TANK CORPS 50th ANNIVERSARY DINNER: SEPTEMBER 1966

[INW]

35 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

...and better enhancement of the photo of the name badge.

These guys could do it, but they're a bit pricey:

Link

 

We could always ask Boris if he would have a word with Donald; proposing a useful training exercise / favour.

 

INW

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Gareth Davies said:

 

What was that minimum length of service as an OR? Looking at Brooks' MIC I don't see much service as an OR. I don't think it is Brooks.

I’ve just looked into this in more detail Gareth and have an apology to make to you.  The pre-1930 Army Long Service and Good Conduct medal could not be worn by officers, regardless if they had earned one in prior service in the ranks.
 

In 1930 a generic medal for Long Service and Good Conduct (Military) was introduced but fitted with different ribbons for each of the three armed services.  Initially the qualifying period for award remained 18-years, but in 1947 it was made permissible for officers commissioned from the ranks to wear the medal providing they qualified prior to commissioning. In a final change the qualifying period was reduced from 18 to 15 years in 1977.

 

The upshot of all that in regard to the photos under discussion is that the man with a LSGC clearly on display cannot have been an officer.

Edited 16 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Gareth Davies]

Thanks. I think that rules out Brooks?

 

The rules changed again in 2014 and as a result I have the LS&GC plus a clasp.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

Thanks. I think that rules out Brooks?

 

The rules changed again in 2014 and as a result I have the LS&GC plus a clasp.

Yes, I think it rules out Brooks.

 

I’ve just read that the qualifying period for a clasp was reduced from 15 years to 10 years in 2016.

Edited 16 May , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Bordercollie]

@INW here is a possibility for you.  As I said to you before I wouldn't rule out the IGSM 1908-35 being the third medal in the group. The ribbon colours probably come up much the same as the GSM 1918-62 in monochrome.  Palmer T. is on your guest list and he was awarded the IGSM 1908 with North West Frontier 1930-31 Clasp as a sergeant.  I have only quickly scanned the 20 pages of the RTC medal roll for SNCOs who match your guest list so I can't rule out the possiblity of other matches among junior ranks. However Palmer seems to match what we can deduce about the name badge. He was awarded the LS&GC in 1938 as a Colour Sergeant. I have not found any evidence that he was mentioned in despatches in WW2 but that might be more a reflection of my competence than his lack of that distinction. 

 

Medal Roll image courtesy of National Archives (WO 100/496) generously provided without charge.

[INW]

Thanks BC

 

I will follow T Palmer up: is this the right medal card ? (downloaded from Ancestry). I am slowly going through the list I have got through to surnames starting A - F with no other clear candidates. I am just using war forces records, ancestry medal cards and find my past. I had no idea about the medal rolls from the TNA. I have found some interesting tank men, one who was a tank wireless / radio operator.

 

INW

 

[Bordercollie]

No I don't think it is the same man as Sgt T Palmer in 1930-31 because the man who was in the BEF in 1914 has more initials.  If it was the same man it looks as though it would rule out T Palmer as the man in your photograph. The man in the BEF in 1914 would have been entitled to the 1914 Star which the man in the photograph isn't wearing.  The problem with linking Sgt T Palmer in 1930-31 back to his service in WW1 is that we only have his post-war army number not the regimental number that he would have served under in WW1.

[johntaylor]

The Royal Tank Corps attestation records show that the Tom Palmer who was awarded the India GSM (no. 7870472) joined in 1919 aged 18 - while this doesn't completely rule him out for Great War service, there is no mention of this so unfortunately I think he's the wrong man.

 

Incidentally Thomas Charles Herbert Palmer also appears in the same records and it says he was awarded the Military Medal, so we can also rule him out as there's no sign of this in the photo - and as you say, he should also have the 1914-15 Star.

 

Sorry to pour cold water, but please keep searching - we'll get there in the end!

 

John

 

Edited 17 May , 2020 by johntaylor

[tanks3]

Hi All

 

Not sure if this will be of any use or may just muddy the water.  However, here are copy extracts from the menu on the day.

 

Tanks3

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

34 minutes ago, tanks3 said:

Hi All

 

Not sure if this will be of any use or may just muddy the water.  However, here are copy extracts from the menu on the day.

 

Tanks3

Thanks Tanks3,

But I think that INW posted that back in Post #32.

[INW]

RSM Sydney James George Regler MBE

 

I am working through the medal records of the men at the 50th Dinner. I think I can dismiss this soldier as a 'fourth man in the photograph' candidate but I think it is certainly worth drawing attention to him. He went to India between the wars and served the whole of the Second World War. His medals were described in an auction sale catalogue in 2012.

 

images 1 & 2: Find My Past: tank corps records

image 3: Ancestry: medal card

images 4 & 5: Bosleys Military Auctioneers and Valuers December 2012

 

 

 

 

         

Unfortunately the auction catalogue PDF is corrupted and so I cannot fully understand the list of medals. Help would be welcome!

