5th Kings Royal Rifle Corps

[Daniel Breed]

Very interesting read my great great grandad Charles Bissett  in 1891 was a bugler in the 5th battalion of the King’s Royal Regiment. And lived in Huntingdon his son my my 2x great uncle Charles was in ww1 and I think lived at Huntingdon Barracks but I can't find any information  my great grandad Charle's brother inlaw was Fred Chapman  lived at the barracks after living at St Germain Street Huntingdon he was cavalry Yeoman he's the solder in the middle does anyone have any information it would be much appreciated by me and my elderly father  also my elder father say about a shooting range behind  what was behind the territorial pub in Huntingdon it was a drinking club too as his grandad was in charge there and alway came back drunk I'm definitely no expert as I said it is all much appreciated for any information as my father really care for his grandad and he's a very nice man he said 

Thank you 

Daniel Breed 

[MBrockway]

As I'm sure you're aware, none of the soldiers in your photos are KRRC.

Can't help with any of the Yeomanry and 5/KRRC relocated to Woolwich in 1908 when the Militia was converted to the Special Reserve, thus ending the KRRC's regimental association with the Huntingdon area.  Those on the 5/KRRC roll at the time are likely to have transferred to a Special Reserve battalion more local to Huntingdon. 

Of the Special Reserve bns nearest to Huntingdon, 3/ and 4/ Bedfordshire Regt were both in Bedford (~20 miles); 3/Northants at Northampton (~40 miles); 3/Suffolk at Bury St Edmunds (~45 miles); and 3/Norfolk at Norwich (~80 miles).  The Cambridgeshire Regt was purely Territorial Force and had no Special Reserve.

The Volunteers (i.e. VF, NOT militia) local to Huntingdon were the 4th Volunteer Bn of the Bedfordshire Regiment and on conversion to the Territorial Force in 1908 became four companies of the 5th Beds.  Recruits were drawn from Huntingdon, St Ives, Fletton and St Neots.

Here's a summary of the uniform, titles, etc., of the Huntingdon Rifles:

 ... and the officer's pouch belt referred to above:

     

[Sources: Major HG Parkyn. English Militia Regiments - Buttons & Badges 1757-1935 (1936), p.227 and Plate VI]

The cap badge was similar up to 1881 when the battalion adopted the KRRC maltese cross.

HTH

Mark

 

Edited 6 March , 2023 by MBrockway
Added source omitted earlier in error

[Daniel Breed]

Thankyou Mark i know very little about anything to do with the armed forces i found this forum on google  and thought if these people dont know nobody will. I appreciate all the information  thankyou it will help me on my discovery of what the three got up too in their careers in the forces 

Kindest regards Daniel

 

Very interesting read my great great grandad Charles Bissett  in 1891 was a bugler in the 5th battalion of the King’s Royal Regiment. And lived in Huntingdon his son my my 2x great uncle Charles was in ww1 and I think lived at Huntingdon Barracks but I can't find any information  my great grandad Charle's brother inlaw was Fred Chapman  lived at the barracks after living at St Germain Street Huntingdon he was cavalry Yeoman he's the solder in the middle does anyone have any information it would be much appreciated by me and my elderly father  also my elder father say about a shooting range behind  what was behind the territorial pub in Huntingdon it was a drinking club too as his grandad was in charge there and alway came back drunk I'm definitely no expert as I said it is all much appreciated for any information as my father really care for his grandad and he's a very nice man he said 

Thank you 

Daniel Breed 

[PRC]

Hi @Daniel Breed and a belated welcome to the forum 

4 hours ago, Daniel Breed said:

my great great grandad Charles Bissett  in 1891 was a bugler in the 5th battalion of the King’s Royal Regiment.

The 33 year old bugler in the 5th Battalion Kings Royal Rifles on the 1891 Census of England & Wales was a Charles BLISSETT - hopefully that is the correct surname for your relative.

His birthplace was unknown. A married man, he was head of the household at 5 Herbert Yard, Huntingdon. It looks like he was living out, as the heads of the other households in Herberts Yard are all non-military. His wife is the 23 year old Annie M. Blissett, born Huntingdon. Living with them are their two daughters Annie, (4) and Kate, (1) - both born Huntingdon. Therr are also two Privates of the 5th Battalion living with them as boarders.

