Frederick William Rumsey - Manchester Regt

[Shiny]

Hi All,

 

I'm researching Frederick William Rumsey who went on to become 113 WO2 (CSM) Rumsey of the Manchester Regiment.

 

I have found his MIC, Medal Roll and Pension cards as well as a pre war record and that is what I'm after a bit of help with.

 

I can see he joined the 5th Bn Manchester Regt on the 6th of August 1904 which would have made him about 22 years old at the time.

 

I know he was awarded the 1914 Star qualifying on the 19th Sep 1914 as a Sgt with the 2nd Battalion and that he moved between the 3rd, 2nd 3rd and 16th during the war.

 

I know from his pension card he was discharged 13th Mar 1919.

 

I'm hoping someone can help decipher the handwriting on his record (attached).

 

How long did he sign up for originally and how many days does it say he did?

 

I'm wondering if he was still serving when war broke out and that's how he was a Sgt in September, had he left and was called up / volunteered and made a Sgt because of a mixture of his previous experience and age?

 

As always any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Michael

[Banstead100]

Hi Michael,

It looks like he signed up for six years (consistent with some other Manchester militiamen I checked). With regards to the second entry, it's clearer on the record of Robert Action (s/no 94, also attested 1904): the entry reads "DonE days". The first word is an abbreviation of "Drilled on Enlistment" but I'm not sure how the "days" comes into it.

 

James

[Banstead100]

There's a bit of a gap between "DonE" and "days", as there is for Robert Acton's record too. If you look at Frederick Ackroyd (s/n 9829, attested 1904) you'll see it says "D.O.E. 49 dys" so the gap in Rumsey and Acton's records is evidently a placeholder for a number of days spent on annual training and the like, to be entered later when their service ended.

[Shiny]

Hi James, 

 

Thanks very much, 6 years was my guess but I didn't want to cloud anyone's judgement. 

 

The DOE makes sense, thanks very much for the research you've done.

 

I wonder if his amount of days weren't entered because his service ran into war service so events over took the admin side of things?

 

Thanks again for the help, 

 

Michael 

[Banstead100]

There are no training camps listed on his Militia service record so I would guess he joined the militia to see if he liked military life in August 1904 and within weeks (i.e. before his first annual training camp) had decided to join up as a regular soldier (which would be on a different set of paperwork, presumably lost) so there would be no days to enter.

 

His early Regular service number (113), which is only slightly further on from his Militia service number (67), suggests summer/autumn 1904 per https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/01/manchester-regiment-regular-special.html. You could narrow the date down by checking out some other Manchester service records for similar service numbers. He would still have been within the usual 12 years in 1914 so was probably still serving when war broke out although whether with the colours or in the reserve we won't know without the missing records.

[Shiny]

Thank you so much James, the only slight issue is that I've just found his marriage register entry. It's dated 18th of November 1911, it has a home address in Northallerton and says his occupation is a railway porter.

 

Michael 

[Banstead100]

That's not necessarily a problem as the usual 5 years with the colours takes him to 1909 and then after that he'd be in the reserve for seven years and he's unlikely to mention that on his marriage certificate as his civilian job would be more relevant then. Have you found him in the 1911 census? If not, then he might have extended his time to as much as 7 years with the colours, which would fit with him having attained the rank of sergeant, that usually took a while and probably required at the least a 1 year extension. If signed up for 7 years, he would have been out shortly before his wedding date, time enough to get a job with the railway. Will be interested to see if you can turn up any more info.

 

His 1904 service number, rank of sergeant and early date of deployment into theatre (September 1914) with a Regular battalion (2nd) suggest an experienced military man and he is unlikely to have been a mere militiaman. From the British War and Victory Medal roll, it appears he was in 3rd (Reserve) Bn first, then 2nd (with whom he was awarded the 1914 Star), so I think he's a reservist at the outbreak of war, is called up to 3rd Bn, probably helps do some training of new recruits/fellow reservists, and then is posted off to 2nd Bn as an experienced reinforcement in September, probably in a batch of reservists.

 

James

[Shiny]

Brilliant, thanks a lot James.

 

I have looked and looked but just can't find his 1911 census entry.

