StAubyns Posted 21 February , 2005 Share Posted 21 February , 2005 I am currently reading "11th Month, 11th day, 11th Hour" by Joseph E Persico. The following stopped me reading further for several minutes. "Crossing a bridge into the city, the Canadians came upon the bodies of three men of the London Rifle Brigade killed earlier that morning. Each wore the Mons Star, which meant that they had fought in the 1914 retreat, surviving for four years only to die in the same place on the last day of the war" Who were these men? It really brings home the futility of war. Regards geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Complete fiction: the LRB did qualify for the 14 Star, but did not arrive in Flanders until November 1914. They were not at Mons. On 11th November 1918 they were at Bavai, not Mons, and not in action. 'Soldiers Died' also confirms no men from the battlion died on this day. For more info on the LRB see: http://battlefields1418.50megs.com/5londons.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 22 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2005 I will have to be more careful over the authors that I read. But how do you chose? I can understand differences of opinion but when it is a matter of fact, surely the author should ensure that he is correct? Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 There seems to be a common thread amongst many recent authors, jumping on the military history bandwagon, that facts are irrelevant where a good story is concerned. I must say I haven't read this book, but this one quote has put me off even bothering to look for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Hi A question - I thought that all the campaign medals were awarded after the war - The quote would suggest that the Mons Star distributed during the war? regards doogal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 The 1914 ('Mons') Star was instituted in 1917. The ribbon was worn from about that time onwards. The medal was not issued until 1919 at the earliest to my knowledge, but many men wore the ribbon in combat in the last year or so of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 L.R.B.'s last attack was on the 6th November with the final objective being Montignies, they were relieved by the 7th Middlesex at 9pm the same day. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J T Gray Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 I believe, although I don't have my copy of the IWM book of 1918 to hand to check in, that the last Canadian (last man?) killed (at 10.58) on 11.11.18 is buried in the same cemetery within a few yards of soldiers killed on the first day of action in 1914. Sounds to me like someone has read this and over-egged the cake... Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 22 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2005 The same book - quote "Just beyond Mons, the Canadian 2nd Division was still attacking an enemy holed up in a row of miners' houses. A sniper shot rang out at 10:58 AM and struck Private George Price, 38th Northwest Infantry Battalion. Price was officially declared the last Canadian to die in the war" Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J T Gray Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 That's the chap! Want me to try to look out the paragraph? Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 He was actually in the 28th Battalion; not the 38th - another mistake? And he is buried in St Symphorien Cemetery, near Mons, in the same plot as Lt Maurice Dease - one of the first VCs of the war - and close to the grave of the first British solider killed in France and Flanders, Pte J.Parr of the 4th Middlesex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 We have had discussions about this Mons business in the past, for example here . It is always interesting to read these bits of information, but it seems they are always in conflict with one another. It is a good thing we have forums like this where we can thrash things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 22 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Just checked to make sure I hadn't made a typo - it definately says the 38th in the book. regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 But there were soldiers at Mons on both occasions: 2RWF for example. Frank Richards among them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 22 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Looking at the previous thread, we now have two sources saying that there were 3 soldiers killed in Mons on the 11th with the Mons Star - so the disagreement is the regiment that they served with? regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Looking at the previous thread, we now have two sources saying that there were 3 soldiers killed in Mons on the 11th with the Mons Star - so the disagreement is the regiment that they served with? Just because they had the "Mons Star" does not mean that they had previously been anywhere near Mons. They could have arrived in theatre as late as 22nd November 1914 and therefore would have played absolutely no part in the retreat. That makes two errors, both extremely substantial. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Looking at the previous thread, we now have two sources saying that there were 3 soldiers killed in Mons on the 11th with the Mons Star - so the disagreement is the regiment that they served with? regards Geoff The source is Martin Gilbert: "The war was over. Marching into Mons, Lieutenant J.W. Muirhead saw the corpses of three British soldiers 'each wearing the medal ribbon of the 1914 Mons Star. They had been killed by machine gun fire that morning. As we got into Mons there were bodies of many of the enemy lying in the streets, also killed that day....Boys were kicking them in the gutter....The bells in the belfry were playing Tipperary'." Who is not a 'source' in his own right; and it was noted he unusually provided no footnote for this story. I checked the on-line MICs and couldn't find an officer with the name J.W.Muirhead. There was a J.M. in the Indian Army, but I suspect it wasn't him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 22 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2005 So, is the story complete fiction, a story with an element of truth or is there an accepted version of these events? It seems that this a long running saga that keeps raising its head from time to time? regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 .............. just to see if I had an example of Mons 1914 followed by Mons 1918 dead on my RWF data base: none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 It seems that this a long running saga that keeps raising its head from time to time? Well, in 25+ years of researching the Great War, I had not come across this story until you posted it. Having read one or two books during that time one would have thought to have seen some mention of it; and it is interesting to note that it appears in two recent books on the war. I can only leave you to draw your own conclusion to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 But there were soldiers at Mons on both occasions: 2RWF for example. Frank Richards among them. I don't think - or would hope - that anyone would dispute that. But that it is a world away from having three Mons Star men lying dead in the streets of Mons where they had all fought four years before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 But that it is a world away from having three Mons Star men lying dead in the streets of Mons where they had all fought four years before. I was wondering how LIKELY the event, never mind the unit. The only regiment I could tackle was RWF. It might be an idea for others to look at their own data bases. 2RWF were still taking kia up to 4 November 1918, and not at all far from Mons. I agree it is unlikely that any three Mons men [not star men] were killed second time round, but, you never know .............. Should not be difficult to research. Was the unit at Mons 1914 and 1918? If yes, 1914 roll with clasp annotations [in a data base] should have death dates. Cross check with SDIGW or CWGC. Fails to take account of a soldier changing regiments, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPotter Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 ....The bells in the belfry were playing Tipperary'." Now I would really like to know how that was done!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted 22 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2005 If I dare, just one more quote from the book, this time from the blurb "This book is sure to become the definitive history of the end of the conflict Winston Churchill called the hardest, cruellest and least rewarded of all wars that have been fought" Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 I have been poking around a bit and a notice that the 3rd Canadian Division prepared a special report on the advance to Mons which we can all read here . Since Mons was in the area of operations of this Division during this period this should, I think, be one of the primary reference documents. Of course, we could expect them to concentrate on the exploits on their own units, but they certainly mention the attached British units, such as the 5th Lancers. It is difficult to see how any units not under 3rd Division command could have been present at this time. Perhaps there were other units off to one or the other flanks whose exploits were later lumped together under the general term "The Race to Mons". Incidently, I have not yet slogged through the whole of this report, so I stand to be corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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