5th Kings Royal Rifle Corps

[IPUN]

I am researching 5th King Royal Rifle Corps Peterborough who I believe  at the outset of the war met at a drill hall in Fletton, now part of Peterborough but at the time Huntingdonshire, it being south of the River Nene. I understand that the 5th KRRC were formed of, at least in part. the Hunts Militia. I would be grateful for any information regarding this outfit, history, location for drilling, annual camps etc & as I have at least two ancestors who served with 5 KRRC before joining the regular army, any direction to finding enlistment data etc.

[Steven Broomfield]

At the outbreak of war the 5th KRRC were a Reserve Battalion supplying recruits to the four Regular battalions of the regiment; any connection with Huntingdonshire would, I suspect,  have gone with the reorganisation of reserve forces in the earlier part of the century. Many Reserve Battalions were based on historic Militia units (the militia being a 'back door' way into the army). They were based at the Rifle Depot in Winchester, and on the outbreak of war went to their war station at Sheerness. Pretty sure they wouldn't have had drills in the way a Territoria unit would.

 

Peterborough seems to have had Drill Stations for the Northamptonshire Battery of the 4th East Anglian Field Artillery Brigade and B Squadron of the Northamptonshire Yeomanry.

 

If you've not done so already I suggest you look at the Long, Long Trail site (link at top left of the Home Page here)

[IPUN]

Thanks Steven,

 

Yes I was aware of their being two drill halls in Peterborough Centre but as I posted there was one in Fletton that wouldn't have officially been counted as being in Peterborough & given the potential link between Hunts Militia & 5KRRC, they probably wouldn't have used those that Northamptonshire Battery of the 4th East Anglian Field Artillery Brigade and B Squadron of the Northamptonshire Yeomanry did.

 

Many thanks

 

Ian

[Steven Broomfield]

Looking at Ray Westlake's guide to the Territorial Force in 1914, in which he lists - as far as I know - all Drill Halls, Drill Stations and even drill sites of very small sub-units (such as the dozen or so men from my village who seem to have used the local Working Men's Institute), there is no mention of Fletton near P.boro. There is a Fletton, but near Luton, and hosting a Bedfordshire Regiment dub-unit. What details do you have of the Fletton one you mention? 

 

As I said, however, I would think that any link between the KRRC and the Hunts Militia would be historic, and I am sure that SR battalions were centralised on the Depot. That said, the KRRC, along with their fellow riflemen, The Rifle Brigade, recruited nationally, so men from Northamptonshire/Huntingdonshire will have joined those regiments.

[kenf48]

Sorry to contradict but Westlake lists Fletton as, "Huntingdonshire village just to the South of Peterborough. Here is St Margaret's Church.  Territorials 5th Bedfordshire Regiment"p.145

 

('G' Company Fletton and Yaxley)  According to 'Defending Cambridgeshire' The Drill Hall at Fletton was shared with the Huntingdonshire Cyclists. 

 

As Steven said KRRC had no TF Units associated with them and therefore would not have met in a Drill Hall in Fletton or anywhere else. 

A possibility is that the Drill Hall could have been used for recruitment at the outset of the war.  The usual recruitment avenues were overwhelmed by the number of volunteers, and it may be that recruits were directed to the KRRC Service Battalions if there was a pre-existing association.

 

Local newspapers may help.

[IPUN]

Thanks Ken & Steve,

 

I am really going back to 1896 & 1901 respectively  where 5RRC is mentioned on attestations for both relatives, so some seven years before the Haldane reforms & therefore the creation of Terrier Bn's. I cannot remember where I saw it but I believe that the old drill hall in Fletton was what later became London Brick Company Head Office & then renamed Phorpres House, in Fletton. This was originally a coffee house when first built!

 

So just to get back to 5th KRRC, if they didn't meet or drill etc, what was their point. Surely as can be seen from the attached attestation of one of my great uncles, he was serving with the militia being the 5th KRRC? Ths is what I'm trying to understand so any assistance from you knowledge guys would be helpful.

 

Kind Regards

 

Ian

[Steven Broomfield]

3 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Sorry to contradict but Westlake lists Fletton as, "Huntingdonshire village just to the South of Peterborough. Here is St Margaret's Church.  Territorials 5th Bedfordshire Regiment"p.145

 

 

 

Ah. I was referring to his slightly more basic guide from a few years' previous: the one you reference is hidden in a pile somewhere! I assumed Fletton was a different one on the basis that it recruited to a Bedfordshire battalion based near Luton, which seems a bit of a hike from P'boro. Ho hum.

