Walter Chettleburgh 38159

[ss002d6252]

Just now, Matlock1418 said:

On 18/09/2022 at 18:12, Matlock1418 said:

 

I continue to think 141793 is a rejection number

Yes, I agree. In the past I have cross-referenced these stamped numbers against those stamped alongside rejected and these type fit right in to that sequence.

Reg 181820 will likely be a registry case number.

Craig

[dbe]

Once again thank you for speedy and helpful replies. As I may have mentioned, I live in Sweden and so am dependent on on-line sources as much as I can.

Sometimes it feels as if I am on a hopeless task, but it won't be the first time, so I shall continue to burrow away.

Concerning his claim for disability, the card record registers a case and probably a decision/result - in this case rejection. Presumably, there must have been a submission or application on the part of the soldier concerned, Walter Chettleburgh, which might contain details of his disability and where it occurred. I wonder if Matlock 1418 or @ss002d6252 might know if these have been retained and if where they might be accessed. I noticed @ss002d6252 is in Sunderland, nice to see someone from the NE. I spent a few years on Tyneside before moving to Sweden.

On the matter of LoC, I wonder if there might, at a higher level, be decisions or directives concerning the workings of the LoC  which could give clues to how troops were moved around.

 

[Matlock1418]

36 minutes ago, dbe said:

Concerning his claim for disability, the card record registers a case and probably a decision/result - in this case rejection. Presumably, there must have been a submission or application on the part of the soldier concerned, Walter Chettleburgh, which might contain details of his disability and where it occurred. I wonder if Matlock 1418 or @ss002d6252 might know if these have been retained and if where they might be accessed.

It seems most of the main pension files, both dependants' and disability, were deliberately destroyed over the years after their use was ended.  [We have just been very lucky that they didn't get round to destroying the cards - and of course huge thanks to WFA and Fold3 for getting them out for us to access online]

A very few files were retained as samples, now under PIN 26 files at The National Archive - but I could not find Walter CHETTLEBURGH amongst them.

As most Service Records were destroyed in WW2 by bombing & fire some SR were partially reconstructed from pension records [lucky us! - these are the clearer/less tatty SR examples compared with saved 'burnt' ones] - commonly found on Ancestry and described as 'Pension'

If you haven't found there then your luck seems likely to have run dry [I can't access - unless some new source turns up!]

I will flag your enquiry to @ss002d6252  for you. [Note to you - to help get a mention to the attention of a member you must, after typing the @ and immediately after part of their name, then select them from a dropdown list to get the blue highlight and the mention will follow]

M

Edited 20 September , 2022 by Matlock1418

[kenf48]

From the CWGC website

"Arquata contained the headquarters of a lines of communication area, a base supply depot, a camp and a hospital for prisoners of war, and, at different times, two stationary hospitals."

https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/70500/arquata-scrivia-communal-cemetery-extension/

Camp Vaje at Arquata Scrivia was the major camp for soldiers heading to the Asiago Palteau.  I can see no casualties (they were apparently all influenza victims) from the Garrison Bn of the Suffolks but a number from the 1st Garrison Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers.

Similarly a Base Camp was created at Taranto,  as a cook he was probably engaged in catering. Garrison Battalions, as the name suggests and as adequately described above, were typically formed from (Fitness) 'Category B' men and were not expected to engage in front line activity

There is only one casualty from the 1st Suffolks (sic) in the CWGC Taranto Town Cemetery who died from pneumonia.  There are a number of deaths as a consequence of malaria interred there.

As for your original question Malaria in all theatres of the war including Italy and Taranto its prevalence and treatment is discussed in Medical Diseases of the war Volume 1 which is available online

https://archive.org/details/medicalservicesd01macpuoft

 

 

[dbe]

Just a brief note before I travel. Many thanks for your help. I have downloaded the Medical diseases volume and will read that while away.

