Studio photos WW1 loaned uniform

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

This seems to go hand in hand with another frequently asked question; " How come Uncle Fred/Joe was born in London, yet served in an Irish/Welsh/Scottish Regiment".

 From researching (with huge amounts of help from some very knowledgeable folk on this very forum) my collection of 3000+ photo postcards, hundreds of medals and items of personal kit, I have several examples of men joining local units, only to be transferred far from "home". 

 Surviving service papers show enlistment to infantry regiments, then a transfer within weeks to Royal Engineers or Army Service Corps, where pre-war skills were better utilized, or transfers the opposite way, from Corps and service units, to infantry regiments with manpower shortages due to casualties.

 Recruits reaching France wearing a nice crisp uniform of their West Country regiment (photos duly sent home for mum, nan,and the aunts) could find themselves heading north wearing an Irish harp within days!

I certainly don't dispute this - nor I think do others in this thread

I suspect that being in the 'wrong uniform' may be apparent / an illusion as elsewhere described rather than real in most cases [unless a deliberate situation as elsewhere offered up in other threads on GWF - one recent one the RGA and apparently likely involving British & French uniform 'swaps immediately comes to mind] - but a worthy question for discussion i think.

My example, a Mancunian, ended up with other recruits headed for Welsh units and stayed with the SWB throughout / thereafter in UK, France, Belgium Germany & UK - at least that bit was quite simple when researching him!

:-) M

[GWF1967]

2 minutes ago, dravin said:

 

Anyone who has spent some time researching would be fully aware of the movement of soldiers regt to regt as the armys wishes dictated, often more than once and the reason why so many served in regts they had no obvious affiliation or connection to 

 

Had the recruit been posted to France in one regt and transferred to another it would surely be recorded on his medal index card, and medal rolls, as I have seen on numerous occasions 

 

The instances I have mentioned are studio photos taken in England yet the man served in another regt

Sorry, perhaps my post wasn't clear, but I did attempt to separate men transferred within the UK,  from men later transferred, after crossing the channel.

 I have examples of men joining Territorial units, pre-war, and after war was declared, then seeking to enlist to another unit to speed overseas posting, men joining an infantry regiment, then being transferred to the R.E., joining a training reserve battalion of a regiment, being subsequently transferred sideways through one or more regiments, before seeing overseas service with a completely different regiment altogether.

 Some men are named and numbered on postcards, yet impossible to place with a particular regiment, were it not for a crossed out number on a single page of surviving service record. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thank you for this - I am somewhat / even more enlightened

 

The young soldier in 1917/18 had a short stick under his arm [under training and SWB cap-badged] for his formal photo [at what a believe was taken at Kinmel Park - or at least during training at Kinmel Park - as have seen other photos with the same staging/background]

The then older soldier in 1919 has a longer cane, sort of pace stick length [also SWB cap-badged and a Serjeant] for his informal one elsewhere off camp in the UK.

You seem to have dismissed a miscomprehension I had apparently erroneously long held about his early photo..

 

Quick further questions please - Would a young soldier in training in UK [or even a trained soldier] have been permanently issued with a swagger stick?

Or in UK would such stick / cane have been temporarily signed out, back into stores and out again etc. according to short-term needs?

Otherwise, if not so 'issued', then it surely would most likely have been a briefly used photographer's 'prop' in 1917/18 and could be called as such.

???

 

I feel sure sticks / canes would have been taken on AS - so if OS I might feel such 'props' would be quite likely to be temporarily [even if not often] provided like so many other types of props used for such photos and thus also called as such - level of use in UK / OS obviously open to question / more research i guess.

:-) M

 

1.  The only 'stick' issued at public expense was a 'pace stick', which was issued to each army sub unit on a set scale as part of camp equippage for the purpose of laying out (pacing) the distance between tentage, horse lines, and guns.  It was from these that Foot Guards adopted their carriage for encouraging a consistent marching pace.