[Steven Broomfield]

2 hours ago, IPUN said:

 

 

So just to get back to 5th KRRC, if they didn't meet or drill etc, what was their point. Surely as can be seen from the attached attestation of one of my great uncles, he was serving with the militia being the 5th KRRC? Ths is what I'm trying to understand so any assistance from you knowledge guys would be helpful.

 

Kind Regards

 

Ian

 

 

I don't know all the details, but (pre-1908) Militia and (post-1908) SR battalions existed to supply men to the Regulars when needed. I think (emphasis THINK) that enlistment necessitated six months with the Colours with a subsequent requirement to attend regular training. In the event of war, men would be mobilised and posted to the Regular battalions as a ready-made reinforcement.

 

Quite often (and it would seem in this case), men joined the Militia/SR as a try-out to see if they liked army life and subsequently signed on to the real thing. It was a common route for officers to get a commission without going to Sandhurst.

 

You must remember that the Territorials were for Home Service only, so in war the Regulars would have no pool of trained men to call on, other than the men whose service had recently ended and were on the Reserve. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea how or when the Hunts Militia morphed into the 5th KRRC. Sorry!

 

Have you tried the Royal Greenjackets/Rifles museum at Winchester?

[stiletto_33853]

No Idea of KRRC morphs, however the 5th KRRC was a militia battalion for sometime. At the time of the outbreak of the war they were depot based (Winchester) and then left Winchester for the Isle of Sheppey as a training battalion and part of the South Thames Garrison. They remained on the Isle of Sheppey with the 6th KRRC, 5th & 6th RB for the remainder of the war. The Huntingdon Rifles were at sometime with the 5 KRRC Militia but had been long gone in the 1908 reforms.

Mark will probably be able to tell you the full story of the 5th KRRC.

 

Andy

Edited 13 May , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[kenf48]

The previously mentioned “Defending Cambridgeshire” gives the date for the Huntingdon Militia affiliation to the KRRC as 1887 Huntingdon Militia

 

This was a consequence of the Childers Reforms each Regiment was to have two line Battalions and two militia battallions. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childers_Reforms. There is a table on this entry which shows the Militia Battalions affiliated to the KRRC. The Militia was disbanded and transferred to the Special Reserve by the Haldane reforms of 1908.  In that context your query is outside the scope of this forum, as we are concerned with the Great War.

 

There is a picture of the Huntingdon Militia Barracks in the link.  

 

As Steven suggests the museum may be able to help.

[MBrockway]

The Huntingdonshire Rifles were attached to the KRRC in 1881 as 5th Bn., KRRC, The Huntingdonshire Militia (Rifles).

 

In 1908 under the Haldane Reforms, all the KRRC's militia battalions were converted to Special Reserve battalions.

 

5th KRRC became 5th (Reserve) Bn., KRRC.

 

6th KRRC, The Royal Denbigh & Flint Militia (Rifles), had been disbanded in 1889.

 

7th KRRC, The 2nd or Edmonton Royal Rifle Regiment of Middlesex Militia, became 6th (Reserve) Bn., KRRC.

 

8th (Carlow Rifles) and 9th (North Cork Rifles) were both disbanded on 31 Jul 1908.

 

5th and 6th KRRC were both based at Woolwich from 1908 moving to Winchester just before the War.

 

Mark

 

[MBrockway]

Ken - I'll check, but I think that Defending Cambridgeshire link has put 1887 as a typo for the Childers Reforms, which took place in 1881, not 1887.

 

My 1881 date is from the Militia Appendix of The KRRC ... A Brief History, published by the Regiment, but I have seen errors there before.

[kenf48]

1 minute ago, MBrockway said:

Ken - I'll check, but I think that Defending Cambridgeshire link has put 1887 as a typo for the Childers Reforms, which took place in 1881, not 1887.

 

My 1881 date is from the Militia Appendix of The KRRC ... A Brief History, published by the Regiment, but I have seen errors there before.

 

Indeed the reforms dated from 1881, on or after July 1st I don’t know but assumed the affiliation took place later, six years seems quite a bit later, but as you say it may be a typo.  

 

 

Ken

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

12 hours ago, IPUN said:

I am researching 5th King Royal Rifle Corps Peterborough who I believe  at the outset of the war met at a drill hall in Fletton,

 

5/KRRC were in Woolwich from 1908, moving to Winchester ~Sep 1913 and then, at the outbreak of War, to Sheerness.

