15th Motor Machine Gun Battery India 1918 and 1919

[mcassell]

I have had a long term interest in lectins like abrin as I have used them extensively in my research. The deaths of Captain FC Briggs (Dyer's adjutant) and Lieutenant Colonel CC Tee ( I have traced 3 other IA officers with same cod) both happened after abdominal surgery for perforated bowel and subsequent death thru kidney failure. Both were attributed to 'ground-glass' poisoning. As noted previously, ground glass is corruption of graine d'eglise, French name for the Rosary Pea plant whose seeds contain abrin and, as name suggests, were used in making rosaries! The seeds themselves are not dangerous but opening them by drilling, eg for rosaries, exposes the abrin. Lieutenant Jeffries died following op for perforated bowel, as others mentioned above. His personal effects list a rosary. QED. Hope this is adequate 'elaboration' tho I have much more on this issue.

[david murdoch]

4 hours ago, mcassell said:

I have had a long term interest in lectins like abrin as I have used them extensively in my research. The deaths of Captain FC Briggs (Dyer's adjutant) and Lieutenant Colonel CC Tee ( I have traced 3 other IA officers with same cod) both happened after abdominal surgery for perforated bowel and subsequent death thru kidney failure. Both were attributed to 'ground-glass' poisoning. As noted previously, ground glass is corruption of graine d'eglise, French name for the Rosary Pea plant whose seeds contain abrin and, as name suggests, were used in making rosaries! The seeds themselves are not dangerous but opening them by drilling, eg for rosaries, exposes the abrin. Lieutenant Jeffries died following op for perforated bowel, as others mentioned above. His personal effects list a rosary. QED. Hope this is adequate 'elaboration' tho I have much more on this issue.

Yes Thanks for that. I did some further looking up on the Rosary Pea - just makes you wonder how they came to ingest accidentally, unless he was making himself a rosary, drilling the seeds and got on his hands.

[david murdoch]

On 05/01/2022 at 11:27, mcassell said:

I am amazed I missed this thread! Attached is a photograph of Lieutenant Philip Jeffries who died at Peshawar 3 December 1918 with 15 MMG Battery. His cause of death is listed as kidney failure but I believe he accidentally poisoned himself with 'ground glass'. Ground glass is a corruption of grain d'eglise , the French word for the Indian Rosary Pea plant. The seeds of this plant contain a highly toxic chemical (abrin) and has been used in India for surreptitiously killing cattle and in homicides (cf. Captain FC Briggs, General Rex Dyer's adjutant). Abrin causes intestinal perforations, peritonitis and eventually kidney failure. Significantly, Jeffries, a Catholic, has a rosary listed amongst his personal effects.

In addition to his medals, I have a letter - on 15 MMG letterhead - from him to his parish priest a few days before his death (also attached). It expresses his ardent desire to leave India as soon as possible, which he never did.

 

Interesting seeing the headed notepaper and MMG badge which must have been printed in 1918 once they got to India. Certainly still thought of themselves as Motor Machine Gun Service. This seems to be pretty much across the board as you see most of the war diaries still using MMGS stamps even in 1919-1920, and various photos referring to MMGS rather than MGC (Motors).

[pjwmacro]

On 08/01/2022 at 15:55, mcassell said:

Lieutenant Jeffries died following op for perforated bowel, as others mentioned above. His personal effects list a rosary. QED. Hope this is adequate 'elaboration' tho I have much more on this issue.

Thank you for the elaboration. Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

Just updated the first post of this thread to add Lt Arthur Parr.  Having rechecked the IGSM roll for officers it confirms Capt Anderson as still being with 15 MMGB and Lt A Parr being the only other officer listed. Of course other officers could have not claimed their medal, or the battery might by that stage have just had the OC and a single other officer (and used Sjt section commanders).

