Motor Machine Gun Batteries on the North West Frontier and India

[pjwmacro]

The success of the 22nd Battery Motor Machine Guns topic which was started on the GWF nearly 3 years ago, has sparked my curiosity about the other batteries of the Motor Machine Gun Service / Machine Gun Corps (Motors) which served in India during WW1, and particularly got caught up in the policing operations in the Punjab, and the Third Afghan War (TAW) of 1919. I think they were:

 

3rd Motor Machine Gun Battery - arrived India January 1918. Sent to Kohat during TAW - didn't see action? 

14th Motor Machine Gun Battery - arrived India January 1918. Remained in Bombay / Jubalpore during TAW.

15th Motor Machine Gun Battery - arrived India January 1918. Stationed at Peshwar, saw action in TAW.

19th Motor Machine Gun Battery - arrived India January 1918. Stationed at Quetta, saw action in TAW.

22nd Motor Machine Gun Battery. Formed in 1915, arrived India Mar 1916, stationed Rawalpindi, saw action around Parachinar during TAW.

23rd Motor Machine Gun Battery - according to LLT/Charles Messenger in David Fletchers' War Cars, formed in India. Nothing more known - but this seems unlikely.

25th Motor Machine Gun Battery (Calcutta Volunters) - formed in India in May 1917. Moved to Egypt July 1917. Disbanded January 1918, in Egypt. (Not to be confused with the original 25th Battery which formed in UK in 1915, but appears to have been disbanded in 1916, without ever shipping overseas).

 

The only war diary / documentation I can find that covers the time in India / TAW is 22 Battery's War Diary at Kew. So far as I am aware, the only war diaries for other batteries cover their time in France. Also, so far as I am aware, none of the batteries served as formed units in the Waziristan campaigns - they all disbanded no later autumn 1919.

 

Happy to hear from anyone who can add to the stories. I am currently trawling the IGSM Afghanistan NWF 1919 rolls to see if I can establish a rough nominal roll for each battery in India (as opposed to in France). As I do so I`ll publish a separate thread for that battery.

 

Stay safe and healthy.

[researchingreg]

I was researching a Captain Phipps who served in India, the relevant part of my research was "......At the end of WW1 2nd Lt George Berridge Phipps was serving with the 2nd Bn Bedfordshire Regiment and his battalion was based at Sevigny France and he returned to England on 30 Mar 1919.
He was later attached to the 10th Armoured Car Company Royal Tank Corps and served in India as a Lieutenant. He re-joined the Bedford and Herts regiment in 1922...."

 

However you may be interested in the following Royal Tank Corps Link which may point you in the right direction for the information you are looking for.....  https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Royal_Tank_Corps#Armoured_Motor_Batteries_and_Armoured_Motor_Brigades_MGC_1915-1921

[pjwmacro]

5 hours ago, researchingreg said:

However you may be interested in the following Royal Tank Corps Link which may point you in the right direction for the information you are looking for

Thank you. I am interested in the Tank Corps in India - but that's a project for a later date.

 

FIBIS is a useful source: https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Machine_Gun_Corps - this one is better for the Motor Machine Gun Batteries.

[pjwmacro]

Thread for 15 Battery now started, can be found here:

 

 

This is the link for 3rd Motor Machine Gun Battery

 

 

[pjwmacro]

The thread for 14 Motor Machine Gun Battery is:

 

 

[pjwmacro]

19th Battery thread is here:

 

 

3rd MMG Battery thread is here:

 

 

[pjwmacro]

The 22 MMG Battery thread is here:

 

 

[Ruth]

Hello,

I am very new to this process.  Recently my own family decided to try and research my grandfather's service which we only knew as 'he was in India'.  So far I have gathered that he signed up to the 5th East Surrey in  August 1914 as a "private" and was sent out in October. Through Ancestry.com I have found several of his military documents and discovered that he transferred to MGC as a "corporal" a couple of years later.  We do have a few faded photos where he has written "Peshawar" and "Pindi" on the back but there's no sign of 'guns', just camps, men and mules.

I'm wondering if anyone would be kind enough to decipher the following 'codes' from a medal index card record to help us follow his possible postings/activities?

 

Roll:  MGC/101A-1 Page 12

#IND.GS.APGN.NWFF.1919.ROLL

 

Also noted on the card are:

17916-161

swro list-M-GC/961

AS/MGC/455

 

Thank you.

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum Ruth.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/

 

Here is some information about Medal Index Cards to get you started.