 

It looks like Rifle Volunteers took over the hall in Fletton, but they were not connected to the KRRC in any way.  A quick skim of Westlake suggests these volunteers were 4th (Hunts) Volunteer Bn., Bedfordshire Regt, raised 04 Dec 1900, becoming 5/Beds on creation of the Territorial Force in 1908.

 

Were your relations in the London area, or in East Anglia?

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

Apologies - I've now looked properly at the Attestation higher up and see that your relative enlisted as a Regular into the Lincs in 1901 after militia service in 5/KRRC, who were indeed at that time HQ-ed in Huntingdon.  I can however find no record of the Militia battalion using the Fletton drill hall.

[MBrockway]

Army Order AO 109 of 1907, covering the transformation of the Militia into the Special Reserve, Para.21 ...

 

 

Thus, 5/, 6/KRRC and 5/, 6/RB came to be stationed at Woolwich.

 

Not to bad for 6/KRRC who had been at Barnet, but rough on the Huntingdon Rifles.

 

Bear in mind though, that Special Reserve service was an initial full-time training period of six months and then 15 days Annual Training plus 6 days of musketry.  This commitment was generally honoured by attending annual camps.  It would not be impossible for men from Hunts. to get to Annual Camp even if their battalion was now in Woolwich and I believe the musketry obligation could be shot at any army/militia range.

 

AO 109 seems to allow a militiaman to enlist into a Special Reserve battalion in his current District, even if this is attached to a different regiment.  I suspect most of the Hunts. Rifles militiamen are likely to have switched to a more local SR battalion in e.g. Bedfords, Cambs., Suffolk regiments.

 

There is very little detail on the militia and volunteers in the KRRC literature I'm afraid.

 

Mark

 

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, MBrockway said:

 

5/KRRC were in Woolwich from 1908, moving to Winchester ~Sep 1913 and then, at the outbreak of War, to Sheerness.

 

 

Now found the exact dates of the SR battalion moves in my notes ...

 

Quote

 

5/KRRC & 5/RB moved to Winchester from Woolwich on 31 Jul 1913
6/KRRC & 6/RB  "    "      "        "      "    on 08 Sep 1913

 

 

 

 

[IPUN]

Hi Steven,

 

Yes the try before you buy idea I've heard before & it makes sense. I'll try the Rifles museum, good call.

 

Hi Ken,

 

In that context your query is outside the scope of this forum, as we are concerned with the Great War......Yes I was being a little cheeky but I imagined that there may well be some knowledge about the period on here..

 

Hi Mark,

 

Thanks for the information, very interesting

 

Hi Andy,

 

Thank You 

 

KInd Regards

 

Ian

 

Quote

 

 

[MBrockway]

18 hours ago, kenf48 said:

This was a consequence of the Childers Reforms each Regiment was to have two line Battalions and two militia battalions. 

 

 

Just to clarify for Ian's sake - being much larger than the County regiments and recruiting nationally, the KRRC and Rifle Brigade were each allocated FOUR Regular battalions.

 

As regards militia, under Childers, the KRRC were allocated two Irish militia battalions and three British, the Rifle Brigade three Irish and two British.  By Haldane in 1908, this had dwindled to two each, following various mergers and disbandments.

 

Also Andy may object to the RB being called a "Line regiment" 

 

see ...

[IPUN]

Thanks Mark,

 

So it would seem that in 1896 & 1901 both of my ancestors would have been serving with the 5th KRRC Militia (given this was before the Haldane reforms of 1908 with the two County Battalions & a Terrier BN where applicable) which would have necessitated an initial 6 months training at a Depot Location, followed by an annual camp as per Terriers & upkeep of musketry (marksmanship)? When they found that it was to their liking they would then attest & join a regular battalion? 

 

Good grief...Now I've read Fred Clark's Service Record properly (AKA RTFM)  It states Embodied Militia Service in 3KRR! from 2.5.00 to 4.12.00  viz 236 days allowed to reckon to (9b?) pay & pension under authority of army order (is that 79?) of 1900 - Dated 9.9.01...So, he did 236 days until 4th Dec 1900 & then attested Lincolns 3rd Sept....as is usually the case, one answer sparks another question...

 

Dear all.....so why the gap?

 

Sorry Ken,

 

Not in scope but really interesting. These things though did lead up to the Great War & actually Fred left the Lincolns having served his 12 with the colours entirely, before leaving in 1913 only to sign up to the Northaptons August 1914  being KIA 29th January 1915 at Cuinchy Pas de Calais. One of five brothers to fight, two severely wounded (Aubers Ridge 1915 & Loos same year) the other two KIA (Hulluch & Etaples died of woulds respectively) so all of this does link to that terrible conflict. 

