Gallipoli - Division 11

[Mary Shortland]

Good morning,

 

My grandfather Frederick William George Walsh was in the First World War and sent this card to my granny from France. So I know he was on the Western Front. However I am trying to find out whether he was in Gallipoli in 1915. His Division 11 was, but I am not sure whether he was. Living in Australia now and remembering the ANZAC’s it would be nice for my 16 year old daughter who is Australian to know.

 

My grandfather survived the First World War, but as he lived in Wapping near the docks, he was killed during a bombing of the docks on the 11/10/1940.

 

Any help in directing me to where I could find out would be appreciated. I am on Ancestry, but not having much luck.

 

Thank you,

 

Mary,

 

[alantwo]

Hello Mary

 

There is a No.35880 Gunner Frederick William Walsh on Ancestry, could that be your Grandfather? This man has a Medal Index Card with a disembarkation of 19/9/15 (1) France. Some artillery units and reinforcements did enter France before proceeding on to Gallipoli thus I wondered if this could be a start.
 

Regards

Alan

[Mary Shortland]

Thank you Alan.

 

I will have a look,

 

Regards

Mary

[mancpal]

It appears to me that he is wearing spurs and his 'swagger stick' looks more like a riding crop, if (big if) then surely he be a driver not gunner,

 

Simon

Edited 26 April , 2020 by mancpal

[WhiteStarLine]

55 minutes ago, mancpal said:

surely he be a driver not gunner

These men are gunners and all have spurs.  They are part of the AIF artillery reinforcements, training on Salisbury Plain in July 1917.  My grandfather is at the far right.  His previous photo in the album showed the artillery guns and limbers on parade at Salisbury Plain.  He described the man on the left, Gunner Froomes, as "Dick is generally looking for something to eat".

 

[michaeldr]

13 hours ago, Mary Shortland said:

I am trying to find out whether he was in Gallipoli in 1915. His Division 11 was, but I am not sure whether he was.

These are the details of the 11th Division's artillery at Gallipoli,

as given in Gen Farndale's History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery 'The Forgotten Fronts and the Home Base 1914-1918' 

Further details about the 11th Division and where they went to after Gallipoli can be found here

 http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/11th-northern-division/

 

[Mary Shortland]

Thank you so much for you feedback.

 

Looks like it could be one of two people a gunner 35880 or a driver 13915. They both have identical names and served at the same time. I suppose the next step is to get the military records for these men from the government website?

 

Regards

Mary

[alantwo]

Hello Mary

 

The attestation for No.13915 Walsh is available on Ancestry, he appears to have come from Lancashire, would this fit with what you know of your grandfather? His service was in France and at the time of the Gallipoli campaign he was home [England]. He was in France in 1917 but left prior to Christmas. There doesn’t appear to be a service record for the other man, possibly lost in the blitz of WW2.

 

Don’t worry too much about rank at the moment and I can give the example of my grandfather. We have very few photographs of him, but one has him sat astride a horse, the other with spurs and a riding crop like a Driver but he was a Gunner, with the 11th Division as it happens. The difficult bit is trying to find the right man and I cannot be sure the man I suggested is correct, merely a reasonable fit.

 

Regards

Alan

[Mary Shortland]

Hello Alan,

 

Thanks ever so much for your assistance here, my brother and I really appreciate your help.

 

Well grandad was born and lived in London all his life so No.13915 Walsh could not have been him if he came from Lancashire. Grandad was in France the Christmas of 1917. We also think he left the army at the end of the war as well.

No.35880 Walsh is looking like a good fit now!

 

So is there any point in applying to the government site for the  service record for No. 35880?

 

Regards

Mary

[alantwo]

Hello Mary

 

Roughly 70% of all the Servicemen’s records were destroyed in WW2 and those that remain can be found on Ancestry apart from those held by the Guards Division. The indexing on Ancestry is not great, with a lot of mis-spellings, wrong numbers etc., thus it might be worth checking say Welsh, Walch or other variations. A member of our family was told by the National Archives a number of years ago that our grandfather’s records hadn’t survived, but sad to say I checked every man with the same name on Ancestry and happened across an address I was familiar with. If your grandfather remained in the services after the war, his records will still be held by the Ministry of Defence and next of kin can apply for them. However if he did not, then the odds are that his records were destroyed.

