Studio photos WW1 loaned uniform

[dravin]

Quite often a photo will be posted of a man in a regiments uniform when its known he didn't serve in that particular regiment

(we all know men were moved to different regts at times but that doesn't answer all these occasions)

 

Its been said on a few occasions that perhaps the studio lent the man a uniform as he wanted a photo in uniform but he hadn't been issued one as yet

 

I hadn't given it to much thought but it was mentioned that Kings regs forbade the wearing of uniform unless issued to the man

 

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Gardenerbill]

I suspect that regulation was not rigorously enforced, I have seen quite a few examples in the postcards topic of women presumably wearing the uniform of a brother, husband or boyfriend.

[dravin]

13 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

I suspect that regulation was not rigorously enforced, I have seen quite a few examples in the postcards topic of women presumably wearing the uniform of a brother, husband or boyfriend.

 

a very fair point

[FROGSMILE]

I agree that it’s fairly common to see womenfolk in their male’s uniform, and had been since Victorian times, where it was often practised by European Royalty. However, the idea that lots of men hired uniform to be photographed because there was a shortage is I think spurious and without any real foundation.

[dravin]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I agree that it’s fairly common to see womenfolk in their male’s uniform, and had been since Victorian times, where it was often practised by European Royalty. However, the idea that lots of men hired uniform to be photographed because there was a shortage is I think spurious and without any real foundation.

 

Not so much a shortage but its often said men wanted a photo in uniform before going off to join a regiment

 

Its hard to explain the number that are photographed in a uniform of a regt they do not belong to

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, dravin said:

 

Not so much a shortage but its often said men wanted a photo in uniform before going off to join a regiment

 

Its hard to explain the number that are photographed in a uniform of a regt they do not belong to

As, I’ve said, based on collecting photos for a very long time now (albeit mostly digitally in recent years) I believe that it was not at all a widespread practice. It fits in the same bracket as the equally spurious idea that soldier’s swagger sticks were photographers props!

 

Where photos appear of a soldier in a different regiment to that in which he was killed in action it is invariably because he had been compulsorily transferred, not because he’d dressed up.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[dravin]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

As, I’ve said, based on collecting photos for a very long time now (albeit mostly digitally in recent years) I believe that it was not at all a widespread practice.

 

Whilst I would agree that it wasn't a widespread practice, I wish I could find more on it than it didn't happen

 

It seems to crop up often enough for there to be a better explanation

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, dravin said:

 

Whilst I would agree that it wasn't a widespread practice, I wish I could find more on it than it didn't happen

 

It seems to crop up often enough for there to be a better explanation

I’ve no idea where you get the idea that it “cropped up often” and would love to see the evidence.  The reason you won’t get a better explanation is because it wasn’t at all common.  To think that it was completely fails to understand the British Army and attitude to regimental uniform at a time when public consciousness of the military was far greater than today.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[dravin]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve no idea where you get the idea that it cropped up often and would love to see the evidence.  The reason you won’t get a better explanation is because it wasn’t at all common.  To think that it was completely fails to understand the British Army and attitude to regimental uniform at a time when publish conscious of the military was far greater than today.

 

I hear what you say and am not questioning your experience, I also understand what Kings regs say on the subject, but as we know KRs were not always followed, especially by civvies but how is it that it comes up often enough to merit the question, that a man is photographed in a uniform for a regt that he has not served in, or at least there is no record of him serving in

 

Some could be explained away by a man being moved to another regt but usually there is a record of that, if only on the medal card, or the photo is of another man entirely, family stories are often way off the mark 

 

I am *not* saying it definitely *did* happen, I am just trying to fathom out how the circumstances may come to be that a man is photographed in another regts uniform, I have no proof or I wouldn't be asking the question ;-) 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, dravin said:

 

I hear what you say and am not questioning your experience, I also understand what Kings regs say on the subject, but as we know KRs were not always followed, especially by civvies but how is it that it comes up often enough to merit the question, that a man is photographed in a uniform for a regt that he has not served in, or at least there is no record of him serving in

 

Some could be explained away by a man being moved to another regt but usually there is a record of that, if only on the medal card, or the photo is of another man entirely, family stories are often way off the mark 

 