Attempting to build a tree on ancestry for Lt Arthur Parr. He was originally a private, number 3127, in the Royal Fusiliers, and commissioned 4th August 1916. But I cannot, at present, find either a soldiers service record or, in TNS discovery, his officers service record (he may have continued serving post 1920?) (I don't think he is Arthur Reginald Parr - but I could be wrong on that, without physically checking the records).

 

Regards, Paul

Edited 10 January , 2022 by pjwmacro

[PRC]

3 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Attempting to build a tree on ancestry for Lt Arthur Parr. He was originally a private, number 3127, in the Royal Fusiliers, and commissioned 4th August 1916. But I cannot, at present, find either a soldiers service record or, in TNS discovery, his officers service record (he may have continued serving post 1920?) (I don't think he is Arthur Reginald Parr - but I could be wrong on that, without physically checking the records).

The PS prefix on his Royal Fusiliers service numbers would relate to the Public Schools Battalions. There were four of them raised on the 11th September 1914. Assuming roughly 1000 other ranks to a Battalion, that they shared a common number range and it started from PS/1 then that would place him in the 4th Public Schools Battalion, subsequently the 21st (Service) Battalion (4th Public Schools). All four Public Schools Battalions landed in France in November 1915 – the MiC for Arthur Parr shows his first date of entry into a Theatre of War as the 14th November 1915.

Allowing for an 18 week Officer Training course would put him back in the UK in April 1916. His MiC shows him commissioned on the 4th August 1916. Bear in mind that depending on the practice at the relevant records office, this might be the date he was released from his enlistment in order to take up his commission on the following day.

(Arthur Reginald Parr was commissioned into the R.G.A from an Officer Cadet Unit with effect from the 10th August 1916. Supplement to the London Gazette, 19 August 1916, page 8255. He would be on the Special Reserve of Officers – close but not close enough).

Allowing a couple of months for the information to filter through from the London Gazette, I then checked the November 1916 British Army List. The index gave an A. Parr in column 1572a, an A.R. Parr in column 654f and an A.W.C.V. Parr in multiple columns – 191g, 1554b and 2678b.

2nd Lieutenant A.W.C.V. Parr, on the establishment of the Regular Army Battalions of The Rifle Brigade was attached to the Flying Corps. His seniority, and therefore because of his rank, his commissioning date, was the 11th August 1915.

2nd Lieutenant A. Parr, with seniority from the 5th August 1916, appears in column 1572b under the heading Machine Gun Corps (Infantry). I’m not sure what the hieroglyph before his name means. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104654267

No obvious long papers in the National Archive catalogue. They would have been very likely to have included the paperwork from his time in the ranks.

The contact address for his medal application in 1926 is given as “The Lindleys”, Davyhulme, Urmston, Near Manchester.

The local Lancashire press do reference a “Lieutenant Arthur Parr” in 1916, but this starts from about May so probably another man.

A check of whats freely available for an Arthur Parr in the Urmston area on the 1921 Census of England & Wales brought up these nearby returns.

Image courtesy FindMyPast

Checking them out on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, the Barton-upon Irwell man was a Yarn Salesman living in the household of his parents at 92 Barton Road, Barton upon Irwell. I suspect his father Nathan Parr, (aged 63, born Eccles, Lancashire), is his employer as he is recorded as a Grey Cloth Merchant. Two of his other sons also look to be working in the family business -  John Taylor Parr was a Greycloth Salesman, while Edmund Taylor Parr was a Bookkeeper. Nathan would pass away on the 2nd May 1930, with his wife Louisa predeceasing him earlier in the year on the 6th January. Both appear in the 1930 Probate Calendar with a home address of Crofts Bank House, Davyhulme, Lancashire. Nathan sorted out his wife’s probate, while John Taylor Parr and Simon Mellow Parr, (anither son on the 1911 Census), sorted out their fathers affairs. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Parr&yearOfDeath=1930#calendar

The Pendleton born man was living in the household of his widowed mother Mary Alice Parr at 24 Delamere Avenue, Pendleton, Salford. He worked as a Grocers Clerk but of his two other unmarried siblings still living at home, sister Alice was a School Teacher, and brother Charles Edmund was an Engineers Draughtsman.