 

Michelle

 

[david murdoch]

4 hours ago, Ruth said:

Hello,

I am very new to this process.  Recently my own family decided to try and research my grandfather's service which we only knew as 'he was in India'.  So far I have gathered that he signed up to the 5th East Surrey in  August 1914 as a "private" and was sent out in October. Through Ancestry.com I have found several of his military documents and discovered that he transferred to MGC as a "corporal" a couple of years later.  We do have a few faded photos where he has written "Peshawar" and "Pindi" on the back but there's no sign of 'guns', just camps, men and mules.

I'm wondering if anyone would be kind enough to decipher the following 'codes' from a medal index card record to help us follow his possible postings/activities?

 

Roll:  MGC/101A-1 Page 12

#IND.GS.APGN.NWFF.1919.ROLL

 

Also noted on the card are:

17916-161

swro list-M-GC/961

AS/MGC/455

 

Thank you.

If you give his name and number  the NWFF.1919 roll  usually has company or battery noted.

[Ruth]

Thank you for your replies.  I have been able to find more information and will continue to search.

Best regards.

[pjwmacro]

On 13/12/2020 at 11:56, Ruth said:

Roll:  MGC/101A-1 Page 12

#IND.GS.APGN.NWFF.1919.ROLL

 

 

Hi Ruth

 

Welcome to the forum - you`ll find lots of people on here willing to help, along with the very useful sister site, the Long Long Trail which has a section on the Machine Gun Corps which explains the difference between MGC (Infantry), MGC(Cavalry) and MGC(Motors) - the last of which originated out of the Motor Machine Gun Service (MMGS) - and which is the primary focus of this thread.

 

What I can tell you for certain is that the quoted section of the Medal Index Card (MIC) says your grandfather fought with the MGC during the 1919 Third Afghan War on the North West Frontier of India - in the area which is now the Afghanistan - Pakistan border. He would have also been entitled to the silver British War Medal (BWM) and potentially, but less likely, the Victory Medal. (if you have the medals, both should be engraved on the rim with his MGC number, his rank initials and name, and then MGC). To say any more with certainty you`ll need to let us know his full name and service number - I suggest you start a fresh post with outwith this thread, but in the Soldiers and Their Units area of the forum, which gives the details you do know. People on the forum will then be in a better position to assist.

 

My gut feeling from your saying he enlisted as an infantryman (East Surrey) is that he was a machine gunner within his battalion and was then transfered into MGC(Infantry) but that is a guess on my part - his service papers should tell you. Worth noting the Eat Surrey's are not listed as a battalion involved in the Third Afghan War - although the Royal West Surrey's are (stationed at Peshwar as part of the Line of Communication Defence). But men of the MGC(Motors) / MMGS - ie those who formed Motor Cycle Machine Gun Batteries tended to have prior mechanical experience / interest in motorcycles and generally enlisted direct into the MMGS / MGC(M) rather than via an infantry battalion. (That's a generalisation - not an absolute!)

 

Hope that's of some help to you.  War diaries for many units which took part in the THird Afghan War are available at TNA Kew - but not digitised so will need a personal research visit, although it's highly unlikely a soldier will be mentioned by name.  Please feel free to post any photos onto this thread if you wish to share them. Best wishes and good luck.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

[Ruth]

Thank you, Paul.  This is really helpful and very much appreciated.  Our photos etc., are in Canada at the moment but it is possible we'll post a couple at some point.

Again, thank you so much for 'deciphering' the notations.  

All the very best to you and yours. May we all look forward to a happier, safer 2021.

[David Porter]

I've just been looking at the Motor Machine Gun Batteries to fill a small section in my book about the RH and RFA formations. Although they were no longer a branch of the artillery after becoming Machine Gun Corps (Motors), I thought it worth completing the battery histories. It brought me to this thread and the others linked within. In the one for the 3rd Battery there is mention of Claude Henry Briance who has a good surviving record. I noticed he embarked at Marseilles on November 28, 1917.

Image courtesy Findmypast

So, armed with that information, I looked up the War Diary of the Marseilles Base Commandant (WO 95/4038-3). It shows that all four MMG batteries embarked that day on SS Manitou, and, according to Briance's record, they disembarked in India on January 9, 1918.

Image courtesy the National Archives

Nice to be able to find that information, which I don't think is mentioned anywhere else on the Great War Forum.

[david murdoch]

On 15/09/2021 at 13:25, David Porter said:

I've just been looking at the Motor Machine Gun Batteries to fill a small section in my book about the RH and RFA formations. Although they were no longer a branch of the artillery after becoming Machine Gun Corps (Motors), I thought it worth completing the battery histories. It brought me to this thread and the others linked within. In the one for the 3rd Battery there is mention of Claude Henry Briance who has a good surviving record. I noticed he embarked at Marseilles on November 28, 1917.

