Can anyone help me understand WW1 Service Record

[ianuk]

Hi,

I am going through my late grandfathers paperwork and am trying to piece together his WW1 Air Force service history. I have attached some scans from his service record but do not understand them. Can anyone help me work out his regiment and rank timeline?

Any help appreciated.

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi 

 

The great thing about these records is the way they capture prior service. He never served in WW1 in the RAF, but served for two periods of engagement in the inter-war period.

If you can share his name, it could be helpful. Do you happen to know his regimental service number from when he served with the Royal Fusiliers from 23 Feb 1917 up to 11 May 1920? It seems highly likely that he would have an army medal index card.

 

Thanks
Keith

[PRC]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

I believe it looks like

18.8.14 to 23.9.14 Private 11197 Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.

Discharged as underage.

23.2.17 to 11.5.20. Served with the Royal Fusiliers, finishing as an Acting Corporal

9.9.20 to 26.9.21 Served with the RAF as an Aircraftman Class 2 (AC2)

7.9.23 Re - enlisted with the RAF. Served “T” Depot Squadron (AC2)

6.11.23 Transferred School of Technical Training, Manston

13.3.24 Reclassed as a Fabric Worker (his RAF trade rather than rank)

22.3.24 Transferred Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment, (then stationed at RAF Martlesham).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroplane_and_Armament_Experimental_Establishment

23.8.24 Promoted AC1 and (probably) reclassed as a Tailor (his RAF trade rather than rank).

1.1.25 Reclassed as a Labourer (his RAF trade rather than rank).

30.5.25 Admitted Central Hospital, Ipswich

3.6.25 Discharged

 

So as Keith says, no Great War service with the RAF. And I second that if you can share his name then it may be possible to tell you more about his service with the KOYLI and the Royal Fusiliers.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 24 July , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[ianuk]

My grandfather's name was Sydney Cyril Sam Franklin. I think his Service Number was 343339. His photo albums contains photos of biplanes in a desrt around the time of WW1 and photos of him at Altona, Hamburg around the time of the end of WW2.

[Keith_history_buff]

Hmm. What is peculiar is that there is a medal index card for him. In most instances, the card contains a person's entitlement. and can be cross-referenced to the medal rolls. In other instances, the card documents a query, a rejection, or even reissue of replacement Boer War medals in the interwar period.

The card was created on 10 November 1920, enquiring after medals. It looks like he is wearing the BWM & VM ribbons in the first picture.There is no medal roll reference on the card, though. The card records that he served in the 2nd Dragoon Guards as well as the Royal Fusiliers. I will send you a private message later.

His RAF service number is one of a batch that were issued between September 1919 and June 1925.

[PRC]

It appears to get more complicated!

 

FindMyPast has an enlistment for him in the Tank Corps on the 18th August 1922. He was discharged on the 3rd November 1922 at Edinburgh  - there is a note in red that he failed to disclose previous service on re-enlistment.

 

The Former Service notes column has this:-

 

 

So different service number with the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, (1625 vs 11197) and a different length of service - (1 year 30 days versus 1 month), and now we have him serving postwar for 113 days with the West Yorkshire Regiment.  The number bloc allocated to the West Yorkshire Regiment in 1920 ran from 4523001 to 4601000.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

Presumably 343339 relates to his period of service with the RAF in 1920/21. Length of service seems about right.

Someone has written in pencil in the final column K.D.G., so possibly his time in the Tank Corps was actually with the Kings Dragoon Guards.

His next of kin was his mother of 7 Samuel Street, Leeds, he enlisted at Durham, and his address on discharge was 24 Kerbela Street, Bethnal Green Road, London.

 

Interestingly there is a Medal Index Card for a 'Sidney' C. Franklin, (I think it's Sidney Charles but don't have a paid subscription to Ancestry to check the service medal rolls). He was first Private 19133 Wiltshire Regiment, and landed in the Mesopotamia Theatre of War on the 4th November 1915. At some point he became Private GS/69595, Royal Fusiliers. There do not appear to be any surviving service papers.