As the Public Schools Battalions seem to have also recruited Grammar School Boys, I don’t think either Arthur Parr can necessarily be ruled out.

Of course the whole thing could be a red herring – Arthur Parr may have had no connection to the Manchester area in the earlier part of his life, or he may still have been serving overseas at the time of 1921 Census. While he might still appear in connection with where he was stationed, the link to Urmston and the Manchester area may not be obvious.

Cheers,
Peter

[pjwmacro]

18 hours ago, PRC said:

Of course the whole thing could be a red herring – Arthur Parr may have had no connection to the Manchester area in the earlier part of his life, or he may still have been serving overseas at the time of 1921 Census. While he might still appear in connection with where he was stationed, the link to Urmston and the Manchester area may not be obvious.

Hi Peter

Many thanks for taking the time to do this. I need abit of time to go through this properly - as you say Manchester may be a red herring - but I too was drawn to it.  And he could too have continued serving after 1920 and therefore only have records held at APC Glasgow. But my gut feeling is that the MGC(I) man is our fellow, and he is possibly the Pendelton Parr. Brother as an engineers draughtsman is an indicator for me. But too early to rule much out.

Regards, Paul

[mcassell]

For what it's worth (read on) this picture came with a large job lot of MGC postcard photos I purchased in early 1980s. The reverse states 'Sergt. Trotman GBS'. The only Trotman I could find was 2393 BSM Harry Trotman of 15 MMG Battery. What 'GBS' means is beyond me - Gun Battery Sergeant?? Some years later I purchased the medal group to BSM Trotman (British War and Victory Medals, IGSM 1908 'Afghanistan-NWF 1919') but was very suspicious about naming style which is same on all 3 medals. In all other similar medal groups I have, the IGSM is impressed with usual Calcutta Mint style different from BWM and VM. Also, the rank of 'BSM' on IGSM is odd - all other medals I have of this rank show WO 2 or WO Cl. 2 - though BSM is shown on MIC and relevant rolls. Hence, I am not convinced of the medal groups' authenticity though more certain picture is.

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, mcassell said:

For what it's worth (read on) this picture came with a large job lot of MGC postcard photos I purchased in early 1980s. The reverse states 'Sergt. Trotman GBS'. The only Trotman I could find was 2393 BSM Harry Trotman of 15 MMG Battery. What 'GBS' means is beyond me - Gun Battery Sergeant?? Some years later I purchased the medal group to BSM Trotman (British War and Victory Medals, IGSM 1908 'Afghanistan-NWF 1919') but was very suspicious about naming style which is same on all 3 medals. In all other similar medal groups I have, the IGSM is impressed with usual Calcutta Mint style different from BWM and VM. Also, the rank of 'BSM' on IGSM is odd - all other medals I have of this rank show WO 2 or WO Cl. 2 - though BSM is shown on MIC and relevant rolls. Hence, I am not convinced of the medal groups' authenticity though more certain picture is.

He's an interesting one as his service number 2393 is misleading as he got this long after he joined the MMGS. He was originally 10221 Royal Berkshire Regiment and attended the 56th Vickers Machine Gun Class at Hythe  31st October - 20th November -  at that time Corporal in 7th Berkshire Regiment. This course being run for the start up of the MMGS most of the class transferred to MMGs the following week so would have very low numbers. Nearly all the BSMs were on this course then promoted up from NCOs. Most of them had pre war service or on reserves who mobilised as soon as war broke out. 7th Berks  was a service battalion formed September 1914  so Trotman was only there a matter of weeks.  However I've come across a number of men whose MMGS service numbers do not tally with their actual service. I was alerted to this by finding dates of entry for 1915 Stars  which are before the MMGS service number existed. It's appears down to paperwork being slow from original regiments and them not being properly  transferred - then just getting sorted out many months later. Another example is the BSM of 9th then 11th Batteries David Grubb he was ex A&SH and also at Hythe  went to France 29/5/1915 but then his service number 2384 was only issued into September 1915. Both these men were probably serving under much lower "assumed"  MMGS numbers for around ten months but these were scrubbed and re issued service  numbers. It does also explain why there are some gaps in the early service numbers that do not show up anywhere (especially as most of the early ones have 15 Stars.  