Image courtesy Findmypast

So, armed with that information, I looked up the War Diary of the Marseilles Base Commandant (WO 95/4038-3). It shows that all four MMG batteries embarked that day on SS Manitou, and, according to Briance's record, they disembarked in India on January 9, 1918.

Image courtesy the National Archives

Nice to be able to find that information, which I don't think is mentioned anywhere else on the Great War Forum.

There are individual threads for the MMG Batteries which ended up in India. 

 

Edited 16 September , 2021 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

On 15/09/2021 at 18:25, David Porter said:

So, armed with that information, I looked up the War Diary of the Marseilles Base Commandant (WO 95/4038-3). It shows that all four MMG batteries embarked that day on SS Manitou, and, according to Briance's record, they disembarked in India on January 9, 1918.

Thanks for posting David. I had wondered if they had all shipped together. Nice to have it confirmed.

Regards 

[pjwmacro]

@david murdoch- thanks for the image

[pjwmacro]

Just bumping this thread, with links to the individual battery threads for the Motor Machine Gun Batteries on the North West Frontier and in India. Interesting material and photos added recently to both 15 and 19 MMG threads, including the involvement of 19 MMG in the 1918 Marri Punitive Expedition.

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

I'll be brief so not to slip off topic. There is a 1917 letter at NA from Montagu to WO requesting 5 MMG Batteries to work with Armoured Motor Brigades - will try to find reference. Second, one of the Indian Army Lists of 1919 (August I think) shows structure as in my previous post, except 9, 10, 12-15 not brigaded, with MMG Batteries attached as shown.

Interesting and thanks for looking. I know there was a certain amount of movement of personnel from the MMG batteries to the AMU / AMB. But this is the first I have heard of them being formally brigaded. I wonder if it was requested but never really happened in practice - or if it did the practice was not uniform through the NWF. Certainly none of my 22 MMGB research has thrown up any indications of them working with the AMBs. That said, Robson (Crisis on the Frontier) appears to associate sections of armoured cars with both 19 and 22 MMG. Up til now I have always assumed it was a mistake.

Interesting conversation about Armoured Motor Batteries / Armoured Motor Brigades, and whether or not the Brigades included the Motor Machine Gun Batteries, developing on the 19th Motor Machine Gun Battery thread. (see above) Rather than clutter the 19 MMG thread I will try and move that conversation to this more general one. Longer term, I will look to initiate separate threads for each of the Armoured Motor Units / Batteries in India, as I can identify additional material - and as I have time!

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

The subject of Amoured Motor Brigades and Batteries is fraught with difficulties, not least because the same initial letter (B) covers both Brigade and Battery!

@ghchurcher and @david murdoch put some effort into trying to sort the confusion a couple of years ago in the form of media folders on the following FB page: (1) ROYAL TANK CORPS 1918-1939 Research & Collectors Group | Facebook

Quoting that site:

1ST ARMOURED MOTOR BRIGADE (1AM.BDE)

Comprised:-
1st Armoured Motor Battery (1AMB)
2nd Armoured Motor Battery (2AMB)
3rd Armoured Motor Battery (3AMB)

BACKGROUND TO ARMOURED MOTOR BRIGADES

In the operation from Shabkadar (North West Frontier) on 8 October 1915 "armoured cars were used for the first time in action in India and proved of great value". (LG 04/07/1916)

Armoured Motor Units began to form in the Spring of 1915 utilising vehicles donated by rich Indians and Europeans. This was overseen by Colonel Lord Montagu (Inspector of Motor Vehicles, India and later Brigadier General, Advisor on Mechanical Transport Services, India). Only No1 AMU had reliable vehicles - three Rolls Royce which, like the other cars, were armour-plated by Indian Railway Workshops off chassis sent from the UK, and this unit acted as a Brigade HQ for Nos 1, 2 & 3 AMUs, and being titled 1st Armoured Motor Brigade. Most of the other vehicles were unsuitable and it was not until 1918 that improved cars were made available.

The Units were re-designated Armoured Motor Batteries in 1917 and during this period, British and Indian crews were gradually replaced by MGC personnel. The British crews had originally been provided by Territorials from garrisons in India.

By 1919, 2nd & 3rd Armoured Motor Brigades were formed from Nos 9, 10 & 12 AMBs in 2AM.BDE and Nos 8, 11 & 14 AMBs in 3AM.BDE, whilst Nos 4, 13 & 15 AMBs remained un-brigaded.

