R.N.R. Good Conduct Badges

[stuart rowles]

Attached in one of the service sheets for Harry Bray Rowles RVR.

On the right of the sheet is mention of Good Conduct Badges being awarded.

Can someone tell me what exactly he was awarded. How may stripes would he have and what colour.

A picture would be good if you have one.

[FROGSMILE]

Just realised you are talking about Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and not Army.

 

They were worn on the left sleeve, directly below the rating badge (if any). Originally signifying five, ten and fifteen years, in 1860 the requirement for the first badge was lowered to three years, but the other intervals remained the same, resulting in badges for three, eight and thirteen years. Chief petty officers and artificer ratings did not wear good conduct badges. The colour schemes were the same as for the rating badges.

 

Your man seems to have been awarded two.  In best rig the badges were gold and in working rig red.  In white tropical rig they were a dark blue.  I think that’s right, but forum member horatio2 will advise if I’ve got that wrong.

 

Edited 21 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[ARABIS]

I read it as 3/9/17 Granted 1st GCB

8/4/18 1916 & 1917 chevrons awarded.

So he had one GCB & two sea service chevrons. The latter were worn on the right cuff.

 

ARABIS. 

[RNCVR]

He entered 5 Sep 1914, he would have been due for his 1st GCB 3 yrs later, he was awarded it, as Arabis says, on 3 Sep 1917.

 

Froggie - GCB's were worn below their rank badge( if they had one - ie: LS, PO) on left sleeve as shown in photo of Coastguardmen in yr post 2 above.

Their Rate badge was worn on their right sleeve, again, if they had one.  ie: SG, ST, Stoker, Writer, Signalman etc.

 

Best....Bryan

Edited 21 May , 2020 by RNCVR
.

[ARABIS]

Here is a photo of a stoker wearing two sea service chevrons on his right cuff.

 

ARABIS.

 

[stuart rowles]

Thanks everyone. I think I have got it.

On his left sleeve he would have had a leading seaman badge and underneath 1 Good Conduct chevron pointng downwards

and on his right sleev he would have had his trade badge (Telegraphist) and lower down on the cuff, 2 cherons pointing upwards.

 

PS Does anyone have a picture of a telegraphist badge for WW1.

[RNCVR]

Telegraphist rate badges upper left --

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

He entered 5 Sep 1914, he would have been due for his 1st GCB 3 yrs later, he was awarded it, as Arabis says, on 3 Sep 1917.

 

Froggie - GCB's were worn below their rank badge( if they had one - ie: LS, PO) on left sleeve as shown in photo of Coastguardmen in yr post 2 above.

Their Rate badge was worn on their right sleeve, again, if they had one.  ie: SG, ST, Stoker, Writer, Signalman etc.

 

Best....Bryan

Thank you Bryan (and Aramis), that all makes sense.  I can see now that the GCB and service stripes were mentioned on the record in the same place, which I misinterpreted.

 

Edited 21 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

I am not 100% certain what a W.T.O. rate badge would be - ie: how many stars above\below the basic Teleg rate logo.

 

In the 1WW RCN\RNCVR a W.T.O. was classed as a Warrant rank.  But in R.N.R. I assume a ratings rank.

 

There is nothing to indicate on his Record he was a Leading Telegraphist?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Best.... Bryan

Edited 21 May , 2020 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

It seems likely that he was just a basic Telegraphist with the single star above his functional rate badge.  As you say, nothing on his record to say he was a Leading rate.

 

However, it appears as if just the central  device (motif) was worn according to these two WW1 Telegraphists.

 

Edited 21 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Thanks Froggie, I think Rowles would have been a trained Teleg.  Likely one or two stars.

 

Nice RPPC's!

 

Best...Bryan

[RNCVR]

Stuart,

 

I have att'd a photo of RN War Service Chevrons to give you an idea of how that insignia looked like.  The red chevron represented 1914 service, the blue chevrons were for the following years of the war.

 

Now here another question -- Rowles was awarded WS Chevrons for 1916 & 1917, & likely would have rec'd the 1918 chevron subsequently, altho not recorded on his Record. 

Would he not have rec'd WS Chevrons for 1914 & 1915 as well? He was serving at Vernon & Victory (both bases) then.

My question being - did they only receive WS Chevrons only for active (ie: sea) service?

 

Thanks, Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Thanks Froggie, I think Rowles would have been a trained Teleg.  Likely one or two stars.

 

Nice RPPC's!

 

Best...Bryan

Yes, I think it was a star above as per this illustration from the 1908 Naval Ratings Handbook.