 

INW

 

[Bordercollie]

I think you can safely rule out Sydney Regler as your fourth man.  From the auction catalogue it appears that Major Regler had an MBE, not worn by the fourth man.  He had the same (or similar) WW1 medals as the fourth man.  Between the wars he earned the India General Service Medal 1908 but the fourth man appears to have two medals from that period.  In WW2 Major Regler earned the Defence Medal and the 1939-45 War Medal but no overseas campaign stars, whereas the fourth man had three campaign stars.  Major Regler was awarded the LS&GC like the fourth man but he also had the Meritorious Service Medal which was not worn by the fourth man. 

[ghchurcher]

On 11/05/2020 at 21:42, INW said:

THE FOURTH MAN'S MEDALS

Border Collie has had another look at the scan of the Medal's and I summarise his cerebral detective work below.

 

1    WWI British War Medal

2    WWI Victory Medal

3   General Service Medal 1918 - 1962

4   India General Service Medal 1936 -39

5    WWII 1939 - 1945 Star    Note: as worn by Captain Sir Tom

6    WWII Africa Star

7    WWII France and Germany Star 

8    WWII Defence Medal

9    WWII War Medal with oak leaf for 'Mentioned In Dispatches    Note: as worn by Captain Sir Tom (no MID but world wide fame).

10  Long Service and Good Conduct issued 1944 - 1959

 

INW

 

Medal 3 is the IGS08, not GSM18

Medal 4 is the IGS36 as stated

Rest also as stated though from the B&W photo Medal 7 could just a likely be the Italy Star as F&G Star.

Edited 28 May , 2020 by ghchurcher

[ghchurcher]

On 07/05/2020 at 21:13, INW said:

My family have this photo of my grandfather at the dinner held in London fifty years after the first tank battle.

The names of four men can be identified from their badges with a magnifying glass.

The fourth (from my left) man's badge is bleached out; perhaps it reflected back the flash. He has a fabulous set of medals. Can any 'tank medal expert' identify the medals and is there any chance of identifying him from his medals?

The other men are, left to right: 
L.H.Boughton
M.H.Chew
F.J.McGuirk
Unknown; his badge cannot be read but his medals must be unique. He must have also served in WW2.
G.H.Wells (my grandfather)
The group may have been put together for the photograph because they were from the midlands, around Birmingham.

Does anyone have any other photos of the event?

 

Regards

 

INW

 

That really is a super photo, and great to see your grandfather wearing his MMGS cap badge on his lapel.

I wouldn't say that the 2 face photos for the chap 4th left was the same guy. The ears look different and that is usually one of the constants for face recognition.

I may have the Bosley catalogue somewhere, I could take a look but as stated the group doesn't look to relate on other points - so probably not a lot to gain from it.

His IGS08 if Afghan or Waziristan will most likely be on his WW1 MIC, but not the IGS36. With that inter war combo he should be on the RTC Register. Its a nice group of medals with long service. He cannot have been far off a clasp to his LS&GCM. 

 

 

Edited 28 May , 2020 by ghchurcher

[INW]

GHC

 

Thanks for your help with this.

 

I am slowly creating a spreadsheet of all attendees of the anniversary dinner. It isn't an easy task, not least because there are typo errors in the two lists. Some of the more common surnames throw up many members of the tank corps. I am really enjoying the exercise and learning a great deal about Tank Corps men and their medals.

 

Your notes lead me to several questions:

• When you refer to the RTC register please could you confirm if that is the Royal Tank Corps attestation record that appears on Find My Past? 
• Is 'Find My Past' the best way of searching through the RTC register ?
• When you refer to a IGS08 does this mean that he could have been in the army well before 1914?
• What is the best book for a Medals novice to buy?
• Is there any way of understanding the medal roll references on the Medal Cards held by Ancestry?

One thing that does surprise me is that no more photos take at the event have appeared as yet.

 

INW

[INW]

VETERANS DINNER 15 Sept 1966: FURTHER RESEARCH

Please see the attached spreadsheet which lists further details of the men attending the dinner.

Some very interesting characters did attend the dinner.

For example: RC COONEY was interviewed by the Imperial War Museum and his six audio tapes are fascinating.

Any further information would be gratefully received.

 

INW

 

TANK DINNER 15 sept 1966.pdf

Edited 14 June , 2020 by INW
missing word

[david murdoch]

I'll cross check my MMGS spreadsheet. There are some in the sub 3000 numbers I'm resesrching, but also some in the 200*** renumbered block. Not all have a reference to thier previous MMGS/MGC numbers in the rolls or MICs

[dgibson150]

Hi

I think that F Tucker may be Frank Tucker who was awarded the MC while with 14 Battalion.

