Tabsor on Sept. 19, 1918 - Palestine).