I realise that finding records of my soldier will be difficult. But there are various clues. Returning to my notes on Italy, I realised that Lines of Communication and Base came under the authority of the Inspector-General of Communications, who in Italy was Lieutenant-General Sir H.M. Lawson from 16th November 1917 and his duties included not just "the communications between the Base in Italy and General Plummer's forces, but also the 'overland' line through Italy to Taranto". Again these records are in the National Archives, but not digitised, so browsing these for any possible information will mean a trip to Kew. I noticed in passing an earlier thread on the organisation of the armed forces administration including references to the Adjutant-General and Quartermaster-General which might have a bearing on Lines of Communication.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, dbe said:

Just a brief note before I travel. Many thanks for your help. I have downloaded the Medical diseases volume and will read that while away.

I realise that finding records of my soldier will be difficult. But there are various clues. Returning to my notes on Italy, I realised that Lines of Communication and Base came under the authority of the Inspector-General of Communications, who in Italy was Lieutenant-General Sir H.M. Lawson from 16th November 1917 and his duties included not just "the communications between the Base in Italy and General Plummer's forces, but also the 'overland' line through Italy to Taranto". Again these records are in the National Archives, but not digitised, so browsing these for any possible information will mean a trip to Kew. I noticed in passing an earlier thread on the organisation of the armed forces administration including references to the Adjutant-General and Quartermaster-General which might have a bearing on Lines of Communication.

I wish you well with your research, which I’m sure from what you have said that you will find generally interesting, although I’m not sure that you have fully grasped that records pertaining to an individual soldier’s activities on the LofC will not have been retained.  He was in effect a tiny cog in an enormous machine.  Hospital records might have contained traces, but as explained the vast majority were destroyed.  That said, you are quite correct that there was an Inspector General of Communications (IGC) for all the theatres of war, who was responsible for all activity on the LofC and the preeminent logistical and administrative link between the combatants in the forward area and the support at the base (channel ports area). No doubt though, you will find high level policy documents concerning general activity, and the role of the staff divisions, AG and QMG, within it.

Edited 21 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[dbe]

Since my last entry, I have spent some time in the National Archives exploring the various documents of the LoC in Taranto. As a result I have the following description of the No.2 Coy which seems to have spent the war from Sept 1917 to Dec 1919 in Taranto, Italy. My GF's memorabilia would indicate that he spent several months in the north of Italy. I have discovered a short entry stating that 1 officer and 50 OR from the Garrison Coy were to leave Taranto for Arquata on 7th Nov 1917, on the train at 15:00. It seems possible that my GF was part of that group(platoon?). Either way I thought I would share my knowledge of No 2 Coy with you for others to have access to. Unfortunately the system did not accept my file as an attachment. I hope you find the following account interesting and valuable.

 

No.2 (Service) Company 1st (Reserve) Garrison Battalion Suffolk Regiment

The 1st (Reserve) Garrison Battalion Suffolk Regiment was based on Grain Island had been formed in 1916 and seems to have been something of a clearing house for various soldiers who were either too old for active service, injured/disabled from other regiments, or classified as B category fitness. According to the regimental history and the Long Long Trail website this Battalion had only one company overseas, serving in France on Lines of Communication duties. However, my research into my Grandfather’s wartime service has involved research into ’parallel lives’ of soldiers who may have been in the same company and official documents such as war diaries and other histories which identify which company he might have been with. All this indicates that a No 2 (Service) Company of the 1st (Reserve) Garrison Battalion the Suffolk Regiment had existed and spent the war in Italy.

No 2 Company was formed prior to 5th November 1917 (probably in late July/earlyAugust) and assembled in Chatham from various disbanded Home Service Battalions, and was inspected at Aldershot before being sent overseas on 5th September 1917 (see correspondence in Private W. Oakes’ service record). The company left the U.K. on 5th September 1917, landed at Boulogne on 6th September and proceeded to Italy via Lyons Modane and Turin to be placed in Taranto in the far south of Italy on Lines of Communications duties.