At the commencement of the 3rd Afghan War however, 1st Armoured Motor Brigade was reorganised into five Regular and three Auxiliary AMBs which served in the Khyber and Chitral areas.

10th Armoured Motor Brigade was formed on the 1st July 1919 as part of a reorganisation of the armoured car batteries in India. It comprised Nos 5, 6, 7 & 16 AMBs and operated in Waziristan and Mahsud. Disbanded 30th September 1921 (RTCSH says November) when it was absorbed by 10th Armoured Car Company of the Tank Corps

[Dodram]

On 28/03/2022 at 21:17, pjwmacro said:

The subject of Amoured Motor Brigades and Batteries is fraught with difficulties, not least because the same initial letter (B) covers both Brigade and Battery!

@ghchurcher and @david murdoch put some effort into trying to sort the confusion a couple of years ago in the form of media folders on the following FB page: (1) ROYAL TANK CORPS 1918-1939 Research & Collectors Group | Facebook

Quoting that site:

10th Armoured Motor Brigade was formed on the 1st July 1919 as part of a reorganisation of the armoured car batteries in India. It comprised Nos 5, 6, 7 & 16 AMBs and operated in Waziristan and Mahsud. Disbanded 30th September 1921 (RTCSH says November) when it was absorbed by 10th Armoured Car Company of the Tank Corps

First post, so be kind. I am researching Major Dean Farquhar, commandant of 10th Armoured Brigade.  He was a pre war Scottish Hockey internationalist. Attested May 1915.  Commisioned Indian Army Reserve Simla 5th October 1917. Died 11th October 1920 at Dera Ismail Khan. I am wondering if anyone with more knowledge of the armoured car units in India have any more information about this man?

[pjwmacro]

4 hours ago, Dodram said:

First post, so be kind. I am researching Major Dean Farquhar, commandant of 10th Armoured Brigade.  He was a pre war Scottish Hockey internationalist. Attested May 1915.  Commisioned Indian Army Reserve Simla 5th October 1917. Died 11th October 1920 at Dera Ismail Khan. I am wondering if anyone with more knowledge of the armoured car units in India have any more information about this man?

Hi Dodram

The name is familiar but I haven't looked into him. @david murdoch or @mcassellmay be able to provide more detail. otherwise have you tried searching the GWF to see if snyone has pisted more sbout him in the past?

Regards, Paul 

[david murdoch]

17 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Hi Dodram

The name is familiar but I haven't looked into him. @david murdoch or @mcassellmay be able to provide more detail. otherwise have you tried searching the GWF to see if snyone has pisted more sbout him in the past?

Regards, Paul 

He actually died from head injuries as the result of falling off a horse! CWGC have him listed as being 7th Armoured Car Company, but he was acting Major and CO of 10th ACC. 

He's listed on the Delhi memorial but buried at Dera Ismail Khan.

Find War Dead | Search Results | CWGC

Edited 31 March by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

I have Farquhar joining MMGS on 13th May 1915. His MMGS number was 1258. His rank on his Medal Index Card is WO 2 which hints he maybe had previous experience (territorial or cadet corps) or transferred in from another unit, as he went from joining to WO in 9 months. It appears from his MIC nobody claimed his medals - he being deceased officer. He was the Battery Sergeant Major of 17th MMG -  so likely went overseas in February 1916 hence no 14/15 star. 17th MMG were in Egypt/Palestine and became 15th L.A.M.B in July 1917.  There is no mention of him in the 15th L.A.M.B war diary a the went to Mesopotamia in August 1917. It's probable he returned to UK or direct to India then, as he was discharged to commission and then commissioned October 1917 and this fits the timeframe. Likely he joined one of the small A.M.B units in India as a 2nd Lieutenant.  Again he went from commissioning to acting Major and CO in a fairly short time.  His probate, will and 1911 census all put him at his parent's address, and he does not appear to have married.  

His service record is at Kew.

[Dodram]

David, Thank you so much. I have much of that information including his officer record. But I don't have the depth of information to make sense of it. Especially the bit from going abroad until his death. 

It may be of interest that Dean was capped three times at goalie for Scotland's Hockey team pre war. He also seems to have had a bit of a reputation as a quick draw/cartoon artist at society and charty events

He attested at Edinburgh 10th May1915 and was quickly promoted to acting Bmdr then Battery SM of 17th battery as you state. He was at school at Queens Park, I'm not sure if they would have had an OTC.

Again, much thanks for sharing your knowledge

Dod