 

Kind Regards

 

Ian

[MBrockway]

3/KRRC had always been a Regular battalion and was never militia.

 

Originally raised in 1756, it came and went three times before being re-founded in 1855.  It survived in the Regiment until 1923 when 3/KRRC and 4/KRRC were disbanded.

 

They were in South Africa in 1900.

 

I reckon this all points to an error by the Lincs Regt records clerk.  In most of the County line regiments 1st and 2nd battalions would be the Regulars and 3rd battalion would be the first of the militia battalions.  It was thus in the Lincolnshire Regt.

 

As above though, the KRRC and RB (and several of the very large line regiments - e.g.Middlesex, KLR, etc.) had FOUR Regular battalions, so the militia battalions were numbered 5th onwards.

 

Mark

Edited 14 May , 2020 by MBrockway

[IPUN]

Hi Mark,

 

OK so 3rd BN was regular 5th was Militia? Page one, attestation states 5th KRRC The Militia as does Charles Clark 1896 (please see attached), looks as though the Adjutant at Lincoln Depot could have made a mistake, however, the record clearly states that 236 days allowed to reckon towards (9b?) pay & pension, so that would mean he actually served that amount of time in service doesn't it ahead of joining the Lincolns? Otherwise, why are the Army paying him & providing a pension?

 

Both Fred & Charles were in the same parish of the same city so 5 KRRC  & Militia are the common denominators

 

Kind Regards

 

Ian

[MBrockway]

5/KRRC (aka the Huntingdon Rifles militia) were mobilised during the Second Boer War.  This was primarily to serve on garrison duty in Britain and Ireland in place of Regulars, who thus freed up could be released to serve in South Africa.

 

A number of militiamen also went out to South Africa individually and served in Regular battalions.

 

A few militia battalions volunteered to go out complete.  For example,, 9/KRRC (the North Cork Rifles militia), who were in theatre 1900-1901, primarily defending the Lines of Communications: an important job given the Boers guerilla tactics.

 

The militia battalions who went out complete will have a variant of the Battle Honour South Africa 1899-1902 (dates depending on their exact service).  Members of such battalions who served in theatre would also have Boer War campaign medals, as would also any militiaman who went out individually.

 

I have no information on where 5/KRRC actually served while embodied, but I do NOT think they went out of the UK.

 

While embodied, the militiamen effectively became full-time soldiers, hence his entitlement to Pay & Pension etc.

 

Thus it seems that Fred was already in the militia (5th KRRC, NOT 3rd KRRC), was embodied on 02 May 1900 and served (probably) in some UK garrison capacity until they were disembodied on 04 Dec 1900.  He then remained, now disembodied, in the militia with his annual obligations and militia pay (but not his Army pay and pension) continuing until he enlisted as a Regular in the Lincs on 03 Sep 1901.  He would only have received full army pay during the 3-4 weeks of annual camp.

 

You will likely find 03 Sep 1901 is very close to his 19th birthday.

 

236 days from 02 May to 04 Dec 1900 is actually 216 days, so one or other of the dates/duration is wrong.  Further evidence the Lincs Records Office clerk was not perfect.

 

I'll do some checking for Boer War service if I get time today, but as a low priority.  If Fred had served individually in S Africa, I would expect to see it mentioned in the same place, and elsewhere in his Service Record you'd see Boer War campaign medals.

 

Mark

Edited 15 May , 2020 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

It might be worth your while investigating the Militia Attestation Papers for the KRRC held at Kew and available via Find My Past (I cannot as I've no fmp subscription)

 

See here:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C154478

[IPUN]

Hi Mark,

 

Sorry for the delay in getting back with you....furlough thus being ended so back ti our business.

 

Well I would say that you've pretty much nailed it Sir...Thank You Very Much!!! The clerk that entered the detail to Fred's Service Record did him a favour with the extra days pay but caused some misunderstanding for us today. 

 

Fred's birth certificate is actually 7th March 1882 yet on his attestation he is shown as being 19 yrs 0 months...strange that he wouldn't know his own birthday or dodgy form filling again, but I know that the 19yrs old should have been a requirement for overseas service (somewhat more adhered to at the time of his enlisting than in many cases 13 years later).  I would imagine that he wasn't abroad with the 3rd KRRC so concur that this would have been a pre-tech typo! As you state it would have been on his record plus he wasn't 19yrs of age.  

 

I'll have a look for the attestation records by going to fmp. Can you access by regiment do you know?

 

I've also asked the Rifles Museum for any details on deployments by regiment to see what they have. They've been quite helpful this far.

 

Thanks once again

 

Ian