The official history of the Great War, Italy includes  this company in Orders for Battle in June 1918 (Official History of the War:Italy. Appendix 1), but there is evidence of soldiers from the company being disciplined (Pte. Baldwin) in Taranto and being admitted to hospital (Pte. Kent) there in October and November 1917. So it seems safe to assume that this company saw service in Taranto from September 1917 until the Base was closed on 16th December 1919.

The soldiers in this company formed an integral part of the inland Lines of Communication running from Cherbourg  to Taranto, which provided men, materiel and supplies to the theatres of war in France/Belgium, Italy, Mesopotamia, Salonika and Egypt and acting as a secure transport route home for the sick, injured and men on leave. It was also part of the link to India and East Africa.

  No. 2 Company seems to have been organized in accordance with  instructions prior to the new Council Instruction 45 of October 1917 for Garrison Battalions (See the Long Long Trail) In my search through service records, army lists, war diaries and routine orders,( in particular of LoC Taranto) I have managed to compile a profile of the company which reveals 1 Major as Officer in Command, 1 Captain, 6 Lieutenants, 2 2nd Lieutenants, 1 Sergeant-Major, 3 Sergeants, 2 Corporals and 5 Lance-Corporals.  I have also found 16 Privates.

Generally speaking, their ages and backgrounds are consistent with what I have seen of the rest of the Battalion: they are older (close to the upper age limit of 41), have come from other regiments, (such as the West Kents and Middlesex which were based in Chatham) have often been injured and are classified medically as B1 or less. Some officers appear on the Army List for the Battalion in November 1917 but were not there in June, which again confirms the date on which the Company was formed.

The C.O was a Major C. St. A. Wake who was 56 in 1917. He had had a chequered career in the army having served in East Africa for many years, where he lost a leg. He had been retired from the East African Rifles. He had served in the Ottoman Empire in the 1911-12 war against Italy and had also served a short while in Ireland. Prior to joining No 2 Company he had been with the Royal Kents. He appears on the Army List for the Battalion in November 1917 but not June. He served on several Courts Martial in 1918 and 1919, sometimes as President

Captain R.L. Lumley had been with the West Kents, presumably in Chatham, before being transferred in September 1917, was on the Army List for November 1917 and served on Courts Martial in 1918 and 1919 in Taranto. Of the six Lieutenants two (Head and Jones) were on the Army List of November 1917, but not June, two came from other regiments (Lucas from the Essex Regiment and I. MacNish from the 7th Btn British West Indies Regiment), 5 had served on Courts Martial or Courts of Inquiry in 1918/19 in Taranto, (L.W. Lucas, E.H. Jones, J. Oldham, J.W. Swindwell and R.I. Head). 2nd Lieutenants S. Jackson and H.J. Brockman were also members of Courts Martial in 1919 and Jackson was on the Army List for November 1917, but not June.

Sergeant Major  G.P. Jary (10512) was an experienced soldier. He had joined at the beginning of the war in August 1914 with the Norfolk Regiment, he was then transferred to the Essex Regiment and then to No 2 (Service) Company 1st (Reserve) Garrison Battalion Suffolk Regiment. He is recorded as playing for the other ranks in the officers v men cricket match on 22/6/1919. Of three sergeants S. Maples (70208), V. Theobald (38584) and Cresswell, the only information I have gleaned is that Maples had been with the South Staffs and the Hereford Regiments. Of Corporals E. Bullock (44861) and Harris (65772) the only information I have is that Bullock was on  Court Martial on 26/11/1919.

I have traced the names of 5 Lance Corporals: A. Pearson (68918), J. Grimsey (38010), J. Thompson (48510), Duncan (38179) and A.H. Streeter. Of these Grimsey was 35 in 1917 and was transferred from the Royal West Kents, Thompson was 18 and was also attached to the West Kents, Duncan was previously with the Middlesex Regiment and Streeter with the Hampshires and the Labour Corps.