Edited 21 January , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Most interesting. Any idea what GBS might mean? Something something School? Re Hythe class, I had always assumed this was for the group of men from the Artist's Rifles who were later commissioned into MMGS. I have at least 3 medal groups with paperwork to these 1/28 Londons men who were commissioned into the MMGS. Off top of head, Lieutenants G  Campbell and F Sheehan both went to 4 MMG.

[pjwmacro]

On 20/01/2022 at 22:59, mcassell said:

The reverse states 'Sergt. Trotman GBS

Great photo - thank you for sharing.

[mcassell]

Thanks, just wish I was 100% convinced that pic is actually of BSM Trotman. Apart from fact I have no corroborating evidence (e.g. from album), the one-piece MGC M shoulder title, which was not issued until mid 1918, leads me to suspect the pic is of someone BSM Trotman knew, rather than of him. Perhaps finding out what 'GBS' means may hold clue. Mr Murdoch's outstanding forensic work on MMGS suggests BSM Trotman had a complicated military career but, together with my concerns about authenticity of his medal group, can't sign off on this picture being a portrait of him.

[david murdoch]

On 22/01/2022 at 04:42, mcassell said:

Thanks, just wish I was 100% convinced that pic is actually of BSM Trotman. Apart from fact I have no corroborating evidence (e.g. from album), the one-piece MGC M shoulder title, which was not issued until mid 1918, leads me to suspect the pic is of someone BSM Trotman knew, rather than of him. Perhaps finding out what 'GBS' means may hold clue. Mr Murdoch's outstanding forensic work on MMGS suggests BSM Trotman had a complicated military career but, together with my concerns about authenticity of his medal group, can't sign off on this picture being a portrait of him.

Doing a bit further digging on Trotman.

There is a hospital admissions record for him from March 1917  at No.18 General Hospital (Camiers) where he was admitted with suspected diphtheria.

It gives some interesting information.

He's recorded as being 15th Bty. MMGC, rank S/M 

Age  28 - so born 1889-1890

Years in Service 9  so first enlistment 1908 aged 19

Completed months with Field Force 18  so must have date of entry October 1915 but he has no 1915 Star. 

He joined MMGC November 1914 from 7th Royal Berkshire Regiment and he does not appear to have been the original BSM  of 15th MMG. 

His prior number 10221 Royal Berkshire Regiment is noted on his MIC and medal roll but there is no way he served overseas with Royal Berkshires. Checking the Berkshires rolls - 10222 has a Silver War Badge and gives his enlistment date  4th September 1914 and that tallies with Trotman joining 7th Service Battalion as it was formed. He was either transferred or mobilised from reserve on that day as an NCO for the new battalion. There is no record of where his service prior to this was and was certainly under another service number. His MMGS service number was allocated 2nd week in September 1915, so probably only sorted out his paperwork just prior to him going overseas. 

Another record shows him joining Khyber Lodge Peshawar May 16th 1918 and aged 29 (so a slight inconsistency in ages from two documents) but I have not as yet found any UK masonic records for him giving a Lodge or location.

He also claimed a pension but the card gives nothing away and there is no surviving pension record. He demobilised 24/12/1919 Class Z AR.

Looking for someone born 1889-1890 Does not look like he had a middle name.  Possible for him is :-

Harry Trotman
BIRTH 16 OCT 1890 • Wandsworth, Surrey, England

DEATH OCT 1946 • Brentford, Middlesex, England

Records have him as an assistant fitter on 1911 Census  and a marriage record for this man marrying 1915 Barnes, Surrey  occupation "Soldier". On 1939 register his occupation  "Chauffeur Incapacitated" None of the family trees in Ancestry have any WW1 related records to confirm him.