 

I saw the various different battalions on the medal roll, I hadn't considered him starting in the 3rd, I just assumed he'd been in the 2nd from the outbreak. Your scenario makes sense.

 

It's a pity his record doesn't seem to exist, I want to get the war diaries to see where he was but without knowing the dates he swapped battalions it seemed a bit pointless.

 

I know from his pension cards he was classed as 100% disabled suffering from VDH which is apparently also know as soldiers heart.

 

Michael 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Banstead100 said:

That's not necessarily a problem as the usual 5 years with the colours takes him to 1909 and then after that he'd be in the reserve for seven years

 

The normal split was 7 years in the colours, five in the reserves, although by 1904 the army was pushing a three and nine split. Other options were available.  Of course depending on when he had originally enlisted in 1904 he could still have done his 7 years by November 1911 - in fact one of the first things he might have done on returning to civvy life was get married.

 

Any term he signed up to with the militia would have been superseded by the terms of his enlistment with the Regular Army and that's not even taken into account that if he had remained a militia man this would have been superseded by the creation of the Territorial Force in 1908 at which point he would have been invited to sign up for four years.

 

15 minutes ago, Shiny said:

I have looked and looked but just can't find his 1911 census entry.

 

Harts Annual Army List for 1911, (correct to the 31st December 1910), shows the 1st Battalion at Kamptee (India) and the 2nd Battalion at Mullingar (Ireland). The 1912 edition shows the 1st Battalion still at Kamptee but the 2nd Battalion at the Curragh, (Ireland).

 

Due to its scope the 1911 Census of England and Wales would have included the 1st Battalion but not the 2nd - they would have fallen within the Census of Ireland taken at the same time. If he was still in his 7 year term and with the 2nd Battalion then this may be the simplest explanation of why he can't be found.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Banstead100]

You can probably do the start of his story using the war diaries as (if it has survived) the 2nd Bn's war diary would hopefully record the date of arrival of a batch of reinforcements within a few days of his 1914 Star eligibility date. If not, you could probably assume he was with 2nd Bn within a week or so of landing anyway.

 

As he was an NCO, there's a small chance he might get a mention in the diaries or regimental history somewhere along the line.

 

I can't see any newspaper casualty reports that mention him, which is usually a useful guide when trying to work out which dates someone might have moved between battalions, so he might have just been posted back to the 3rd to help train the new 16th Battalion and then gone back out to France with them in the autumn of 1915. Something like that probably anyway.

1 minute ago, PRC said:

 

The normal split was 7 years in the colours, five in the reserves,

 

Oops, yes, thanks for correcting.

[PRC]

Long Long Trail has this for the 2nd Battalion.

 

2nd Battalion
August 1914 : at the Curragh. Part of 14th Brigade in 5th Division.
17 August 1914 ; landed at Le Havre.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/manchester-regiment/

 

Frederick will have been mobilised at the outbreak of the war but wasn't deemed one of the men necessary to bring the battalion up to war-time establishment. Instead he goes out as one of the early drafts, if the not the first, for replacements for the losses in the retreat from Mons, landing in France on the 14th September 1914. Prior to that he would have been on the establishment of the 3rd.

 

Men didn't routinely switch between Battalions, so most likely he was wounded \ suffered an accident \ fell sick and was medically repatriated back to the UK. He would then have been posted on to the establishment  of the 3rd Battalion for pay, discipline and administration purposes, and may have eventually physically served with them on recovery. After a period of refresher training and fitness assessment, he most likely would then have been back in the pool to either go out as a replacement draft or to be used as part of a cadre of Regular Army soldiers to form the backbone of one of the new Kitchener Service Battalions.

 

If he was wounded then should turn up on an Official Casualty List. If he suffered an accident or fell sick then your best bet is local newspapers.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Shiny]

Thank you both Peter and James, this is all really helping me understand his story.

 

I had done a search for him in the British newspaper archives but couldn't spot anything there but one thing I have seen is a copy of his WO2 warrant which says he was promoted on the 29th of April 1918.

 

I wonder if maybe he was with the 2nd Bn right through the war, wounded or separated from them during the spring offensive meaning an admin posting to the 3rd then posted to the 16th as a CSM when he was promoted?