 

Details as follows:

 

Frank TUCKER MC

MIC shows him as a Lieutenant in the 1st/5th West Yorkshire Regiment, landed Boulogne 15 April 1915, and then Major in Tank Corps. Address on MIC is Bovington Camp crossed out and 8 Lancaster Road, Harrogate inserted.

Awarded MC for actions on 8 and 9 August for the 14th Battalion Tank Corps. He was OIC B Company 14th Bn.

14th Bn War History includes

"On 2 November 1917 a Special Company under Major Tucker was hastily formed to proceed to Ireland with a view to disposing of the threatened rebellion. This Company were mobilised and and were ready to move in something like 12 hours."

In December 1917 "Major Tucker together with his Special Company rejoined the Battalion from Ireland and the strength of the Battalion was completed by the arrival of some 137 Other Ranks from Scottish Depots."

War History records him transferring to 1st Bn Tank Corps on 31 August 1918. 9th Bn War Diary shows transfer from 1st Bn to 9th Bn as second in command on ?31 March 1919.

 

T. Capt. (A/Major) TUCKER, FRANK. 14th Battn. Awarded

M.C.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty in the advance

beyond Villers-Bretonneux on August 8. This officer followed

closely behind his company to their final objective on the Red Line.

He kept frequent personal touch with his tanks and the infantry

brigades and battalions with whom he was operating, frequently

under fire of different descriptions, and was consequently able to

re-direct the sections as the situation demanded.

On August 9 he acted in a similar manner in the neighbourhood

of Vrely and Warvillers, incidentally making a very daring personal

reconnaissance towards Rouvroy to clear up the situation in this

quarter, in which he narrowly escaped death or capture, as the

village proved to be in enemy hands at the time. Throughout

he displayed very high soldierly qualities as a leader, and set the

highest example to his men.

 

I can't find him on the 1939 Register or link him to 2 Battalion, so he might not be the one.

 

David

[INW]

VETERANS DINNER 15 Sept 1966: FURTHER RESEARCH
Simply using Google I have spent a few interesting hours reading up about several of the 'highly decorated' men who attended the event.

The following all have fascinating histories and can be eliminated from the search for the 'fourth man' in the photograph posted above.
Those listed below appear in the Royal Tank Regiment 'Army List' for 1939/40.
Lt Col E F Ledward
Majors: T R Price DSO MC, N M Dillon MC, R M Jerram DSO MC, E J O'Conor OBE MC, HBM Groves MC, RC Cooney OBE, & G H Brooks.
Quarter Masters: J Gully MM, J Noel DCM, LE Gibbs MBE
Retired Officer Re Employed: Major F Tucker MC

 

INW

[delta]

Ian, 

Sorry to have been off net.

There are another handful of FTC which I will confirm shortly.

[delta]

40274 Gnr John Bernard Callaghan of C Company - burned in tank fire on 11 Sep C17 Campania at the Loop; evacuated to Uk and, after recovery joined H Battalion - driver for Hassell at Cambrai and later awarded DCM for service as driver in 8th Battalion. Died Glossop in 1970 aged 78.  

 

2724 CSM Joseph Freitas Hackett - CSM C Coy then first RSM C Battalion, commissioned 17 May 1917 Northumberland Fusiliers but commanded a tank section in 1919. 

 

 2883 LCpl Abram “Clino” Wolfman - A Company 

[INW]

Thanks Delta

 

I will read up about them your book. With regards to the 'fourth man in' the photo Callagan's DSM rules him out.

I will investigate Hackett further he may have served beyond 1919.

DId Wolfman get the 'Clino' nickname because that was his favourite type of Motor Bike in the MMGS? I think his service record is available On Find My Past.

 

I will double check my spreadsheet with the index of people in your First Tank Crews book.

 

INW

 

[GAAsh]

On 24/05/2020 at 22:51, INW said:

RSM Sydney James George Regler MBE

 

I am working through the medal records of the men at the 50th Dinner. I think I can dismiss this soldier as a 'fourth man in the photograph' candidate but I think it is certainly worth drawing attention to him. He went to India between the wars and served the whole of the Second World War. His medals were described in an auction sale catalogue in 2012.

 

images 1 & 2: Find My Past: tank corps records

image 3: Ancestry: medal card

images 4 & 5: Bosleys Military Auctioneers and Valuers December 2012

 

 

 

 

         

Unfortunately the auction catalogue PDF is corrupted and so I cannot fully understand the list of medals. Help would be welcome!

 

INW

 

Please forgive me for arriving so late to the party, or even if anyone is still listening after almost two years. I am the grandson of Sydney James George Regler, I was brought here on a random google search on his name appertaining to military medals.