 

If he stayed in the Army post war and served in the RAF in WW2 then some of the missing paperwork may be held at the Ministry of Defence, bundled in with his later service files. You can apply for his paperwork directly to them. https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

I believe as he would be over 100 you don't need to prove he has died, and from what I've seem written on the forum, despite what it says on the website the emphasis on next of kin is widely interpreted - but don't shoot me, I have no direct experience.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited 24 July , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[Keith_history_buff]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

If he stayed in the Army post war and served in the RAF in WW2 then some of the missing paperwork may be held at the Ministry of Defence, bundled in with his later service files. You can apply for his paperwork directly to them. https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

I believe as he would be over 100 you don't need to prove he has died, and from what I've seem written on the forum, despite what it says on the website the emphasis on next of kin is widely interpreted - but don't shoot me, I have no direct experience.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Excellent detective work on the part of Peter.

A forum pal made a FoI request in 2014, to ask for a list of men born prior to 1901 who have served with the army since 1920 and have service records that are in the custody of the MOD. These files can be accessed free of charge via a link, or you can access the dataset if you are an Ancestry subscriber. His service record is confirmed as being with the MOD. Their unique identifier for 4528455 S FRANKLIN is ADT000231913

 

Genealogically, it is interesting to see that although a native of Leeds, he married in Q2 1927 in Ipswich, and died there in Q1 1973. Whilst there is some rigmarole about releasing information on those who died less than 25 years ago or were born less than 116 years ago when applying for service records, this does not apply if you are family and next of kin.

I am not sure how long it will currently take for a request to be processed, but expect a lead time of several months.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

25 minutes ago, PRC said:

Interestingly there is a Medal Index Card for a 'Sidney' C. Franklin, (I think it's Sidney Charles but don't have a paid subscription to Ancestry to check the service medal rolls). He was first Private 19133 Wiltshire Regiment, and landed in the Mesopotamia Theatre of War on the 4th November 1915. At some point he became Private GS/69595, Royal Fusiliers. There do not appaer to be any surviving service papers.

BWM & VM medal roll entry of the other Franklin courtesy of Ancestry
 

[PRC]

Thanks for checking Keith. I was just including him for completeness as it appeared to be the only potential Royal Fusiliers match who qualified for service medals and so worthy of further investigation.  Working assumption therefore has to be that Sydneys' time in the Great War was spent on the home front. Any time in the desert may therefore relate to his first spell in the RAF, 1920/21. Maybe some mileage in the OP putting up pictures of said aircraft as that may help date when the pictures might have been taken.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[headgardener]

Interesting story and good detective work. 

Interesting to note that the man in the first image appears to be wearing what looks like another medal ribbon ahead of what appears to be the BW&VM ribbons - logic would dictate that it's likely to be a15 star!

[Keith_history_buff]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

18.8.14 to 23.9.14 Private 11197 Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.

Discharged as underage.

23.2.17 to 11.5.20. Served with the Royal Fusiliers, finishing as an Acting Corporal

9.9.20 to 26.9.21 Served with the RAF as an Aircraftman Class 2 (AC2)

 

18 Aug 1922 to 3 Nov 1922 Served in RTR/KDG
113 days in West Yorkshire Regiment

 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

7.9.23 Re - enlisted with the RAF. Served “T” Depot Squadron (AC2)

6.11.23 Transferred School of Technical Training, Manston

13.3.24 Reclassed as a Fabric Worker (his RAF trade rather than rank)

22.3.24 Transferred Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment, (then stationed at RAF Martlesham).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroplane_and_Armament_Experimental_Establishment

23.8.24 Promoted AC1 and (probably) reclassed as a Tailor (his RAF trade rather than rank).

1.1.25 Reclassed as a Labourer (his RAF trade rather than rank).

30.5.25 Admitted Central Hospital, Ipswich

3.6.25 Discharged

There's more questions than answers at the present moment, so applying for his service record would be informative.