 

As mentioned by Michaeldr above, the 11th Division had three Brigades of artillery 58th, 59th and 60th. Forum member David26 has an excellent website for 58th Brigade RFA which covers their time in Gallipoli through to France. David has done a lot of research on men of the Brigade, although unfortunately your grandfather’s surname isn’t mentioned. Sorry I don’t have a link but either drop David a personal message or just try typing 58th Brigade RFA on the internet. I did check my own, still incomplete, database of artillerymen at Gallipoli and nothing turned up.

 

It may be worth checking newspapers local to the area where your grandfather lived, there may be a report of him joining up or perhaps a wounding, you never know.

 

Kind regards

Alan

 

 

[Mary Shortland]

Thank you once again Alan.

 

I will  follow up on your suggestions.

 

Regards

Mary

[michaeldr]

For 58th Brigade, Royal Field Artillery - In commemoration of the officers and men who served in this unit, 1914-1919

see https://58fab.com/

[Mary Shortland]

Thank you Michael,

 

Regards

Mary

[alantwo]

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

For 58th Brigade, Royal Field Artillery - In commemoration of the officers and men who served in this unit, 1914-1919

see https://58fab.com/

Many thanks Michael that’s the website.

 

Mary - another thought. If your grandfather got married whilst still in uniform, a marriage certificate might give a rank and with luck a unit.

 

Regards

Alan

[Mary Shortland]

Hello Alan,

 

Grandad got married in April 1921, after he left the army, so unfortunately that won’t work.

Any other ideas like that would be really appreciated.

 

Kind regards

Mary

[alantwo]

Hello Mary

 

Is this your grandfather?

 

 

 

If so it is part of a Family Tree on Ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/11201544/person/-508198059/story

 

There is another Family Tree https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/70046088/person/46211291420/facts

 

I did have an idea of checking the Absent Voters Lists, but having searched nothing has come up for Wapping.

 

Regards

Alan

Edited 28 April , 2020 by alantwo

[Mary Shortland]

Hello Alan,

 

Thank you so much for the information.

 

The second family tree is definitely ours and the first one is to some degree.

There seems to be a mix up I think with the first family tree. My grandad married my grandmother Elizabeth Yates in April 1921, our records on Ancestry show that and the 2nd family tree reflects that too, showing her as his spouse.

Unfortunately there were so many Walsh’s at that time, with a variation of Frederick, George and William in their name that it makes it difficult to trace your ancestry.

Looking at Edith Battens marriage details she married a Frederick George Walsh not a Frederick William George Walsh, but it looks like my grandfather was used by mistake. Also the photo is not my grandfather.

 

Anyway, just thought I would explain about the family trees as you have gone to so much trouble for me.

 

My brother and I are convinced 35580 Walsh is my grandfather, but we just need to find that link back to his family.

 

Kind regards

Mary

 

 

 

 

[David26]

Hello Mary, 

 

I've only just spotted this, so apologies for not getting in touch sooner, and many thanks to @alantwo and @michaeldr for suggesting my website. I'll take a look at what I have and see if I can provide some thoughts for you, hopefully later today, if that's ok? 

 

David

[Mary Shortland]

Thank you David.

 

That is very good of you,

 

Regards

Mary

[David26]

Mary,

 

thanks again for the query and for posting such lovely things associated with your grandfather.  I wonder if there are any clues about his service on the reverse of either his photo (e.g. a date, postmark or photographer's studio) or on the Christmas card?

 

I ask because sadly I have, so far, drawn a blank.  Assuming that 35880 Gnr Frederick Walsh was your grandfather, then as alantwo has already mentioned, I haven't identified him amongst those I've found so far as having served in 58 Bde, nor do I have him in my (very much shorter) lists of men associated with 59 Bde, 60 Bde or 11 Div Ammunition Column.  Nor even, do I have anyone with a similar service number (which can sometimes be helpful in suggesting a group of men who were all posted together to a unit) or other Fred Walshes who might fit. 

 

Working on the assumption that 35880 Gnr Walsh was your grandfather, then his entry into France date would suggest to me that he probably did not serve at Gallipoli.  Eleventh Division withdrew from Gallipoli in December 1915 and, given the time it took in those days to sail there, it seems unlikely (though not impossible) that he was posted there from France in time to join them on that peninsular.