 

Edited 24 January , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Excellent forensic work! Did not know Wandsworth connection - incidentally where I was born! Photo job lot came from Newcastle, tho doesnt mean anything. No idea of source  of medals. Still think 'GBS' is key, Grenade Bomb School?, Government Bicycle.School (my daughter's suggestion!). Cant sign off on pic as authentic yet.

[delta]

Great sleuthing David Murdoch

[pjwmacro]

9 hours ago, mcassell said:

Still think 'GBS' is key

Could be the soldier's (ie not Trotman's) initials?  I`ll check for potential candidates.

[pjwmacro]

Closest I can come is 

79380

Gunner

Stanley George BRUNNING, which is wrong order but right initials.

Gunner George Sullivan is right initials but no B.  Looking back at your original post, the Sergt. Trotman GBS makes it, for me, more likely that this is George Trotman.  Perhaps Gun Battery Sergeant as you suggest. In the picture he wears Sergeant rank - there was more than one sergeant within the battery, so perhaps this indicates he was the senior / selected to be the Battery Sergeant Major without actually holding WO2 rank. Which might also account for the strange naming on the MIC and medals?

[mcassell]

Sorry to create such a brouhaha over photo. Based on great research posted, have sneaking suspicion Harry Trotman was an instructor of sorts only later posted as BSM to 15 MMG when it went to India. Still have serious doubts about medals, style of naming reflects that on MGC fakes ,e.g. Victory Medal to Pte. H. Columbine VC, Medal of OBE for gallantry in Ireland group, and others that have appeared on market in last 20 years.

[david murdoch]

43 minutes ago, mcassell said:

Sorry to create such a brouhaha over photo. Based on great research posted, have sneaking suspicion Harry Trotman was an instructor of sorts only later posted as BSM to 15 MMG when it went to India. Still have serious doubts about medals, style of naming reflects that on MGC fakes ,e.g. Victory Medal to Pte. H. Columbine VC, Medal of OBE for gallantry in Ireland group, and others that have appeared on market in last 20 years.

Regarding the photo,  it's quite alright to get into in depth discussions to try and get to the bottom of things. I'm not sure 100% about  "Motors" shoulder title and exactly when it was first worn. There are so many inconsistencies with badging - even between different batteries. I have a photo of my grandfather wearing this shoulder title in Mesopotamia but photo is "1918  onwards" at the same time I have his MMG cap badge but he never kept an MGC one - which would be his official cap badge from  early 1916 to 1920. 

I'm pretty sure by the style - this photo is a UK studio portrait  - unless there is something on the back to indicate otherwise (can you post up the back side of the photo?) If the shoulder/ title indeed dates it to mid 1918 onwards then it would suggest it being someone else.  1918 would make Trotman 28/29 and he left from France to India late 1917. Rank is Sergeant but it's unknown when he was actually promoted to WO. He was Corporal when he joined MMGS and it's clear at least a couple of the Sergeants on the Hythe course who also  became BSMs were promoted WO very early in 1915, as their rank can be seen in battery photos. So it's logical he would have gone from Corporal to WO is a longer timeframe.  I think you are correct in saying he probably held some position at the training centre for a good part of 1915 - obviously as he had prior military experience - these men were spread around all the batteries and at the training centre to form a military core as everyone else was basically a bunch of bikers off the street.   Also he was  "instructor qualified" from Hythe, but then he would likely wear his MG patch above his stripes rather than on the lower sleeve. I think he was there more due to military background rather than motorcycle background. Certainly he was BSM with 15th MMG by March 1917 well before the moved to India. He could have been with another Battery first as I've seen BSMs with more than one battery, then taken over at 15th either as a casualty replacement or if the original BSM moved on or commissioned.  I will need to take a look in the other war diaries if there is any mention of him coming or going.   