His Regular Army enlistment for 12 years from the 10th March 1883 Edit 1885 - see later post, in the Kings Royal Rifle Corps has survived, although he states that he had seen previous military service with the 5th Battalion. Then aged 24 years and 11 months, birth place St. Pauls, London Middlesex, he gave his trade or occupation as Musician. He enlisted at Huntingdon and recevived regimental service number 2666, serving as a Bugler. He was transferred to the Army Reserve on the 10th March 1892, and discharged on the 9th March 1897. All of his service was in the UK. There is no record of next of kin, children, or marriage. These records are available on the likes of FindMyPast.

The 1901 Census of England & Wales finds the family at 9 Royal Oak Passage, Huntingdon, with Charles senior now recorded as a "46" year old Nurserymans labourer. As well as daughters Annie, (14) and Kate, (11) there is also a 9 year old son Charles R. Blissett, born Huntingdon. The birth of a Charles Robert Blissett, mothers' maiden name Cooke, was registered with the civil authorities in the Huntingdon District in the first quarter of 1892.

The 1911 Census of England & Wales finds the family at 13 St Germain Street, Huntingdon. Father Charles is a Painters Labourer for a Coach Builder. Son Charles Robert Blissett, (19) is a clerk in solicitors office. This was the first Census return completed by a member of the household. Interestingly Charles Robert Blissett has completed the declaration on behalf of his father.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited

It may be a co-incidence but there is a Great War era Medal Index Card for a Colour Serjeant 206158 Charles R. Blissett, Hertfordshire Rergiment who subsequently held the same rank by the end of the conflict with the Cambridgeshire Regiment. His new Regimental Service number with them was 345053. Note - it will need to be confirmed that he went Herts to Cambs and not the other way

These cards are pretty much what they say on the tin, index cards raised at the relevant records office from late 1918 onwards to help the clerks keep track of the paperwork and correspondence to do with the issue of medals. Much of what they contain is administrative references pointing to the relevant page of a regiment roll or memos giving authorisation for various actions. In this case the rolls they point us to confirms that soldiers name was Charles Robert Blissett. But they don't usually contain any personal information, and as is the case for the majority, the reverse side of the card is blank.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

Like the vast majority soldiers who served in the ranks, the likes of Ancestry, Fold 3 and FindMyPast don't appear to have any surviving service records for him. The most common reason for this is that most went up in flames in WW2 when German bombs hit the London warehouse where they were being stored. The other is that he stayed in the Territorial Force, continuing to serve as a part-timer after 1920 - in which case his records would be held by the Ministry of Defence.

While the going up in flames in the more likely reason, the pre-war Territorial Force appealed to the likes of young white collar professionals such as clerks, and was treated as much as a social organisation as a military one. The pre-war Territorial Force was intended for defence of the home island and only a small minority signed up for the additional overseas service in defence of the empire. As you can see from the card he qualified for the Territorial Force War Medal, (T.F.War). That means he served either at home or on garrison duty overseas at some point in 1914/15 in circumstances that means he didn't qualify for any war service medals. Only with the coming of conscription in 1916 did the Terriers lose any choice over whether they served at home or abroad.

As he was someone serving in the Territorial Force, he would also have been subject to the new service numbering regime that came in at the start of 1917. Both those service numbers come from this later stage of the war and only one of them would have been issued at the time of the renumbering - the other was just a spare number from the unused block that had been allocated. There is some more more information on our parent site here https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

A lot of information to take in,  and it still needs to be confirmed that the right Charles Robert Blissett has been identified, so I'll take a break there.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 6 March , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[Daniel Breed]

Amazing work peter thankyou I can't wait to show my father  

Kind regards 

 

Daniel Breed 

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Hi @Daniel Breed and a belated welcome to the forum 

The 33 year old bugler in the 5th Battalion Kings Royal Rifles on the 1891 Census of England & Wales was a Charles BLISSETT - hopefully that is the correct surname for your relative.

His birthplace was unknown. A married man, he was head of the household at 5 Herbert Yard, Huntingdon. It looks like he was living out, as the heads of the other households in Herberts Yard are all non-military. His wife is the 23 year old Annie M. Blissett, born Huntingdon. Living with them are their two daughters Annie, (4) and Kate, (1) - both born Huntingdon. Therr are also two Privates of the 5th Battalion living with them as boarders.

His Regular Army enlistment for 12 years from the 10th March 1883 in the Kings Royal Rifle Corps has survived, although he states that he had seen previous"compulsory" military service with the 5th Battalion. Then aged 24 years and 11 months, birth place St. Pauls, London Middlesex, he gave his trade or occupation as Musician. He enlisted at Huntingdon and recevived regimental service number 2666, serving as a Bugler. He was transferred to the Army Reserve on the 10th March 1892, and discharged on the 9th March 1897. All of his service was in the UK. There is no record of next of kin, children, or marriage. These records are available on the likes of FindMyPast.

