Can anyone help me understand WW1 Service Record

[PRC]

3 hours ago, ianuk said:

@Keith-jistory-buff: I can confirm that my grandfather was a Jew born in Leeds and that he lived, and died, here in Ipswich after he married.

 

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Have we established his exact DOB?

 

In reverse order

 

The quarterly GRO index of deaths for England & Wales shows the death of a Sydney Cyril Franklin in the Ipswich District in Q1 of 1973. By this point the published index included the stated date of birth - in this case the 25th April 1900.

 

The 1939 Register has no match for him, but if he was a Reservist he would have been mobilised by the time the Register was taken on the 29th September 1939, and if he was on base then he would not have been included. As a check I went looking for a marriage to see if the wife (and thus husband) could be located on the 1939 National Register.

 

The marriage of a Sydney C S Franklin to a Helen M Butcher was recorded in the Ipswich District in Q2 of 1927. The 1939 Register has a married woman, Helen M. Franklin, born 21st December 1905 and carrying out unpaid domestic duties, as the first person in the household at 14 Richmond Road, Norwich. The second person in the household is an Edward L Franklin, born 15th September 1927, (the birth of an Edward L A Franklin, mothers maiden name Butcher, was registered with the civil authorities in the Ipswich District in Q4 1927), there are then three officially closed entries and then finally an older, unmarried woman, Florence M. Butcher, born 15th August 1889 and a Confectioner & Grocer. (Most likely three younger children and their maiden aunt)

 

The Royal Fusiliers record of enlistment, (aged 18 years and 2 months on the 23rd February 1917) would therefore appear to be out a bit - if that date of birth in the death records is correct he would only have been 16 years and nearly 10 months. When he enlisted in the Tank Corps in August 1922 age is given as 22.

 

There is no straight match in the Civil Birth records of England & Wales. Looking at the GRO birth index for the Leeds Registration District there is a Sydney Franklin, (no middle names), mothers' maiden name Nathan, whose birth was registered in the April to June quarter of 1900. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is an 11 month old Sydney Franklin, born Leeds, who was living at 2 Firth Place, Leeds. This was the household of parents Louis, (aged 30, Tailors Dresser, born Manchester) and "Flor. Leah(?)", (aged 29, born Leeds) On the 1911 Census of England & Wales, the 10 year old Sydney, (grandson) and a 38 year old Florence Franklin, (daughter) were recorded living in the household of the widowed Rachel Nathan.

 

So while not entirely conclusive the strong money must be on the 25th April 1900 as being the date of birth.

 

Some of the being economical with the truth may be down to attempts to cover his underage service.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

6 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

His service record is confirmed as being with the MOD.

The Excel files for this man list his DOB as April 26th 1900.

11005

ADT000231913

File

4528455

FRANKLIN S

1900-04-26

He doesn't appear in the 1939 Register at his home address.

Presumably therefore he had already been conscripted ?

Edited 24 July , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

death of a Sydney Cyril Franklin in the Ipswich District in Q1 of 1973. By this point the published index included the stated date of birth - in this case the 25th April 1900.

Ha. Just seen your post.

[PRC]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

So while not entirely conclusive the strong money must be on the 25th April 1900 as being the date of birth

 

5 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The Excel files for this man list his DOB as April 26th 1900.

 

Lots of scope for errors in both sources, although the GRO document definately say the 25th - you had me worried when I saw your post in case it was my dodgy eyesight.

Of course what it said in the actual local register, what was transcribed in the returns to Registrar General, what was transcribed into the central records, what was recorded when an alphabetised quarterly index was typed out, what was set into the printers block and what was published may not all have said the same thing

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

15 minutes ago, PRC said:

you had me worried when I saw your post in case it was my dodgy eyesight.

Nah!

I'd posted independently of yours and a few seconds later, not having looked for the date of death.

So, the birth in Leeds confirms 1900, in which case he would not have been eligible to vote in December 1918, but almost certainly is the man in the AVL.

[Keith_history_buff]

With regard to the original post, asking 'Can anyone help me work out his regiment and rank timeline'

18 Aug 1914 Enlists in the King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry)
23 Sep 1914 Discharged from the King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry) for being under age
 

23 Feb 1917 Enlists, implying he was born in or around December 1898.
                     Starts army life in 2/1st Queen's Own Yorkshire Dragoons

20 Jun 1917 Appointed to Lance Corporal
08 Sep 1917 "Dis-appointed" (my words) and reduced to entry rank of Private (no "rank vs appointment" nit-picking please, which is out of scope of this thread)
03 Oct 1917 Transferred to 87th Training Reserve Battalion, formerly 21st (Reserve) Bn, the Durham Light Infantry (Source: longlongtrail)

08 Dec 1917 Transferred to 53rd (Young Soldier) Battalion of the King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry) having its roots in 11th (Reserve) Battalion of the King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry)     (Source: longlongtrail) He therefore seems to have served with this regiment, very briefly, in both 1914 & 1917 
22 Dec 1917 Transferred to Royal Fusiliers
29 Sep 1917 From this date, retrospectively in receipt of good conduct pay?