[mcassell]

Thanks for re-assurance re discussing picture, always concerned getting off topic. Will post reverse of card (cell phone pic ok?). Late friend, expert on WD contracts with badge makers, e.g. Gaunt, Firmin, etc, said one-piece MGC titles werent put out for bid until January 1918, so pic cannot date earlier than that. Know, from Australian contact whose grandfather made them, that cloth MMG shoulder titles werent manafactured (presume issued) after July or so 1916. So badge evidence suggests pic dates to 1918.

[pjwmacro]

7 hours ago, mcassell said:

Sorry to create such a brouhaha over photo

Not at all - part of the interest of these threads! Regards, Paul 

[David Henshall]

At last I have a little more on the life and war service of my Grandfather, Phillip Henry Hampton, 15 Battery MMGS

I'm not quite sure of the connection, but my great grandfather worked with the Church  (Hyde Abbey, Winchester) and he got the Vicar to pul some strings  to get Phillip into something other than an infantry unit. He went to the MMGS, Belton House, living in a bell tent to one side of the long driveway to the house. He mentions giving sixpence  - along with the other men, for the purchase of a chalice and platten - which I believe are still at Grantham. After being posted to France he saw service in Ypres and Arras and there is mention made of a grave from one of the Unit - a 19 year old. Without any thought of leave back in the UK they were then packed off to  Marseilles in cattle trucks - right the way across France!

By all accounts they hit a storm when en route to the Suez Canal and his records show that although he didn't like herrings, and not in tomato sauce, he was one of the few that didn't get seasick so had plenty to eat. They landed at Bombay and then transhipped to Peshawar, where their role was protecting the route through the Pass and guarding the fort at Landikotal.

In the hot and dry atmosphere the Clynos suffered from the belts (they were belt driven) drying out which caused a lot of difficulties. The next comment ties in with others made on this thread and refers to the change of name to the Machine Gun Corps - with new cap badges. However, they preferred their old ones so had some new(well, new old) ones cast locally, the workmanship was poor but they were a long way from  the 'power that be'! (the locally made cap badge is still in the family)

Apparently, my grandfather contracted Malaria when in Peshawar, this would be a problem that would stay with him for the rest of his life. At the time there wasn't a lot in the way of palliative medicine, al least until my grandfather met with the man who had been Bert Hinkler's (the long distance flyer - also from Southampton) mechanic. It seemed that Hinkler had also contracted malaria, but knew of a medicine that was very expensive but worked - no idea what it was but it was bright blue in colour.

They must have had some 'tricky moments' because one local instruction was that their revolvers were to be kept as a last resort, not for any attackers but to dispatch any womenfolk in their own camp if it looked likely that they were to be over run. The other comments are less happy - he had been sending money home to be able to marry on his eventual return, only to find that the family had spent it! He was certainly deeply affected by his time under arms - everything he had in terms of uniform and records went into the Church House furnace! 

He changed in other ways which are hard to recall without real sadness. He had been in ill health for some time, when in 1964 the BBC first showed the series 'The Great War'. It came on the TV when I was with him and my grandmother - I pointed it out with all the enthusiasm of a 12 year old and said we might 'see him in it'. Instead, he was roused to a fury, shouting at Grandmother to turn the B****y thing off before he put something through the screen (he wasn't able to move around by that time). I was sat with him at the time and just remember the tears flooding down his pink cheeks....I didn't understand then, but thanks to these memories and the wonderful work done - such as by the people on here - I know so much more now.

 

Thank you - sorry to have rambled on, but - it is a story worth sharing

David

[david murdoch]

David . Very warm welcome to the Forum and to this thread in particular. Your Grandfather, Phillip Henry Hampton was service number 32142 Machine Gun Corps (Motors). Luckily he has a surviving  service record giving all the dates of his service from enlistment and showing he joined 15th MMG in France as a replacement then went  to India. He also took part in 3rd Afghan war and was awarded the India General Service medal.

[pjwmacro]

@David Henshall Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing Phillip Hampton's story.

Regards, Paul