I am *not* saying it definitely *did* happen, I am just trying to fathom out how the circumstances may come to be that a man is photographed in another regts uniform, I have no proof or I wouldn't be asking the question ;-) 

There are numerous cases where the records of a soldier’s movements between some of the regiments in which he served have been lost because WW2 bombing destroyed the majority of service records.  All that are left are POW records from the BRC, soldiers effects records, pensions, and medal index cards and associated rolls, NONE of which record all the units within which a soldier might have served.  At best they will give regiments (but not always battalions) with which he served overseas.  Dressing up as a common event is utter fantasy.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[dravin]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

There are numerous cases where the records of a soldier’s movements between some of the regiments in which he served have been lost because WW2 bombing destroyed the majority of service records.  All that are left are POW records from the BRC, soldiers effects records and medal index cards and associated rolls, NONE of which record all units with which a soldier might have served.  At best they will give regiments (but not always battalions) with which he served overseas.  Dressing up as a common event is utter fantasy.

 

Clearly its rubbing you up the wrong way so will give up on the subject

[Matlock1418]

23 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It fits in the same bracket as the equally spurious idea that soldier’s swagger sticks were photographers props!

Hmmm ...

So why did a young private in training get photographed [probably at Kinmel Park] with a swagger stick?

In this case has always seemed like a photographic studio's / photographer's prop to me.

And have suspected similarly in many other similar staged photos.

???

Your thoughts please.

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, dravin said:

 

Clearly its rubbing you up the wrong way so will give up on the subject

You can lead a horse to water....  I have politely responded to your queries and given you the best information that I have available.  I cannot help if you don’t get the answers that you seem to seek.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Hmmm ...

So why did a young private in training get photographed [probably at Kinmel Park] with a swagger stick?

In this case has always seemed like a photographic studio's / photographer's prop to me.

And have suspected similarly in many other similar staged photos.

???

Your thoughts please.

:-) M

I’ve posted on this subject many times in the forum so it gets a bit wearisome after a while.  The carriage of a swagger stick when walking out of barracks at home was laid down in unit standing orders, usually under ‘dress’.  They were not issued at public expense but made available very cheaply using such funding sources as canteen profits and other monies under the control of the commanding officer.  There are numerous examples of SOs and all are laid out similarly, the easiest one for me to show you is at the following link, where you can read paragraph 4 of page 26, for yourself: https://www.lancs-fusiliers.co.uk/gallerynew/2nd_Tidworth/2nd_Tidworth.htm

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[dravin]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

You can lead a horse to water....  I have politely responded to your queries and given you the best information that I have available.  I cannot help if you don’t get the answers that you seem to seek.

 

I appreciated your responses, and am not looking for the answers I want to hear, I am just looking for more on the subject or at least a plausible explanation for something that crops up

 

When I say crops up I mean photos are posted of men in a uniform, it seems more often a nice clean uniform for a regt they are not known to serve in 

 

I didn't see your mention on swagger sticks, which personally I have never seen suggested as a prop, swagger sticks were common enough anyway

 

 

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve posted on this subject many times in the forum so it gets a bit wearisome after a while.  The carriage of a swagger stick when walking out of barracks at home was laid down in unit standing orders, usually under dress and discipline.  

Please - this is not a challenge [nor I think by others] - and sorry if considered "wearisome"

I have a photo of a staged [taken in a 'library'] photo portrait of a young soldier in training - with a stick under his arm.

I also have an informal privately taken photo the same soldier at a higher rank walking out with a stick - but that is a different matter.[and I shall seek out your other posts on such]

:-) M

[GreyC]

I can´t say something about the practice in GB, but in Germany I know of at least one studio in Hamburg, Rothe und Co (active in the 1910s prewar), that advertised on the back of their photos:

"Uniforms of all branches of the army in store." Some studios had special wardrobe rooms and changing rooms to slip into the uniforms or other (civilian) suits, that "upped" their appearance.

GreyC

Edited 10 July , 2020 by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Please - this is not a challenge [nor I think by others] - and sorry if considered "wearisome"

I have a photo of a staged [taken in a 'library'] photo portrait of a young soldier in training - with a stick under his arm.