Hereafter, whilst he is with the 38th Battalion, he is appointed to Lance Corporal, reverts to Private, and is acting Corporal thereafter.

As I understand it, the sheet from his army service record is with his RAF airman service record (AIR 79), which can be accessed if you subscribe to either Fold3 or FMP? 

[Keith_history_buff]

The significance of December 1917 is that, as far as the army were concerned, that was when he turned 19 according to their records, and could go on Active Service.

[PRC]

41 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

With regard to the original post, asking 'Can anyone help me work out his regiment and rank timeline'

18 Aug 1914 Enlists in the King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry)
23 Sep 1914 Discharged from the King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry) for being under age
 

08 Dec 1917 Transferred to 53rd (Young Soldier) Battalion of the King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry) having its roots in 11th (Reserve) Battalion of the King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry)     (Source: longlongtrail) He therefore seems to have served with this regiment, very briefly, in both 1914 & 1917 
22 Dec 1917 Transferred to Royal Fusiliers

 

8 hours ago, PRC said:

The Former Service notes column has this:-

So different service number with the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, (1625 vs 11197) and a different length of service - (1 year 30 days versus 1 month),

 

Which would account for the two KOYLI service numbers - length of service he told the Tank Corps will need to be taken with a large pinch of salt

 

Cheers,

Peter

[ianuk]

Hi Guys,

I wasn't able to check this thread yesterday afternoon but am amazed with the interest it has generated and impressed with all your detective work! Yes; my grandfather was born 25 April 1900 in Leeds, married Helen Butcher 8 May 1927 here in Ipswich and died 18 March 1973 here in Ipswich.

Before WW1 his next of kin would have been his mother in Leeds. His siblings then emigrated to Australia over the following years then, last of all, his mum emigrated there 12 July 1927 so this may explain why there is a Florence Leah Franklin in Australia shown as his Next of Kin on his Service Record, although I would have thought his records would show his wife, rather than his mother, as Next of Kin after 1927.

Sydney loved the Air Force and seemed to drift in and out of it several times during the years between the wars. He seemed to spend a lot of time posted in Germany between the wars, perhaps because he grew up in a family speaking Yiddish (which is very similar to German) so could speak the native language. I have no photos of him wearing medals but have some photos of him stationed in Atona at end of 2nd World War one of which shows stripes on the sleeve of his shirt. Another photo taken in that era, but maybe later, also shows him wearing an armband with a C on it. I also have a photo, again of that era, of him in an armoured vehicle (think someone mentioned a Tank Corps earlier on but this photo may be a red herring). I also think I have a photo (maybe taken after WW2) of him in his Air Force shirt but wearing a black armband but cannot find it at the moment.

There were a couple of events that occurred in his life between the wars (not suitable for discussion on a Public Forum like this) which could make me understand why he may have wanted to change his identity so the fact that you are suggesting that he used a slightly different name and was assigned a different Service Number during a subsequent spell in the RAF would not surprise me. Full marks to the RAF Recruitment Team for sussing out his previous history!

Ian.

[headgardener]

I *think * that in this instance 'RTO' is likely to stand for 'Railway Transport Office'. Hamburg was an important port of entry into Germany for British troops in the immediate post war period. The fact that he spoke German (as you may already know, the word 'Yiddish' is a corruption of the German word 'Juedisch', and it is basically a sort of 'pidgin' German), so this would have presumably have enabled him to communicate directly with local German railway authorities. I wonder if his uniform is that of the 'Control Commission' (controlling the administration of the British Zone of Occupation, which may explain the armband with the letter 'C'. 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Ian,

Glad to see you are happy with the group effort on here to tie down your father's WW1 service, based on the Army Form B 200 that was with his AIR 79 airman's service record. (In a similar manner I have come across the Royal Marine attestation form for a man who briefly served with them, and enlisted in the RAF after demobilisation). it is a shame that his army Military History Sheet is not showing, which would break out his time served in the UK & overseas from 1917 to 1920.

Given that the RAF service record covers his service from 7 September 1923 to 26 September 1926, this would explain why his wife, whom he married on 8 May 1927, is not on the service record.

With regard to service numbers, it is interesting that he served for a year, re-enlisted in September 1923 and retained his original service record. A friend's grandfather enlisted in the TA prior to the outbreak of WW2. He re-enlisted in 1946, following repatriation from a POW camp and demobilisation in the UK, but to my surprise he retained his old number. 