In a nutshell myself and my son, who is a serving officer in the RAF, were discussing my maternal grandfather, and wondering what had happened to his medals. I'm not sure if he even had them in his possession when he died back in 1983, because his wife allegedly had a penchant for selling things on the QT to top up the family coffers, or it could be that my mum (his daughter) disposed of them when clearing out his home after the death of both him and his wife within months of each other. My mum and dad are no longer around to ask.

I see in a previous post that both his set of medals, and those of my late uncle Rob (his son), appeared for sale some 10 years ago, and by a strange (almost uncanny) coincidence they have again appeared for sale elsewhere on the internet. I have messaged the seller to enquire as to the possibility of purchasing them to bring them back into the family fold, which would be a fantastic coup, and my son thinks that he may even be able to wear some of them to military functions. I had no idea, until tonight, that he was awarded the MBE.

Just to confirm also, that he doesn't appear in the photograph in page one of this thread, so is quite definitely not your 4th man.

I hope that this addendum is of interest to the original contributors, or anyone who stumbles upon this thread

[tankengine888]

43 minutes ago, GAAsh said:

Please forgive me for arriving so late to the party, or even if anyone is still listening after almost two years. I am the grandson of Sydney James George Regler, I was brought here on a random google search on his name appertaining to military medals.

In a nutshell myself and my son, who is a serving officer in the RAF, were discussing my maternal grandfather, and wondering what had happened to his medals. I'm not sure if he even had them in his possession when he died back in 1983, because his wife allegedly had a penchant for selling things on the QT to top up the family coffers, or it could be that my mum (his daughter) disposed of them when clearing out his home after the death of both him and his wife within months of each other. My mum and dad are no longer around to ask.

I see in a previous post that both his set of medals, and those of my late uncle Rob (his son), appeared for sale some 10 years ago, and by a strange (almost uncanny) coincidence they have again appeared for sale elsewhere on the internet. I have messaged the seller to enquire as to the possibility of purchasing them to bring them back into the family fold, which would be a fantastic coup, and my son thinks that he may even be able to wear some of them to military functions. I had no idea, until tonight, that he was awarded the MBE.

Just to confirm also, that he doesn't appear in the photograph in page one of this thread, so is quite definitely not your 4th man.

I hope that this addendum is of interest to the original contributors, or anyone who stumbles upon this thread

Pretty sure your son can’t wear the medals except for on Remembrance Day… but I will probably stand corrected as a mere high schooler speaking. I take it the photo of the 4th man and Mr Regler do not match? Also, I think his medals must’ve been sold with his estate upon death, or just when the metal crisis of around 1970s I believe, don’t quote me on that. I’m quite interested in this Regler character, do you have anything else on him?

My regards.

 

edit: Was “Rob” Robert Sydney James Regler? Died in Burma 12th July 1943?

Edited 8 February , 2022 by tankengine888

[GAAsh]

7 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Pretty sure your son can’t wear the medals except for on Remembrance Day… but I will probably stand corrected as a mere high schooler speaking. I take it the photo of the 4th man and Mr Regler do not match? Also, I think his medals must’ve been sold with his estate upon death, or just when the metal crisis of around 1970s I believe, don’t quote me on that. I’m quite interested in this Regler character, do you have anything else on him?

My regards.

 

edit: Was “Rob” Robert Sydney James Regler? Died in Burma 12th July 1943?

Thank you for replying so quickly.

We were quite surprised to have found so much information and research on my grandfather, and certainly to find his medals for sale just hours after discussing what had happened to them, was quite a shock. As to the wearing of them, It may have been remembrance day that my son was thinking of, he realises that he can't wear the MBE at any time. This is all conjecture at this point, because I've yet to see if I  can buy them, as the asking price is quite hefty.

It's entirely possible that his medals were disposed of at the time of his death, my mum, his daughter, handled the selling of the property etc, but I'm almost ashamed to admit that I had no interest in helping out at the time, running a business, girlfriends, and cars took priority back then! My information on him is sketchy, he lived in Salisbury, Wiltshire, when I was a child, and visits were infrequent. My mum persuaded him(them) to move closer to us in Ruislip, Middlesex, in 1979. Downsizing from a 3 storey house to a 2 bedroom maisonette required a lot of disposing of furniture, etc.

He was a military man through and through, in his later years when I knew him best, he was affectionately known as "The Colonel" in the local shops where me and my dad had our businesses, he would appear, most days, as his house was only a few hundred yards away. He had a wicked sense of humour, and would deliver his anecdotes with a deadpan expression. He was always respectful, and demanded respect which he always received. He never wore glasses, even up until the time of his death.

I don't know if this is the stuff that you were interested in, so I won't witter on any more, but I do have a few old pictures of him which I can post up here, and even one or two of uncle Rob (Robert Sydney Regler) who was mum's older brother, and died as a POW (working on the railway of death in Burma) He was a Royal Engineer.