 

2.  Provost Sergeants and Sergeants in general invariably carried 'parade canes', which were longer items and purchased individually so that considerable variation is sometimes seen even within the same unit.

 

3.  All rank and file were required to carry Swagger Sticks/Canes when walking out.  At home these were usually made of Ash, but in tropical stations they were often formed from a type of cane called Whangee.  All less the whangee canes tended to have pewter or brass knobs inscribed with individual regimental designs.  These changed over the years and were a source of regimental pride.

 

4.  The non publicly funded (i.e. not issued by the war office) canes mentioned above were funded using the units canteen profits, which subsidised them, but soldiers were still required to make a cash contribution in order that they looked after them.  They were inspected at kit checks and if missing the soldier was required to get another.  Soldiers were inspected at the guard room when walking-out and their turnout and canes, etc. checked at the same time as they were recorded in the 'walking out book' (this book was so that any failure to return was noticed as soon as possible after tattoo).  They could not walk out if they were incorrectly dressed.

 

5.  Those in mounted duty units were required to walk out with a riding whip. These items were publicly issued on a scale per horse and rider and one sometimes sees a mounted duty soldier walking-out with an issued whip (longer than a swagger stick and with a leather loop at the end).  However, to inculcate unit pride these too were obtainable, and encouraged, with regimentally inscribed knobs. Again they were funded internally to the unit with the soldiers making a contribution.

 

6.  The most common method of obtaining the cash contribution from the soldier was via company, squadron, battery 'stoppages' .  This meant that on the weekly pay parade the soldier would receive his pay less various amounts deducted at source.  These amounts included purchase contributions for swagger sticks, etc. as well as barracks damages and monies owed to barracks vendors.  

 

7.  In stations overseas such as India they were exceedingly cheap and soldiers were often even able to afford nickel and silver plate ended versions.

 

 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

one recent one the RGA and apparently likely involving British & French uniform 'swaps immediately comes to mind] - but a worthy question for discussion i think.

 

:-) M

I saw the postcard you mention, and another posted within hours; both drew comments regarding the scarcity of such images. 

[Matlock1418]

Just now, GWF1967 said:

I saw the postcard you mention, and another posted within hours; both drew comments regarding the scarcity of such images. 

Yes indeed.

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, dravin said:

 

The instances I have mentioned are studio photos taken in England yet the man served in another regt

 

You really need to read about Reserve Battalions, the subsequent Training Reserve, and the Graduated and Young Soldier Battalions after that.  All were types of training unit in the UK.

 

It was very common for a young recruit to join a Res Bn and be issued their cap badge.  His unit was then converted to TR and he handed his cap badge in and wore a button in his headdress.  He was then sent to a Grad or YS battalion and changed his cap badge again.  In some cases men with special skills from prewar were then weeded out to a service support corps.  In such cases he has already worn 3-cap badges, not left the UK, and very likely to have his record of movement destroyed in WW2.  In other cases the soldier arrived after the first three stages I mentioned in an IBD in France and was sent to yet another regiment, but this time it would appear on his medal roll and index card.  If wounded he might (and often did) move to another regiment upon return to F&F.  These latter changes would be recorded on MICs, but the earlier ones would not.  It has been possible to piece together some men's movements by comparing their regimental numbers with those of men whose records did survive the WW2 bombing and there are numerous cases where men had as many as 5 different cap badges during their Army service.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

31 minutes ago, dravin said:

 

The instances I have mentioned are studio photos taken in England yet the man served in another regt

 

Apologies if I’m repeating something that has already been mentioned by someone else on this thread, but the drawback with researching men through the MIC’s is that they almost invariably list only the regiments in which someone served overseas in. The exceptions to this rule usually relate to the issue of the SWB, in which case the MIC may list a home service unit that the man was serving with when he was discharged, such as the RDC.