 

Or was there a course he would have been sent away for to get his WO2 (on strength of the 3rd Bn again) and then posted to the 16th?

 

How does any of that sound?

 

Michael 

[clk]

Hi,

 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Of course depending on when he had originally enlisted in 1904 he could still have done his 7 years by November 1911

 

For me, his militia papers seem to read as if he was only with them for just over a fortnight before joining up as a regular.

 

Image sourced from Findmypast

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

[PRC]

The role of Company Sergeant Major in an Infantry Battalion in a Theatre of War was filled by the senior Sergeant, and in the event that the position became vacant, the Sergeant with the next seniority took over - it wasn't something that required a Training Course or a return to the UK as far as I'm aware. Of couse the circumstances in which the position was vacated may cause some issues - i.e if they were officially missing then the post could only be filled on an Acting Unpaid basis. Thus a Sergeant might be carrying out the CSM role for sometime before being officially promoted.

 

8 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

 

For me, his militia papers seem to read as if he was only with them for just over a fortnight before joining up as a regular.

 

Image sourced from Findmypast

 

Thanks Chris - so most likely out by the end of August 1911.

 

3 hours ago, Shiny said:

the only slight issue is that I've just found his marriage register entry. It's dated 18th of November 1911, it has a home address in Northallerton and says his occupation is a railway porter.

 

I see his wifes's maiden name is Handsom - can't tell which one as it looks like two female Handsom's (sisters?) married on the same day. However as well as a birth in 1912 there is also a birth of a Frederick G. Rumsey, mothers' maiden name Handson, which was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Northallerton District of Yorkshire in Q1 of 1915. At a minimum the details in fathers occupation should show his rank and regiment but sometimes it had much more, so may help pin down which Battalion he was with at the time of his sons' birth.

 

If you do decide to go down the War Diary route can I suggest you gor the Brigade Diary for the period you are interested in rather than the Battalion. Each months Brigade War Diary also includes a copy of the War Diary for each of the units that made up the Brigade. Not only are they usually typed up rather than handwritten, in my experience they also tend to have retained the appendices and maps that may well have gone missing from the Battalion version. I have had joy in the past in identifying senior NCO's not otherwise mentioned in the main war diary through their appearance in operational orders - CSM X will be in charge of the bomb store at..., CSM Y will lead a party forward with Stokes Guns, ...and the like.

It varies considerably but appendices are the one place you are also likely to find named casualty lists.

 

Downside is if you go for them from the National Archive then the Brigade Diaries cover shorter periods and so can prove quite costly - however you do get a whole document. If you find them on Ancestry you have go through \ download one page at a time.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Shiny]

Thanks again gents,

 

So James and Chris both think he was militia for a few weeks before signing up full time, that explains the second date on the record and the fact that there are only 4 pages in it with very little detail in it.

 

Peter, his wife's name was Florence and yes I'd spotted the double wedding as well. I think it must be her sister as the fathers name and address all match on both records.

 

The war diary is an interesting thing. I didn't realise there were two copies out there, unit and brigade. I've looked for smaller units in the past where they are buried in Division ones and always seem to need someone to say where to find it. I just really seem to struggle with them so finding brigade ones could be a challenge for me.

 

Generally I can search Ancestry and find the bigger units ok but it sounds like I might have been missing out on information by doing that.

 

I have so much to learn.

 

Michael

[PRC]

I was going to say as a general rule check the LLT page for the relevant battalion to see what brigade and division they were in but when I went to use the Manchester Regiment one as an example I saw this for the 16th Battalion.

 

13 May 1918 : reduced to cadre strength.
18 June 1918 : moved to Boulogne and transferred to 42nd Brigade in 14th (Light) Division. Returned to England and moved to Cowshott. Reconstituted by absorbing 29th Bn.
4 July 1918 : returned to France.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/manchester-regiment/

 

That sounds like a likely point in which a veteran Regular Army NCO might be drafted in and given a senior position.

 

I don't subscribe to Ancestry (lack of funds) and neither does my local Library service so I have to keep a little crib sheet for myself for the odd occasions when Ancestry offer a free weekend.