 

Much more likely, I believe, is that he joined 11 Div in France.  There are a few possibilities to this and, unless we have a lucky stumble across some specific evidence naming him, it's sadly unlikely that we may ever be able to say definitively what happened to your grandfather.  There are though two possibilities that strike me as most likely:

• either, he left a previous unit, perhaps due to sickness or wounding, and was, randomly re-assigned to 11 Div after his recovery sometime before Christmas 1917.  (This type of re-assignment was very common in the artillery, and the artillery units of 11 Division suffered a lot of casualties and lost a lot of men to sickness in France and Flanders in late 1916 and 1917, so needed large numbers of replacements).
• Or, when he went to France in September 1915 he joined 118 Bde RFA.  Due to the complex way the RFA organised and re-organised itself during the war, after the 11 Div artillery units left Gallipoli, and during the subsequent 6 months they spent in Egypt defending the Suez Canal, each of 58, 59 and 60 Bdes had one of their 4 batteries removed to help form a whole new artillery brigade for 11 Division, called 133 Bde RFA.  That meant that when 11 Division arrived in France in July 1916, each of 58, 59 and 60 Bdes were 'short' of a battery and so in July 1916, 118 Bde was split up such that one battery from 118 Bde went to each of 58, 59 and 60 Bdes.  That was obviously a significant influx of new people into each of those brigades.

As you'll see, both of these possibilities involves large numbers of men, so seem about equally possible. 

 

I'm really sorry that I haven't (yet) found anything more definitive about your grandfather's service, though if you do have any information, however niche it might seem, which might help us focus in on a possibility, please do let us know.

 

David.

 

[alantwo]

Hello Mary and David,

 

David thanks for taking the time to reply and sharing your expertise, it's always a great help.

 

I think I should just reiterate that we cannot yet be 100% sure that 35880 Gunner Walsh is your grandfather. He could for example have started elsewhere and been transferred to 11th Division, this type of thing could happen particularly if he had been wounded or ill and was reposted to the front, it certainly happened to my grandfather; there are lots of variables. However I think that until something else crops up 35880 is a reasonable fit, we just need something that will either tie the loose ends together or enable us to dismiss him. David's suggestions regarding the card may help.

 

On my Gallipolians database, I have just over 370 men that have the theatre '(1)' or '(1) France' on their MIC. I have one man with 19/9/15 (1) France, but wrong name and the wrong unit; 26th Battery, 17th Brigade RFA. I agree with David that it is more likely he went directly to France, but it is a possibility he was at Gallipoli. Perhaps David would be kind and check in his 58th Brigade RFA database for 10933 Gunner Thomas Hyde as I have his qualifying date as 2/7/15 (1). Another example for the same Brigade is Lieutenant-Colonel C.V.B. Kuper whose date 28/9/15 (1) is after Gunner Walsh, if correct (I have found errors on the MICs) it would help to illustrate that this particular Brigade/Division at Gallipoli were receiving men who had a first theatre of France.

 

I haven't been able to find Gunner Walsh within Tower Hamlets Absent Voters Lists that are available on Ancestry for 1918, however he is on the London Electoral Role for 1919 at 74 Great Hermitage. Perhaps David would be able to advise if he feels men from 58th Brigade and/or the 11th Division could have been demobbed or be on the 'Z' list by then, thus were home. Sorry to use my grandfather as example again but he wasn't demobbed until 1920.

 

As previously suggested the newspapers of the time may have something of him leaving for the front and I did wonder if there was an obituary following his death in 1940, but I'm sure you know of that.

 

Thanks very much for clearing up the family tree, sorry not to have the right photograph, but really interesting to get additional background information. As David has suggested, If there is any more let us know.

 

Kind regards

Alan

 

Edited 1 May , 2020 by alantwo

[David26]

Hello Mary and Alan,

 

I've been looking a bit further at those who appear to have initially gone to France before subsequently joining 11 Division artillery and none of the men I have who served in 58 Bde at Gallipoli had been in France earlier in the war, so I would suggest that on balance of probabilities it seems very unlikely that if 35880 Gnr Walsh is your grandfather Mary, that he served at Gallipoli, I'm afraid.