 

So, it’s quite common to find men who definitely served overseas in, say, the Royal Fusiliers yet find a UK photo of them in the uniform of a HS unit (say, the ASC). In which instance the MIC will only list R Fus. Unless you have access to a service record you can rarely ever know the full list of regiments that a man served with. I must have about 4,000 postcards of ww1 soldiers, and probably about 1,000 can’t be definitively linked to an MIC, but that doesn’t mean they were ‘dressing up’, just that they didn’t serve overseas or served overseas with another regiment which doesn’t appeal on their MIC.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by headgardener

[TullochArd]

20 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

I suspect that regulation was not rigorously enforced, I have seen quite a few examples in the postcards topic of women presumably wearing the uniform of a brother, husband or boyfriend.

 

....as evidenced by my Gt. Aunt Agnes .....

 

Edited 11 July , 2020 by TullochArd
Gt. Aunt not Aunt

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

1.  The only 'stick' issued at public expense was a 'pace stick', .... [rest of very interesting post abbreviated here for brevity]

Thanks again - a full answer, as always

 

I never suggested he had a pace stick - just about that length = however it is clear we would both describe the longer as a cane  - a 'parade cane' to use your your / the military term [have learnt something new - everyday a school day on GWF!]

 

Apologies if I seem / am being thick - always open to further education:

Are you saying the young soldier would have had to purchase his own walking-out stick even in training? = For his photo? [Sorry - I still can't get it out of my mind that a photographer's prop isn't a possibility, or it's a rather fine line, under such circumstances]

= And the older sergeant likewise his cane later? [that does probably seem more likely]

 

Or might there be a sort of official, or even unofficial, unit pool of sticks / canes [outside of the official stores / public expense system] that a soldier could borrow / rent [for a contribution] for photos and/or walking-out? 

I can see a potential trade in that, perhaps run by older NCOs / WOs perhaps - permitted by KR? 

Or was that you were referring to when you mentioned the canteen?  [I actually interpreted your paragraph 4 to indicate that purchase was necessary - but would be at a subsidised rate]

 

If only 'rented' for a photo I can easily see the perceived interpretation as being considered, certainly by the uninformed likes of me, as a photographer's 'prop' [even if the photographer hadn't provided it] - especially if photo was taken on camp and not when walking-out.

Are you able to offer a description of such on-camp photo processes? [if they took place back then]

I currently think a commercial photographer would have had some kind of contact / understanding with the camp back then to take such photos on camp - privately funded by the soldiers - open to further enlightenment!  And / or soldiers would have to walk-out to his local studio [perhaps however improvised that such facilities might be - perhaps under less stringent military scrutiny and perhaps more prone to foibles and mistakes] ??? 

[As I believe both are the current, 2020, options for portraits (as opposed to ID or official & promo photos)]

 

I guess if such a stick(s) & cane(s) were a personal asset(s) then a potentially likely substantial personal trade in them amongst soldiers as they moved UK/France/UK/on being demobbed perhaps, etc

 [As I believe is the current, 2020, situation for personally-purchased uniform and kit and its 'recycling' - Plus ca change!]

Shame my soldier's stick & cane are not to be found / in my possession now - money may perhaps have long ago changed hands instead! 

[If I had them it wouldn't do now - and nobody is now going to convince me they have them for sale to me either!!!]

;-) M

Edited 10 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
small addit

[kenf48]

From 'The Last Fighting Tommy' Harry Patch with Richard van Emden' (Henry John Patch Pte 29295 7/DCLI)

 

"around October 1916...five of us from the village went down from Bath to Tolland Barracks.  Here we were roughly kitted out and our civilian clothes sent home."

(So they were 'roughly kitted out' in the uniform of the Somerset Light Infantry.) "Then it was off to Exmouth (3rd Bn) where we did our basic training."  It is clear therefore they would have had no need to 'borrow' a uniform.

 

He goes on, "In early 1917 we went to Sutton Veney near Warminster where I joined the 33rd Training Reserve Battalion.  At this point we weren't attached to any regiment, although before we joined the 33rd I wore several different regimental cap badges, the Warwickshire Regiment being one, so I must have been shifted around."