 

With regards to the star I was very interested to learn the following:

 

“Stars on naval uniforms are relatively new dating from the late 19th century.  At that time it was decided to use a symbol with a nautical connotation, and the one chosen was the original nautical compass rose used by the Romans.  They used 12-points to 'box their compass'  as we today 'box the compass' using 32-points or higher depending upon the degree of accuracy required. If you study a naval ratings star more carefully,

you will note that from the centre point, the inner circle, there are twelve lines drawn out to fixed points on the outside of the star. The vertical lines point to NORTH and SOUTH respectively while the horizontal lines point to EAST and WEST respectively. The other lines,  moving from NORTH clockwise, are each at 30º distance from the preceding point and thus overall, the rose covers 000º, 030º, 060º, 090º, 120º, 150º, 180º, 210º, 240º, 270º, 300º, 330º.”

 

Edited 21 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[horatio2]

There is a marked lack of evidence about the RNR WTOs. For a start, they were not, I believe, the same as RN Seaman Branch Telegraphists (trained up as such from entry). They were taken straight into the RNR as 'Wireless Telegraphy Operators" (WTO) so they clearly had previous employment in WT, probably as Marconi men. I suspect that they were rated as CPOs.. Large numbers of them (about a third of the 500 WTOs) were promoted to Warrant rank.

I have strong doubts that they were dressed as seamen, so the previous excellent examples of badges may not be applicable.

 

In a previous topic I wrote:  There was a huge enrolment of WTOs as soon as the war started. About 300 of the 500 WTS ratings were enrolled in August and September 1914. Most were advanced to WTO 1st Class in a matter of days or weeks and many were quickly promoted to warrant Telegraphist. A fair number were entered as WTO ratings but had their enrolment immediately cancelled on being awarded warrant rank on the same date. As a quick benchmark, the first seventy WTS enrolments saw 70% of their number promoted to Warrant Telegraphist, the rest serving all their time as WTO 2nd/1st Class.

 

The full previous discussion is here:-

 

 

Edited 21 May , 2020 by horatio2

[FROGSMILE]

There seems to be some research regarding the badges worn during the evolution of RN Communication rates here: http://www.godfreydykes.info/RN_COMMUNICATION_BRANCH_BADGES_THROUGH_THE_YEARS.html

 

And the career structure and advancement here: http://www.godfreydykes.info/1906 two.pdf

Edited 21 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[horatio2]

John William DALE was a WTO RNR. An image of him here (Facebook):-  https://www.facebook.com/117600881609310/posts/wireless-telegraph-operator-john-william-dale-rnr-hms-ramsey-was-killed-in-actio/2305247492844627/

 

In the image he is dressed as a CPO with a CPO collar badge (crown above).

[horatio2]

In Nov 1918 a question was raised in Parliament about WTO's pay. Inter alia "... in the early days of the War entrants were offered the choice between civilian pay previously earned, plus 15 per cent., and the pay of a wireless telegraph operator, R.N.R., 1st class."

The full question here -  https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1918/nov/04/royal-naval-reserve-telegraphists

[ARABIS]

36 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Stuart,

 

I have att'd a photo of RN War Service Chevrons to give you an idea of how that insignia looked like.  The red chevron represented 1914 service, the blue chevrons were for the following years of the war.

 

Now here another question -- Rowles was awarded WS Chevrons for 1916 & 1917, & likely would have rec'd the 1918 chevron subsequently, altho not recorded on his Record. 

Would he not have rec'd WS Chevrons for 1914 & 1915 as well? He was serving at Vernon & Victory (both bases) then.

My question being - did they only receive WS Chevrons only for active (ie: sea) service?

 

Thanks, Bryan

 

For the naval services they are Sea Service chevrons i.e. service at sea.  

The Secretary of the Admiralty announced their award in May 1918 stating that the individual must have an aggregate of three months qualification service in the year to entitle him to the award for that year.

I assume War Service chevrons are for the army, but would the RND qualify for these?

 

ARABIS. 

[horatio2]

7 minutes ago, ARABIS said:

but would the RND qualify for these?

They did qualify,

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

John William DALE was a WTO RNR. An image of him here (Facebook):-  https://www.facebook.com/117600881609310/posts/wireless-telegraph-operator-john-william-dale-rnr-hms-ramsey-was-killed-in-actio/2305247492844627/

 

In the image he is dressed as a CPO with a CPO collar badge (crown above).

So this would have been the dress, less the white cap cover? 
 

Edited 21 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[ARABIS]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

So this would have been the dress, less the white cap cover? 
 

 

The cap badge is post 1920 with the wreath added.

 

ARABIS.

16 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

They did qualify,

 

Thank you horatio2.

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, ARABIS said:

 

The cap badge is post 1920 with the wreath added.

 

ARABIS.

 

Yes I should have mentioned that.

[RNCVR]

We dont really know at this time if Rowles was indeed a Warrant Telegraphist, if he was he would have been wearing an Officer's uniform & cap badge.

 

Horatio, Is there a way of determining that from his ON?

 

Best....

Bryan

[horatio2]

ROWLES was not ptomoted to WO Tel.  His RNR record shows that he was demobilised as a WTO 1st Class.

[RNCVR]

Thanks Horatio, clears that possibility up.

 

Best....

Bryan