I also have an informal privately taken photo the same soldier at a higher rank walking out with a stick - but that is a different matter.[and I shall seek out your other posts on such]

:-) M

It’s not your fault that the subject crops up regularly, time moves on and new people join the forum and I try to help with their queries if I can because it saddens me that there is so much ignorance about our Nation’s armed forces, and their traditions and cultural practices (TV dramas and even Ch5 documentaries regularly make me cringe).  I was not saying that you were wearisome, just that the subject was, and I meant no offence to you.  I have added a link above to some specimen standing orders for you to examine.

 

8 minutes ago, GreyC said:

I can´t say something about the practice in GB, but in Germany I know of at least one studio in Hamburg Rothe und Co (active in the 1910s) that advertised on the back of their photos:

"Uniforms of all branches of the army in store." Some studios had special wardrobe rooms and changing rooms to slip into the uniforms or other (civilian) suits, that "upped" their appearance.

GreyC

Thank you Grey, I can make no comment about other Nation’s armies or cultural practice and was responding to a query in connection with Britain.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, dravin said:

 

I appreciated your responses, and am not looking for the answers I want to hear, I am just looking for more on the subject or at least a plausible explanation for something that crops up

 

When I say crops up I mean photos are posted of men in a uniform, it seems more often a nice clean uniform for a regt they are not known to serve in 

 

I didn't see your mention on swagger sticks, which personally I have never seen suggested as a prop, swagger sticks were common enough anyway

 

 

As I’ve tried to say more than once, I’d love to see the evidence that this regularly crops up in Britain.  Given that the majority of soldiers service records were destroyed, “not known to serve in” requires meaningful corroboration.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s not your fault that the subject crops up regularly, time moves on and new people join the forum and I try to help with their queries if I can because it saddens me that there is so much ignorance about our Nation’s armed forces.  I was not saying that you were wearisome, just that the subject was, and I meant no offence to you.  I have added a link above to some specimen standing orders for you to examine.

I had forgotten to add it was a young soldier in 1917/18 and an older one in 1919 but you got back very quickly.

"Sad" - I wish I new more!! - always appreciate your knowledgeable posts.

I may be doing this wrong but seem to have missed your link.

?

[Edit: you seem to have edited and now added - Further edit: or I had originally missed it - and now read from the SO - thanks, whichever way]

 

I did find this in one of your posts

"5.  Walking Out.  Until the end of 1914 recruits at the majority of depots and regimental HQs (i.e. for regular soldiers) walked-out of barracks in either, full-dress, or frocks with a matching rifle-green forage cap - which had a smart, short, shiny leather peak - and a swagger stick.  In 1915 this had changed to walking-out in ‘best’ SD, carefully smartened."

 

So my query remains for 1917/18 [I shall seek out more of your posts]

??

-) M

Edited 10 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
Edit as crossed posts & further edit

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I had forgotten to add it was a young soldier in 1917/18 and an older one in 1919 but you got back very quickly.

"Sad" - I wish I new more!! - always appreciate your knowledgeable posts.

I may be doing this wrong but seem to have missed your link.Edit: you seem to have edited and now added - thanks]

?

 

I did find this in one of your posts

"5.  Walking Out.  Until the end of 1914 recruits at the majority of depots and regimental HQs (i.e. for regular soldiers) walked-out of barracks in either, full-dress, or frocks with a matching rifle-green forage cap - which had a smart, short, shiny leather peak - and a swagger stick.  In 1915 this had changed to walking-out in ‘best’ SD, carefully smartened."

 

So my query remains for 1917/18 [I shall seek out more of your posts]

??

-) M

 

The reference to “changed to walking-out” in SD from [coloured] full dress/frock, etc. referred to the uniform.  There was no change with regards to carriage of swagger sticks at home right through the war (well recorded in Bn SOs). It was part and parcel of trying to inculcate a military pride in appearance among young men who had hitherto dressed and lounged about as they pleased.

 

 I can assure you the link was already there at the time I posted drawing your attention to it.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

49 minutes ago, dravin said:

 photos are posted of men in a uniform, it seems more often a nice clean uniform for a regt they are not known to serve in 

 

I didn't see your mention on swagger sticks, which personally I have never seen suggested as a prop, swagger sticks were common enough anyway

 

 

This seems to go hand in hand with another frequently asked question; " How come Uncle Fred/Joe was born in London, yet served in an Irish/Welsh/Scottish Regiment".