 

He notes he was posted to the 7th DCLI in France ('soon after arrival we were separated and drafted to various regiments...there was no choice in the matter I went into the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry').  His battalion was in the same brigade as the 7th Somerset Light Infantry which had 'of course some lads from Coombe Down' (his home village).

 

There is a twenty first century photograph of him proudly wearing the cap badge of the DCLI above his medals.  Unfortunately there is no studio photograph extant before he left for France.  Had he done so, and as the identifying feature in such photographs is the cap badge, if his experience is anything to go by it could have been any one of half a dozen or more regiments.  None of which are shown on the Medal Roll.

 

I stand to be corrected but I doubt that any of his cohort or any other soldier was allowed to 'walk out' for photographs until after a few weeks basic training.  Had he done so the photograph would probably show he was in the Somerset Light Infantry.

 

 

[Matlock1418]

47 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

....as evidenced by my Aunt Agnes .....

Cor, what a beauty!

Now confused - stick under right or left arm?  [Or should that be: stick under left or right arm?]

:-) M

Edited 10 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
;-)

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks again - a full answer, as always

 

I never suggested he had a pace stick - just about that length = however it is clear we would both describe the longer as a cane  - a 'parade cane' to use your your / the military term [have learnt something new - everyday a school day on GWF!]

 

Apologies if I seem / am being thick - always open to further education:

Are you saying the young soldier would have had to purchase his own walking-out stick even in training? = For his photo? [Sorry - I still can't get it out of my mind that a photographer's prop isn't a possibility, or it's a rather fine line, under such circumstances]

= And the older sergeant likewise his cane later? [that does probably seem more likely]

 

Or might there be a sort of official, or even unofficial, unit pool of sticks / canes [outside of the official stores / public expense system] that a soldier could borrow / rent [for a contribution] for photos and/or walking-out? 

I can see a potential trade in that, perhaps run by older NCOs / WOs perhaps - permitted by KR? 

Or was that you were referring to when you mentioned the canteen?  [I actually interpreted your paragraph 4 to indicate that purchase was necessary - but would be at a subsidised rate]

 

If only 'rented' for a photo I can easily see the perceived interpretation as being considered, certainly by the uninformed likes of me, as a photographer's 'prop' [even if the photographer hadn't provided it] - especially if photo was taken on camp and not when walking-out.

Are you able to offer a description of such on-camp photo processes? [if they took place back then]

I currently think a commercial photographer would have had some kind of contact / understanding with the camp back then to take such photos on camp - privately funded by the soldiers - open to further enlightenment!  And / or soldiers would have to walk-out to his local studio [perhaps however improvised that might be] ??? 

[As I believe both are the current, 2020, options for portraits (as opposed to ID or official promo photos)]

 

I guess if such a stick(s) & cane(s) were a personal asset(s) then a potentially likely substantial personal trade in them amongst soldiers as they moved UK/France/UK/on being demobbed perhaps, etc

 [As I believe is the current, 2020, situation for personally-purchased uniform and kit and its 'recycling' - Plus ca change!]

Shame my soldier's stick & cane are not to be found / in my possession now - money may perhaps have long ago changed hands instead! 

[If I had them it wouldn't do now - and nobody is now going to convince me they have them for sale to me either!!!]

;-) M

 

Bloody hell!  What part of my post did you not understand?  No, no, no, there was no pool of swagger canes.  Yes, a soldier had to get one when he enlisted at some point during his basic training (usually at the point that he passed a simple parade that tested his basic military abilities in marching and the most rudimentary knowledge about ranks around him and his regiment's history - even war raised volunteers were encouraged to take pride in history).  Yes, he purchased it himself (that is not at all unusual, British soldiers still have to buy their own stable belts, and, e.g. I was obliged ALSO to buy a full belt, bayonet frog and rifle sling - it's something that's been in British Army culture since the 17th Century).  Yes it was subsidised via the canteen fund so that he paid only a nominal fee, but enough for him to feel a sense of possession.  