[headgardener]

6 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

 

There's more questions than answers at the present moment, so applying for his service record would be informative.

 

Indeed! 

Maybe Ian could post an uncropped image of the 2nd photo in which it looks like he's wearing a WW2-era battledress top? Assuming the 2 pics are of the same man (it certainly looks like they are) it would be interesting to see whether he has any ribbons on his chest in the 2nd photo.

[Keith_history_buff]

I have found a Sid Franklin who is on the Leeds Absent Voters List. I don't think this is "our man" born in 1900, as you had to be 21 years or older to be on the list. It appears that he's Jewish, too.
Image courtesy of Ancestry
 

[dink999]

Looking at his RAF papers on ancestry I notice that under 10. Description on entry it notes a scar, GSW left buttock. Also at 9. His next of kin is his mother who lives in Australia.

 

Image courtesy of ancestry.co.uk

[ianuk]

@PRC: Couple of my grandfather's desert photos attached
@headgardener: Yes; the 2 photos are both of my grandfather.
@Keith-jistory-buff: I can confirm that my grandfather was a Jew born in Leeds and that he lived, and died, here in Ipswich after he married. I have no recollection of him using the middle name Charles.

Anecdotes I remember from my grandfather:

He spent some time guarding a Royal Palace in the UK at some point.
He was a Rear Gunner at some point.
He was hit in the back of the head by a tail-plane of a plane maneuvering on a runway at some point and had to spend a short time in hospital because of this injury.
He trained pilots how to use parachutes at some point.
He spent time working in the Armed Forces Recruitment Office here in Ipswich.

[ianuk]

@dink999: Yes, that's him. His mother (and all his siblings over the years) all emigrated to Australia leaving only Sydney (and his grandmother) here in England.

[Keith_history_buff]

Samuel Street (Source: RTR record via FMP) and

http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?id=200363_91457767

Metz Place (Source: Leeds Archives, Absent Voter list entry for Sid Franklin J/1246)

http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?id=200364_85079593

 

were both in the Little London district of Leeds, so it would appear.

 

[headgardener]

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Samuel Street (Source: RTR record via FMP) and

http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?id=200363_91457767

Metz Place (Source: Leeds Archives, Absent Voter list entry for Sid Franklin J/1246)

http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?id=200364_85079593

 

were both in the Little London district of Leeds, so it would appear.

 

 

Is it's him, then that's a Judean Battalion number. That, in turn, would imply overseas service in Palestine. 

I wonder what the British Jewry Book of Honour has on him? 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, ianuk said:

 

Squadron Leader Mclarens attempted round the world flight started from Calshot in the UK on the 24th March 1924 and ended with the plane crashed in Russia at the start of August 1924, after several partial rebuilds along the way and a complete replacement. The route took them from Cairo to India at one point - it's not clear whether this was via Mesopotamia \ Iraq but as there was still an element of anti-British feeling since the 1920 revolt in that location they may have wanted to avoid it. The Vickers Vulture used at the start, as far as I can see was coded G-EBHO, so the picture shown must have been taken between Calshot and its complete write off in Burma.

See: https://nfknowledge.org/contributions/around-the-world-flight-attempt-in-1924/#map=10/-1.31/NaN/0/24:0:0.6|39:1:1|40:1:1

 

This was during the time Sidney was with the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment so possibly he was part of a support team to evaluate the craft. The above website has a Pathe Newsreel of the departure so may be worth a look.