 From researching (with huge amounts of help from some very knowledgeable folk on this very forum) my collection of 3000+ photo postcards, hundreds of medals and items of personal kit, I have several examples of men joining local units, only to be transferred far from "home". 

 Surviving service papers show enlistment to infantry regiments, then a transfer within weeks to Royal Engineers or Army Service Corps, where pre-war skills were better utilized, or transfers the opposite way, from Corps and service units, to infantry regiments with manpower shortages due to casualties.

 Recruits reaching France wearing a nice crisp uniform of their West Country regiment (photos duly sent home for mum, nan,and the aunts) could find themselves heading north wearing an Irish harp within days!

Edited 10 July , 2020 by GWF1967

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, GWF1967 said:

This seems to go hand in hand with another frequently asked question; " How come Uncle Fred/Joe was born in London, yet served in an Irish/Welsh/Scottish Regiment".

 From researching (with huge amounts of help from some very knowledgeable folk on this very forum) my collection of 3000+ photo postcards, hundreds of medals and items of personal kit, I have several examples of men joining local units, only to be transferred far from "home". 

 Surviving service papers show enlistment to infantry regiments, then a transfer within weeks to Royal Engineers or Army Service Corps, where pre-war skills were better utilized, or transfers the opposite way, from Corps and service units to infantry regiments with manpower shortages due to casualties.

 Recruits reaching France wearing a nice crisp uniform of their West Country regiment (photos duly sent home for mum, nan,and the aunts) could find themselves heading north wearing an Irish harp within days!

Precisely put.  Thank you!

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The reference to changed to SD from [coloured] full dress/frock, etc. referred to the uniform.  There was no change with regards to swagger sticks.

Thank you for this - I am somewhat / even more enlightened

 

The young soldier in 1917/18 had a short stick under his arm [under training and SWB cap-badged] for his formal photo [at what a believe was taken at Kinmel Park - or at least during training at Kinmel Park - as have seen other photos with the same staging/background]

The then older soldier in 1919 has a longer cane, sort of pace stick length [also SWB cap-badged and a Serjeant] for his informal one elsewhere off camp in the UK.

You seem to have dismissed a miscomprehension I had apparently erroneously long held about his early photo..

 

Quick further questions please - Would a young soldier in training in UK [or even a trained soldier] have been permanently issued with a swagger stick?

Or in UK would such stick / cane have been temporarily signed out, back into stores and out again etc. according to short-term needs?

Otherwise, if not so 'issued', then it surely would most likely have been a briefly used photographer's 'prop' in 1917/18 and could be called as such.

???

 

I feel sure sticks / canes would have been taken on AS - so if OS I might feel such 'props' would be quite likely to be temporarily [even if not often] provided like so many other types of props used for such photos and thus also called as such - level of use in UK / OS obviously open to question / more research i guess.

:-) M

[dravin]

6 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

This seems to go hand in hand with another frequently asked question; " How come Uncle Fred/Joe was born in London, yet served in an Irish/Welsh/Scottish Regiment".

 From researching (with huge amounts of help from some very knowledgeable folk on this very forum) my collection of 3000+ photo postcards, hundreds of medals and items of personal kit, I have several examples of men joining local units, only to be transferred far from "home". 

 Surviving service papers show enlistment to infantry regiments, then a transfer within weeks to Royal Engineers or Army Service Corps, where pre-war skills were better utilized, or transfers the opposite way, from Corps and service units, to infantry regiments with manpower shortages due to casualties.

 Recruits reaching France wearing a nice crisp uniform of their West Country regiment (photos duly sent home for mum, nan,and the aunts) could find themselves heading north wearing an Irish harp within days!

 

Anyone who has spent some time researching would be fully aware of the movement of soldiers regt to regt as the armys wishes dictated, often more than once and the reason why so many served in regts they had no obvious affiliation or connection to 

 

Had the recruit been posted to France in one regt and transferred to another it would surely be recorded on his medal index card, and medal rolls, as I have seen on numerous occasions 

 

The instances I have mentioned are studio photos taken in England yet the man served in another regt