 

The soldier would have had no need of one in France and they were usually left in store under battalion arrangements. 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Bloody hell!  What part of my post did you not understand?  No, no, no, there was no pool of swagger canes.  Yes, a soldier had to get one when he enlisted at some point during his basic training.  Yes, he purchased it himself (that is not at all unusual soldiers still have to buy their own stable belts, and I was obliged ALSO to buy a full belt, bayonet frog and rifle sling - it's been in British Army culture since the 17th Century).  Yes it was subsidised via the canteen fund so that he paid only a nominal fee, but enough for him to feel a sense of possession.  

Sorry to have been so thick!

More of your Colour Service seems to be showing through in your reply, less your Officer's!

Not the answers to all my questions though.

As I also recognised - I know - Plus ca change!

I'm backing off for today as you seem rather grumpy [though I know you are not our honourable GWF pal] - tetchy perhaps.

Hope you get well soon.

;-) M

 

BTW - good photos of earlier post with nice sticks - which seem to have now come up to view :-)

 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
btw

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Sorry to have been so thick!

More of your Colour Service seems to be showing through in your reply, less your Officer's!

Not the answers to all my questions though.

As I also recognised - I know - Plus ca change!

I'm backing off for today as you seem rather grumpy [though I know you are not our honourable GWF pal] - tetchy perhaps.

Hope you get well soon.

;-) M

 

 

You would try the patience of a saint, despite the nice chap that I'm sure you must be.  I'm glad that I did not have to teach you in basic training....

 

Try and understand that the swagger sticks were encouarged as a personal piece of kit, not something that sat in a store, but something that he had to keep in good order and polish the metal top and wax the wood, as well as memorise the battle honours often inscribed upon it. 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

26 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

Are you saying the young soldier would have had to purchase his own walking-out stick even in training? 

 

 

 

 

;-) M

Yes.

Swagger stick belonging to Percy Charles Preston. Enlisted as Pte. 10072, 2/6th  T.F.  Battalion, Lancs. Fusiliers.  (Home Service). 

 Transferred to 15th Service Battalion (1st Salford Pals), so he volunteered for overseas service.  France. 22/11/1915.   Transferred to the Labour Corps. May - August 1918. 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by GWF1967

[Matlock1418]

Just now, GWF1967 said:

Swagger stick belonging to Percy Charles Preston. Enlisted as Pte. 10072, 2/6th Battalion, Lancs. Fusiliers (Home Service). 

Nice!

:-) M

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

You would try the patience of a saint, despite the nice chap that I'm sure you must be.  I'm glad that I did not have to teach you in basic training...

I hope so.  Probably likewise!

Just trying to learn

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Nice!

:-) M

I hope so.  Probably likewise!

Just trying to learn

:-) M

 

It's always good to learn and there's no such thing as a silly question - I really believe that.  Where it gets difficult is when the same question is asked again in short order, which rather suggests that not enough care has been taken in reading and inwardly digesting (the important bit) the first answer.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

which rather suggests that not enough care has been taken in reading and inwardly digesting (the important bit) the first answer.

I'm learning more and more about recruit training from you.

Read several times - but clarification was sought.

Not least when it is not as simple as having a photo have walked-out in correct dress [that I could understand] - but what about on camp for a photo?

Before you suggest I haven't got it by now - I do now understand a recruit would have to have purchased his own stick [and probably pretty early on in training it would likely seem!]

Shame he never kept it / passed it on. :-(

:-) M

 

P.S. Go on ... you know you want to  ... stick under left or right arm?

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I'm learning more and more about recruit training from you.

Read several times - but clarification was sought.

Not least when it is not as simple as having a photo have walked-out in correct dress [that I could understand] - but what about on camp for a photo?

Before you suggest I haven't got it by now - I do now understand a recruit would have to have purchased his own stick [and probably pretty early on in training it would likely seem!]