With regard to army service numbers, I am more used to seeing new ones being issued. In fact, I had been puzzled as to why certain men I had been researching had been given new numbers. As I understand it, they were serving under special, and shorter, terms of service. In order to manage this, they were given new numbers from a dedicated block. I do not know enough about the RAF as to whether people who re-enlisted were automatically given a new number, in the same way that a new member of a gym or library gets the next successive number from the list.

You do have the option of requesting both his post-1920 army service record, and his subsequent WW2 RAF airman's service record, to find out more. I would also recommend sending a letter to the MOD Medal Office to enquire as to his medal entitlement and RAF service number in WW2. In addition to WW2 medals, if he had served in Iraq during the time period 9 September 1920 to 26 September 1921, he may well have entitlement to a campaign medal. I get the impression that his Airman's service record gives no details whatsoever as to movements and postings for his first 12 month tour of duty?

Interesting to see the photos of him in Germany, and sat in an AFV, possibly used by the RAF Regiment for airfield defence and perimeter patrols?

[Keith_history_buff]

Looking to revisit his RAF service, so I have reproduced Peter's comments
 

9.9.20 to 26.9.21 Served with the RAF as an Aircraftman Class 2 (AC2)

7.9.23 Re - enlisted with the RAF. Served “T” Depot Squadron (AC2)

6.11.23 Transferred School of Technical Training, Manston

13.3.24 Reclassed as a Fabric Worker (his RAF trade rather than rank)

22.3.24 Transferred Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment, (then stationed at RAF Martlesham).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroplane_and_Armament_Experimental_Establishment

23.8.24 Promoted AC1 and (probably) reclassed as a Tailor (his RAF trade rather than rank).

1.1.25 Reclassed as a Labourer (his RAF trade rather than rank).

30.5.25 Admitted Central Hospital, Ipswich

3.6.25 Discharged from Central Hospital, Ipswich

26.09.26 Discharged after 3 years and 20 days service. Address is 253 Nacton Road, Ipswich

 

Quote

Squadron Leader Mclarens attempted round the world flight started from Calshot in the UK on the 24th March 1924 and ended with the plane crashed in Russia at the start of August 1924.
during the time Sidney was with the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment so possibly he was part of a support team

 

Whilst he was notionally based at Martlesham, he could well have been on detached duty elsewhere in 1924, hence the photos from Mesopotamia could date from this time period.

I do know that for the interwar period, electoral registers for London are a great way of pinning down whereabouts. What is the respective coverage like for Suffolk. Would he be appearing on the electoral register?

 

[dink999]

2 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

it is a shame that his army Military History Sheet is not showing, which would break out his time served in the UK & overseas from 1917 to 1920

 

One last image courtesy of find my past

 

 

[headgardener]

21 minutes ago, dink999 said:

 

One last image courtesy of find my past

 

 

 

So, that reads :

1917

23 Feb enlisted, Service in UK with QOYD & Training Reserve Battalion & then Royal Fusiliers

 

1918

5 Feb embarked for Middle East

1 Mar disembarked in Egypt, where he served through the last 7 months of Palestine campaign with 38th RF (Jewish Legion / 1st Judeans) 

 

1919

8 Mar embarked for UK

23 Mar disembarked in UK

11 May discharged

Edited 25 July , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

22 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I have a family member in the book, a WW1 fatality. His religion is incorrect, as is his rank. He was always a shiksa, and was baptised C of E, so was never of the Jewish faith, although having a partly Jewish sounding surname. (The nearest connection was friendship with a Jewish tank crewman similarly linked to the East End.) I have wondered just what the criteria were for compiling the list, and therefore consider it a dubious source, needing to be cross-referenced elsewhere.

Some idiot has "improved" my family member's profile on the jewsfww.uk website. According to the inputter, he enlisted on 13th August and was killed in action on September 1914. Who knew?

 

I had to laugh at this story! I understand that the book was compiled from unofficial sources, largely as a result of appeals to congregants of synagogues to submit names for inclusion, so it's about as accurate as any war memorial is ever likely to be. I also understand that there was a desire on the part of the Jewish 'community' to be seen to be every bit as patriotic as 'native' Brits (especially as so many Ashkenazi had Germanic names) which may have led some individuals to seek to include anyone who might be even only partly Jewish - whether practicing or not. The Jewish establishment in the UK was traditionally Sephardi (minor mobility and high status mercantile class) while many Jews from the east end at the outbreak of war were relatively newly arrived Eastern European Ashkenazis (unskilled or semi-skilled farm workers and labourers with very limited English language skills) who often organized their own synagogues privately according to their Eastern European country of origin, so it's easy to imagine that the system for collecting names and details would be rather haphazard. I imagine your relative 's name for forwarded by someone who knew him and assumed that he was `one of ours', and the passage of time has now caused it to become 'fact'.....