Information about the Privates I have discovered as part of No 2 Company varies. They can be grouped roughly according to when they joined or were transferred to the company. Nearly all of the first soldiers to be transferred had regimental numbers from 38150 upwards to  38870 and formed the original members of the company that went abroad on 5th September 1917. They came from other regiments and were in their late 30s early 40s at the time Here we find W. Chettleburgh (38159) aged 39 from the 5th Middlesex,  W.R. Kent (38172) aged 37 also from the Middlesex Regiment, R.C. Baldwin (38590) aged 39 from the West Kents, W. Oakes (38594) aged 51 also West Kents, W. Owen (38677) aged 39,  C. W. Bressington (38679)  first with the Gloucesters and then the West Kents,  J. Rogan (38789) and H. Johnson (38865). Privates Kent, Baldwin, Bressington and Owen had been wounded or injured earlier in the war.

Two much younger soldiers joined No 2 Company in late 1918  and early 1919, they too came from other regiments. H.G. Yarker (44901) was 19 in 1917 and joined in March 1919 from the Yorkshire Regiment and F. (?) Hillam (47441) aged 25 in 1917 joined from the West Riding Regiment in  December 1918. Then there are a few men joining in 1919, sometimes late 1919. E.P. Waters (65686) joined from the 3rd Suffolks on 15/11/19 in Arquata, H. (?) Day (68133) was transferred to No 2 Company on 28/4/19, also previously with the Garrison Battalion Essex Regiment, and Gillman (68138) was at Arquata Rest Camp in December 1919 with malaria.

The War Diaries and Service Records also provide some information  on life as a LoC infantry soldier in addition to guard, sentry and escort duties. A cricket match between officers and men in Taranto on 22 June 1919 saw Hillam, Yarker and Jary playing for the other ranks and Lucas playing for the officers. A private Butler played left half in the football match between the Army and the Navy in Taranto on 9th March 1919.  Young Lance Corporal Thompson was promoted to sergeant in Taranto in August 1919 and L/c Grimsey to Sergeant on 20th June 1919. Grimsey had been reprimanded for arriving late for the 7.30 am parade on 29th September 1917.

Courts Martial and disciplinary hearings also give an insight into life in Italy. On 30th July 1918 W.R. Kent faced a court martial for being in possession of red wine at the Cimino Camp, Taranto. R.C. Baldwin was disciplined for being drunk in Taranto at 7.30 am, for altering a pass and breaking out of camp on 12th October 1918.

On 30th September 1919, No 2 (Service) Company also appears in the the ”Routine Orders of the Commander Taranto Base ” under 1927 S.S. 672 Demobilization Chart which lists the units shown in B.R.O. 1728 under the administration of Base HQ Taranto for demobilization purposes and which was now to reads as follows:

Base HQ (including No 9 Rest Camp)

Postal Services Taranto

No 2 (S) Co, 1st (G) Bn Suffolk Regiment

1/6th Bn Gloster [sic] Regiment

48th Bn M.G. Corps Details

Permanent Train staff

Det 8th Yorks and Lancs Reg

On 16th December 1919 the last train left Taranto for Arquata for onward movement to the UK, which marks the latest date for which men of No 2 Company would have left and the company was in effect disbanded. Troops came first to Arquata the LoC headquarters in Italy for transfer to the UK, and seemed to have left on 30th December 1919 at the latest for demobilization (Dem Roll) in the UK. Dispersal camps were allocated in relation to the soldier’s home so there are soldiers demobilized at Purfleet (Thames estuary Essex) on 9th January or thereabouts and at Ripon. On demobilization soldiers were on 28 days furlough, were given a suit, or a sum of money could keep their greatcoats for GBP1 and were provided with a trail warrant home, etc.

This limited description of the men of No 2 (Service) Company 1st (Reserve) Garrison Battalion Suffolk Regiment gives only a potted history of the life and work of the company in Italy between September 1917 and December 1919.  It was a Company of mixed ages, but mostly older soldiers, many with war wounds, coming from all parts of the UK and beyond. For two years they did their duty and as far as I can ascertain almost all of these men were demobilized and transferred to the reserve in January and February 1920

[charlie962]

15 hours ago, dbe said:

Of three sergeants S. Maples (70208), V. Theobald (38584) and Cresswell, the only information I have gleaned is that Maple

You've certainly been busy.