Shame he never kept it / passed it on. :-(

:-) M

 

P.S. Go on ... you know you want to  ... stick under left or right arm?

 

It had by the time of WW1 become fairly standard for an individual portrait photo to show the soldier with his swagger stick in his hand, whether in barracks, or not  He took it along with him.  It is more rare though to see a group of soldiers sitting for a formal photo in barracks holding their sticks.  Nevertheless, one very occasionally sees them.

 

Which arm the stick was carried in depended upon the regulation for saluting.  Before the Boer War soldiers saluted a passing officer with the hand nearest to the officer and so the stick was, before the upwards movement with the saluting hand, passed to under the off-arm.  Before WW1 began saluting was standardised to be with the right hand regardless, and in those circumstances the cane, which was normally in the right hand, was swapped smartly to under the left arm in the moment before bringing up the right hand to salute.  This is minutiae though so I'm surprised that you should be interested.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It had by the time of WW1 become fairly standard for an individual portrait photo to show the soldier with his swagger stick in his hand, whether in barracks, or not  He took it along with him.  It is more rare though to see a group of soldiers sitting for a formal photo in barracks holding their sticks.  Nevertheless, one very occasionally sees them.

Thank you - learning all the time!

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Which arm the stick was carried in depended upon the regulation for saluting.  Before the Boer War soldiers saluted a passing officer with the hand nearest to the officer and so the stick was, before the upwards movement with the saluting hand, passed to under the off-arm.

Did know about the hand for saluting but I did not know the first and last parts.

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Before WW1 began saluting was standardised to be with the right hand

That I did also happen to know Edit: now more accurately known it appears, and have learnt more, from further posts below as to date change

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

the cane, which was normally in the right hand, was swapped smartly to under the left arm in the moment before bringing up the right hand to salute

That I likewise didn't know - I'll confess I thought it was carried in the left hand and moved to the left armpit or actually carried under the left arm

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

This is minutiae though so I'm surprised that you should be interested.

I am interested, and learning more and more.

I've never carried a stick or had to salute when carrying one [or had a photo taken with one either]

My soldier in training had his stick under his left arm - Phew! - glad he seems to have got this right correct (or thereabout so it would seem) [I asked because Aunt Agnes had it under her right arm!]

Photographers can often let things go, or ask things of their unwary / unknowledgeable subject which can end up embarrassing for both parties [especially in military matters for a military subject!] - even today, especially if not under other knowledgeable military scrutiny.

You see it all the time past and present - and especially if a lack of knowledgeable and firm instruction provided

Similarly I very, very vaguely recall, from partially seeing & over-hearing a very long time ago, colour sergeants [not me!] getting instruction on a pace stick - both in use and carriage etc. - so I do know there was / is a correct military way to do such stuff - just not what it was / is.

The Army - it's a 'foreign land' for many, and often very distant for others.

Many thanks,

:-) M

Edited 11 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
edit

[themonsstar]

Remember when I did my senior drill instructor course being measured up for my pace stick (racing snake) rosewood, and taking part in in a pace stick competition. I can also remember having a black cane with the Regimental Crest on it when I did my stint as the Provost Sergeant at one time.

Next 

[themonsstar]

[themonsstar]

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, themonsstar said:

Remember when I did my senior drill instructor course being measured up for my pace stick (racing snake) rosewood, and taking part in in a pace stick competition. I can also remember having a black cane with the Regimental Crest on it when I did my stint as the Provost Sergeant at one time.

I hope a happy time [no euphemism intended, though I do recognise you probably periodically had your challenges]

Great photos - so many variations of all sorts of sticks, canes and styles of presentation etc. - one wonders how much carriage/presentation was at the photographer's direction [and perhaps the depicted military correctness ?? - back to Frogsmile and/or others!]

:-) M

Edited 10 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
addit

[themonsstar]

I join up 1982-2006.

 

I have a couple of swagger sticks this is the only one I could put my hands on for the moment.