 

Starting from the UK, WWI War Diaries (France, Belgium and Germany), 1914-1920 page https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60779/

Use the right hand drop boxes.

1. Regiment or Unit. Scroll down to "Various (Infantry Bridages, xx Division)" - their spelling, not mine

2. Division. Only option should now be "xx Division".

Then Piece Description should show whats available.

Attached is a screenshot using the details above for the 16th Battalion.

 

Hope that helps - and apologies if all that is teaching the proverbial granny to suck eggs !

Peter

 

[Shiny]

Hi Peter,

 

Thank you very much for the help, you're definitely not teaching me to suck eggs. A few people have tried to explain it all to me before but this is the first time I've seen a screen shot, I think I've been looking in the wrong place in the past so thank you. I'll give it another try.

 

So you think Frederick may have been moved into the 16th Bn in July? It sounds like there are a few possible scenarios that could fit his story.

 

Thanks again for the help,

 

Michael 

[Shiny]

15 hours ago, Banstead100 said:

Have you found him in the 1911 census? If not, then he might have extended his time to as much as 7 years with the colours, which would fit with him having attained the rank of sergeant, that usually took a while and probably required at the least a 1 year extension. If signed up for 7 years, he would have been out shortly before his wedding date, time enough to get a job with the railway. Will be interested to see if you can turn up any more info.

 

James

 

Hi All,

 

I've just managed to find him on the 1911 census, the whole family had been mis-transcribed as Runsey.

 

It says he is single, working as a railway porter and living with his parents and his 9 year old niece at 5 Springwell Terrace, Northallerton which matches his marriage register entry. His father is a railway signalman and I believe his brother died in 1903 so I wonder if that means his sister in law is now out of the picture as well.

 

Michael

[PRC]

27 minutes ago, Shiny said:

I've just managed to find him on the 1911 census, the whole family had been mis-transcribed as Runsey.

 

It says he is single, working as a railway porter and living with his parents and his 9 year old niece at 5 Springwell Terrace, Northallerton which matches his marriage register entry.

 

However that calls into question him being a 7 and 5 man - the 1911 Census of England & Wales was taken on the 2nd April 1911. He could have purchased an early discharge or was discharged on health \ discipline but then he would have been under no liability to be mobilised in August 1914.

 

Confusing !

 

Peter

 

 

[Shiny]

That's not so good then

[ss002d6252]

12 hours ago, Shiny said:

 

So James and Chris both think he was militia for a few weeks before signing up full time, that explains the second date on the record and the fact that there are only 4 pages in it with very little detail in it.

A very common route and the time period is about right.

 

In August 1904 the standard terms for still at 3 & 9

 

This is the annual army return to 30 Sep 1904

 

Craig

[Shiny]

Thanks a lot Craig,

 

So if he joined on the 22nd Aug 1904 he would have switched to the reserve on the 22nd Aug 1907 then in theory been on the reserve list until 22 Aug 1916 had events not overtaken things.

 

Would men on the reserve back then have had to report to a barracks and do annual training?

 

Michael

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, Shiny said:

Would men on the reserve back then have had to report to a barracks and do annual training?

Don't quote me but I think it was only every few years for a refresher.

Craig

[Shiny]

Ok thanks. 

 

Michael 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Shiny said:

So if he joined on the 22nd Aug 1904 he would have switched to the reserve on the 22nd Aug 1907 then in theory been on the reserve list until 22 Aug 1916 had events not overtaken things.

 

My understanding is that the “The rank engraved on this “1914 Star” is the permanent rank held on disembarkation with the Expeditionary Force, any subsequent promotion granted are not shown on the Star.”

 

So for him to have only served for three years, to have been mobilised at the start of August 1914 and within 6 weeks been permenently promoted Sergeant, (if he wasn't already at the time he was mobilised) seems a bit unusual. So may have originally extended his time in the colours and served more than three but less than seven.

 

Have you checked the civil records on Ancestry to see if there are any Trade Union references for him - the railway industry was heavily unionised. It may only be something as simple as him paying his dues, but at least it will put a tentative end-point on his time in the colours.

 

Cheers,

Peter