 

Peter

Peter - I don't have access to FMP - can you tell us which of the four KRRC Regular battalions he joined in 1883?  I can then give some info on his likely movements.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, MBrockway said:

Peter - I don't have access to FMP - can you tell us which of the four KRRC Regular battalions he joined in 1883?  I can then give some info on his likely movements.

Hi Mark,

Apologies, he joined at Huntingdon in March 1885 - records in the WO97 Regular Army series. He stated he was serving up until then with the 5th Battalion, so possibly he had served 12 years from the age of 12 years 11 months, probably as a boy musician.

His statements of service are a bit all over the place. One page with just a single entry records him as "attached" as a Bugler to the 5th Battalion from the 10th March 1885.

The other details the awards of Good Conduct pay, his move to the Army Reserve and his eventual discharge after completing his 12 years in 1897.

All images courtesy Genes Reunited.

So looks like all his time in the colours were with the 5th Battalion.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 6 March , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[Daniel Breed]

Charles Blissett was an orphan and grew up in a orphanage in London he had no family I've tried locating his family if it is his real last name not a name that the orphanage or government gave him but with no luck unfortunately 

[MBrockway]

It looks to me like he was on the permanent staff of the Militia battalion rather than the part time members, whose obligation (unless the militia was embodied) was for annual training only.  This was originally for 21 days, but (IIRC) raised to 28 days by the time of the 1881 reforms.  Some Militia battalions voluntarily increased this further still.

The permanent staff of a typical militia battalion would be 20-40 consisting of warrant officers, senior NCOs and musicians (buglers in a rifle battalion).  The Adjutant would usually be an attached KRRC Regular officer.  I've been hunting for details of the Militia Establishments, but no luck so far.

Edited 6 March , 2023 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

Peter - many thanks for taking the time to post his attestation etc. - appreciated. 

Mark

[PRC]

Hopefully a forum pal with access to Ancestry will take a look at the service medal roll for the Victory Medal & British War Medal awarded to Charles Robert Blissett, (Hertforshire 206158 / Cambridgeshire 345053), to see which Regiment issued his medals.

And if the clerk who completed the Roll actually followed the instructions on the page, it should include all the units served with in a Theatre of War. (Not that there are many to choose from - only the 1/1st Battalion of the Hertfordshire Regiment and the 1/1st Battalion of the Cambridgeshire Regiment served overseas - both in France & Flanders).
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/hertfordshire-regiment/
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/cambridgeshire-regiment/

@Daniel Breed

Switching back to the civil records, I don't subscribe to FindMy Past, so I can only see a very high level amount of detail for the 1921 Census of England & Wales. There is however a Charles Robert Blissett, born Huntingdon c1892, who is recorded living in a household at Brampton, Huntingdon, with a Sarah Blissett, (born Buckden, Huntingdonshire c1893) and a Harold Edgar Blissett, (born Buckden, Huntingdonshire c1920).

The marriage of a Charles R. Blissett to a Sarah Worley was recorded in the Huntingdon District in the second quarter of 1916.  The grooms occupation on the marriage certificate will be interesting either way. Either it will confirm he wasn't yet serving, or at the very least it will tell you he is a soldier and may even go as far as to give rank and unit. It will also give addresses where bride and groom were living prior to the marriage.

The couples first child appears to be the Harold Edgar Blissett, mothers' maiden name Worley, whose birth was registerd in the St Neots District of Huntingdonshire in the third quarter of 1920. There is no match for children registered in England & Wales with this combination of surnames before then. Of course could be all sorts of reasons why a newly married couple would wait four years before having their first child, but one could be if the husband was serving overseas, particularly in a Theatre of War where home leave to the UK was impractical.

With a possible home address from the 1916 marriage certificate, and the 1920 birth certificate, It may also be possible to narrow down where Charles might have been recorded on the Absent Voters Lists (AVL) for 1918 & 1919.  The first big problem in looking for the AVLs is tracking down where a man might have called home at that time, and the second is then to try and find out where the appropriate AVL is held. The full AVL entry for each armed forces absentee usually records service number and unit - though note of caution, the 1918 ones tend to be shown with information provided by other household members. There is a bit more on how the AVL's can help here https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Hope some of that is of interest,
Peter

Edited 7 March , 2023 by PRC
Formatting

[charlie962]

Courtesy Ancestry, Cambridgeshire Roll