Victor Theobald has a surviving service record with perhaps useful dates for confirmation.

Ex RWKs (7276), originally attested 1903 and mobilised from the Reserve in 1914. Posted to 2nd Service Coy 1st Reserve Gn Bn Suffolks 2/9/17. 

Embarked 5/9/17.

At Ovada, Italy, on 16/11/17 refused to comply with an order.  Reprimanded. Witnesses: S/6432 Underwood N (AVC), 027934 Pillow TF (AOC), 102789 Foster F (LC). I quote these last to eliminate them as being in Gn Bn. Captain signing has AOD after his name. Might this be Army Ordnance Depot? 

Charlie

 

 

Edited 3 March , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

What about Corporal  Paxton 38587, ex 1st Middlesex then RWKs before 2Coy 1st Reserve Gn Bn Suffolks trfd 1/9/17. 

Also Corporal Tolliday 38585, similar record to Paxton. Note Tolliday embarked Southampton 5/9/17 and disembarked Cherbourg 6/9/17 (not Boulogne)

[charlie962]

Another in that 38xxx series is CSgtMajor Milton 38583. Ex Gloucesters 1897-1916, then RWK (GnBn) he too was posted to Suffolks 2coy 1stResGB 1/9/17 and embarked 5/9/17.

Are these extra NCO names of help? 

Note that these last few seem to have gone via the RWK Garrison Bn before reaching the Suffolks. Perhaps similar for Chettleburgh?

[dbe]

Many thanks for this information, I have added these names to my list. The dates for embarkation confirm a transfer overseas on 5th Sept. It all adds to the picture I am building of No 2 Coy. (It seems strange that the official history of the regiment does not include even a passing, a reference to this company).  As far as the RWKs are concerned I attach the letter sent in connection with an enquiry as to why Pte Oakes was sent overseas. It explains quite clearly how this company was formed, underlining the fact that the 1st Reserve Garrison Battalion was largely an administrative convenience. I believe the RWK were based at Chatham at the time as were the Middlesex. Chettleburgh's notes for Portslade have the 5th Middlesex, also based at Chatham, as his Battalion and Regiment.

I haven't yet had time to check your references to see them for myself, but do you have any demobilization dates for these men? I have a pattern of transfer from Taranto to Arquata, and then to England with dates 16th Dec, 30th Dec and 5th/7th January respectively. This explains why my GF's last postcards home ask the family to keep the Christmas decorations for him to see (i.e. after 12th Night).

The question is perhaps why this company  was formed at all. My guess is that once France and the UK decided to send armies to Italy, it was necessary to strengthen the LoC and provide various units for this. It would seem logical to form service garrison companies from older, B class men rather than sending fit young men needed for the front. Later in the war, after the armistices, it would also seem logical to send young new recruits to ease them into service abroad, or am I wrong?

 

Once again many thanks for the new material.

Dbe

[charlie962]

Those garrison Bns were indeed an administrative device. I've seen the same in Mesopotamia theatre where men of the same Bn were actually doing duty in a wide variety of places and functions, for practical purposes reporting to a local unit rather than Battalion HQ.

I'll look up some more this evening.

[dbe]

Hi charlie962,

Again thanks for your help. Victor Theobald is interesting given the date of his reprimand in Ovada, he could have been part of the platoon sent to Arquata from Taranto on 7th Nov 1917.

Ovada came under the Arquata area which also included Rivalta Scrivia, an ammunition depot not far from Ovada, so AOD as Army Ordnance Depot might well fit this.

dbe

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, dbe said:

an enquiry as to why Pte Oakes was sent overseas

A useful find. 

Have you worked through all the 38xxx series records? As you said, they include a lot of 2nd Service Company men and there are a reasonable number of surviving service records.