 

The Sopwith Snipe only came into use operationally at the very end of the war and by the armistice only three Squadron had been kitted out with the new aircraft. Despite performance mis-givings by the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment (!), it was then designated the standard single-seat air-craft of the RAF, but by 1926 had been retired.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopwith_Snipe

 

Possible crashes

4.1.24 Snipe H4906?, 1 Sqn, Hinaidi

Crashed, believed pilot fainted in the air, Hinaidi, Iraq

Flt Lt John Mecredy McAlery (31) killed

 

17.3.24 Bristol Fighter D8099, 45 Sqn, Hinaidi

Stalled and spun, Hinaidi, Iraq

Plt Off Walter Harry Ryder (23) killed

LAC Kenneth Turner (24) killed

 

21.7.24 Snipe E7638, 1 Sqn, Hinaidi

Stalled and crashed, Kirkuk, Iraq

Fg Off Myles Birket Foster Watson (22) killed

 

12.11.24 Snipe F2499, 1 Sqn, Hinaidi

Spun into ground, Hinaidi, Iraq

Fg Off Ellis Reid (22) killed

Lt William Henry Edwin Cotter injured

 

18.4.25 Bristol Fighter F4961, 6 Sqn, Mosul

Hit by rifle fire on bombing mission, crashed and burnt, Mirkhan, Sinjar, Iraq

Fg Off Rupert William Pontifex (23) killed

AC2 Edward Barber (22) killed

 

4.5.25 Bristol Fighter, 6 Sqn, Mosul

Flying accident, Kani Utman, Iraq

Lt John Ellerthorpe Griffith (28) killed (Iraq Levies)

Flt Lt Walter Arthur Bouchier Savile injured (pilot)

http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/Accf1930.htm

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 24 July , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

3 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I don't think this is "our man" born in 1900, as you had to be 21 years or older to be on the list. It appears that he's Jewish, too.

The voting age for men was 21 for the 1918 General Election, but servicemen were allowed to vote if they were 19.

I'm not sure if the AVL tagged 'nearly 19 year old soldiers' though.

Have we established his exact DOB?

 

The General Election was held on December 14th 1918 but the AVL would have been compiled in Spring 1918.

(Assuming it's the Spring 1918 list that has been consulted. There were about 5 or 6 in some areas running up to 1921.

[Keith_history_buff]

4 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Is it's him, then that's a Judean Battalion number. That, in turn, would imply overseas service in Palestine. 

I wonder what the British Jewry Book of Honour has on him? 

I have a family member in the book, a WW1 fatality. His religion is incorrect, as is his rank. He was always a shiksa, and was baptised C of E, so was never of the Jewish faith, although having a partly Jewish sounding surname. (The nearest connection was friendship with a Jewish tank crewman similarly linked to the East End.) I have wondered just what the criteria were for compiling the list, and therefore consider it a dubious source, needing to be cross-referenced elsewhere.

Some idiot has "improved" my family member's profile on the jewsfww.uk website. According to the inputter, he enlisted on 13th August and was killed in action on September 1914. Who knew?

[dink999]

30 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Is it's him, then that's a Judean Battalion number. That, in turn, would imply overseas service in Palestine. 

I wonder what the British Jewry Book of Honour has on him? 

 

His J/1246 no. Shows up on his find my past RAF records

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Well done, what a scoop!

[headgardener]

1 hour ago, dink999 said:

 

His J/1246 no. Shows up on his find my past RAF records

 

 

 

That's it! 38th Royal Fusiliers - aka the Jewish Legion, aka the 1st Judeans. He was an early reinforcement for the battalion which was formed in August 1917. They were the first all-Jewish battalion in British army, and were followed by a further 4. Plenty about them on line, they were recruited on the basis that they were fighting in Palestine to help create a Jewish state. So he WAS entitled to BW&VM, and that's presumably how he got injured ("GSW buttock"). 

[Keith_history_buff]

2nd DG was a red herring, then, He started his training in a Yeomanry unit, and was thereafter transferred to the 87th TRB, who were stationed at Catterick at that time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen%27s_Own_Yorkshire_Dragoons#2/1st_Queen's_Own_Yorkshire_Dragoons