Turkish Battle Damaged Bayonet?

[trajan]

On 21/04/2020 at 12:55, assafx said:

i remembered correctly, here is the paragraph from Ken's book:

 

 

 

my apologies for the quality, i was too lazy to pull my camera and used my smartphone.

 

 

 

On 21/04/2020 at 13:18, assafx said:

 

If you don't mind, i'll set the dates in both calendars so people will be able to participate or understand it better:

 

 

You raised a valid point and it seems to me,  weapons wise, that both dates fit ( assuming there are tooling that need to be made in the factory and payment issues to close down, especially with the financial state of the Ottoman Empire).

 

Thanks assafx - as you point out, there is that annoying two months that has to be taken into consideration! That's why it is always best to express it as you have done here, e.g., 1896/1897. To quote a learned scholar on the subject, "What makes SM usage so hazardous for the historian (as it did no less for those using it in the nineteenth century) is the attempt of its creators to mimic the Christian solar and Muslim lunar calendars simultaneously. An error of date interpretation can produce a result that is incorrect by almost two years, and almost always by nearly two weeks". Fortunately that does not apply to us here...!

[trajan]

On 21/04/2020 at 01:01, Steve1871 said:

On the damaged Muzzle ring, I still trying to figure how a bullet could hit there???

mounted on rifle would not allow such a hit, 

in a scabbard on soldiers waist, a small chance, but still a chance all the same

 

Yes, odd place for battle damage, unless in a scabbard and frog. I have a WW2 84/98 with something similar albeit on the pommel.

[M1890 ottoman]

On 01/05/2020 at 17:07, trajan said:

 

 

Broadly speaking SS is correct. As I understand it, what SS terms the Rumi calendar was officially known as the sene-i-maliya = 'year of the treasury' = fiscal year, and was adapted / adopted to fit the Islamic solar year and calandar to the western calendar to make it easier to deal with uropean companies. This was the system used to date the modifications the Turks made to their Peabody-Martini rifles, as explained in my article on those weapons. As I know SS is fully aware, up to 1916, the SMaliye system ran from March to December each year, with the January and February of the following year added, so that SMaliye 1312 = March 1896 - February 1897.

 

BUT, these bayonets are dated by the Anno Hegira system and so are 1894 - 1895. And yes, the dates of manufacture are corroborated by the work of Hintermeir in his German Waffen Journal articles on the supply of Mauser rifles to Ottoman Turkey which I have somewhere but cannot find right now....

I proudly own a M1890 too , which I bought from a antique store many years after I have seen it in my childhood hanging on the cabin . It is a W.K.C example from ١٣٠٦ ؛1306 that isnt sharpened nor has the cereal numbers.

So does those have a special meaning to it , or might it not even been shipped to ottoman soil at first place ?

[AndyBsk]

1306 is most real not M1890 bayonet but more real a M1887 bayonet. There should be lower ring when in origin condition. 1306 should be 1888/9.

[M1890 ottoman]

3 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

1306 is most real not M1890 bayonet but more real a M1887 bayonet. There should be lower ring when in origin condition. 1306 should be 1888/9.

Thanks I should of have figured it out 

Have you guys came across with a unsharpened and unnumbered example like this. Mabey a it contract surplus that never left Europe 

[AndyBsk]

Nice condition, on right side of crossguard should be normally the serial number.

[trajan]

My experience is that many serial numbers have been removed post-issue, so let's see the other side!

[M1890 ottoman]

Hello there, n happy 100th anniversary Trajan

Seems like ive got something intresting after getting somewhat(my opinion) getting bored of ottoman bayonets(after the long time of investigating and decoding). I've bought an ottoman m1887(١٣٠٦)from an antique shop during the pandemic here in Kuwait that i used to come by and take a look at it when i was young. The previous owner told me that he might have bought it from Europe most likely Austria. The thing is that the bayonet seems unsharpened and haven't been numbered.

The frog is an IMA 98/05 reproduction and ive reproduced scabbards leather due to the original being half way gone and fossilized.

What are your thoughts on it?

 

[AndyBsk]

Looks like proper M1887(1306) marked bayonet, normally on crossguard should be the serial number, is possible here was a spare piece. the condition is well, frog doesnt look like S98/05 type. More like proper for this  button on scabbard, similar are south american frogs.

[M1890 ottoman]

Thanks Andy, Is it common to come by non-issued ottoman bayonets? Somewhat after a series of total wars. It raises the question there could have there been Surplus in the contracts.

[AndyBsk]

This condition to find should means, the piece was not used or was captured very early in war so it could be from Europe, i known from here in middle Europe that i saw any full lenght M90 and M03 bayonets that could be remained postwar and were supplied to antique market, normally by service one, it would be heavily shortened, reserialed and refurbished for different rifle models. Trajan when occure here should be wrote more. Personally with Tughra marking and various turkish proofs, dont believe it was not delivered, but it could be a spare piece, that went to depot when newer M90 came into Turkey.

[M1890 ottoman]

I really appreciate your comment Andy, right all of the proof/inspection marks are there. Austria is the first country id love to visit hearing richness of the antique markets. Probably due to ww2 when most of the valuable stuff in Germany and around Europe were sent there during the final stages.  I've purred molten bee's wax in the Scabbard to help the leather keep it shape inserting the blade which was wrapped to make sure it doesn't catch the blade.  I'm thinking about doing the same on the m1888 ive purchased for 3000turkish liras(bit more than a 100bucks) from insta. Trajan might have seen it due to being for sale under "Kasatura, İngiliz Kasatura" on a website called kitantik. 

[AndyBsk]

Austria was really interesting for antique items post 1990, anyway now there are many dealers around middle Europe neighborough countries, so the material is already partly outsaled.

[trajan]

A very nice bayonet! I am uncertain on how the Otoman army serial-marked its weaponry. It may be that like Germany, they only marked things that had been issued to active units, and so those in store were left unmarked.

As for onward use of Ottoman bayonets, some 1890 bayonets not sent to Turkey by Weyersburg Kirschbaum ended up in Luxembourg... As their M1900... See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/222533-a-luxembourg-m1900-bayonet/ 

 

[AndyBsk]

I believe the turks contracts were serialed with rifle number as normally by any export contracts, but there existed certainly a spare pieces. By germans already since 1871 was not serialed bayonet with rifle, with only few exceptions. Bayonets were units stamped same as the rifles.