 

Alan suggested looking at two particular soldiers: Gnr Thomas Hyde and Lt Col Charles Victor Bremer Kuper.  Both served in 58 Bde but sadly their histories don't appear to shed any helpful light to explain your grandfather's service.  For Gnr Hyde it is clear that his MIC is simply incorrect.  He is one of the few whose service records survive and these confirm that he was in 58 Bde before, during and after the brigade left the UK and went to Egypt from Devonport on 1 July 1915, so I believe his MIC has a simple error in recording his theatre of war - it should be '3' for Egypt, not '1' for France.  Kuper seems a more flamboyant character.  He was one of 58 Bde's earliest commanding officers.  But he probably fell from grace because, while he was in command of the brigade during their training in Leeds in early 1915, his wife sued for divorce because he was living with a mistress in Leeds.  Very soon after that news broke, he seems to have left the brigade and was sent to France.  As far as I'm aware he never rejoined 11 Division after that. 

 

Bringing together the various records I have of the (just under 1000) men who I've identified as having served in 11 Div artillery at some point, there are nine who won the 1914-15 Star for entry into France in September 1915.  I have very few details about most of them - the link for most of them to 11 Div comes from records of when they died (from the CWGC) or when they left the Army early (Silver War Badge records) - and I can find very little about the rest of their military careers, so sadly they also don't help.  The only two men who went to France in September 1915 and whose records are more complete are:

 - Gnr Frederick Downall (12686) who went to France on 2 Sep 1915 with C/75.  He left that unit in November 1916 to join 133 Bde which a few weeks, like 118 Bde had been earlier that year, was broken up to add strength to 58 and 59 Bdes RFA; and

 - Sgt William Seed (675036) who went to France on 29 Sep 1915 and served in 275 Bde RFA.  He joined 58 Bde on 3 Jun 1918. 

So again, sadly, neither of these add much clarity to help work out your grandfather's career.

 

Alan, you also wondered whether men might be recorded in the 1919 Absent Voters lists as being in 58 Bde.  58 Bde had ceased to exist by about the end of May 1919.  Almost all of the men had been demobilised by then and the few who had not yet been demobilised had moved on to other units, so unless whoever completed the absent voters form was using an out-of-date unit, then no-one should be said to be serving in 58 Bde in those lists.

 

Again, I'm sorry that I haven't been able to help you get any closer to your grandfather's service, Mary, but if you do turn up any further details please do let us know and we'll be happy to continue the hunt!   

 

David.

 

 

 

 

[alantwo]

David

 

Many thanks again, particularly for looking up Hyde and Kuper, I have found other errors on the MICs most recently with the 29th Division. Thanks also for your thoughts on the AVLs, it was just another avenue worth considering though it turns out to be a cul-de-sac.

 

Regards

Alan

[Mary Shortland]

Dear Alan and David,

 

Thank you so much for all the information you are getting for me. I have been trying to find some other information that might assist, unfortunately as my Mum has passed away it is a bit limited. There was nothing on the back of the card that could assist, it was just a message to my nanny, but it did have France at the top. 

I have attached two more photos we found of my grandad, one with a message on the back. Not sure if there are any other clues there.

Also, my Aunty (who also has passed away unfortunately) had told my brother that grandad was in India, we think she might have got mixed up with Egypt, but we don’t know for sure.

 

Once again, thank you so much for your assistance here,

 

Regards

Mary

[David26]

Hello Mary,

 

you certainly have a nice set of photos of your grandfather.

 

The first one looks to me like it might have been taken early on in the war - possibly even while in training in the UK, whereas the second one (which I am assuming is the one with the message on the back?) is obviously later on in the war since, in addition to the date of the message, you can see 2 (or is it 3?) small chevrons on the lower right sleeve in the photo.  Those chevrons will have been blue in colour and denote years spent overseas.  They weren't introduced until December 1917 so any photo showing such chevrons has to date after that.  If your grandfather was still serving in 11 Division at that time, then on 25 August 1918 he would likely have been in a place called Philosophe, just east of Mazingarbe in the Pas de Calais department of northern France.  After a couple of weeks' rest, they had returned to the front a few days before that and were about to take part in a series of battles to drive the Germans back.

 

All best wishes,

 

David.