Derek Robertson Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 With the average Death Plaque now approaching the £50 mark it's time to reflect that there is a dishonest buck to be made out there. Listed on E-bay is a copy of a plaque - perfect apart from a missing name. How long is it going to be before replicas start carrying names? I've heard whispers from various sources since before Xmas that we may be on the verge of a glut of really clever, named plaques. The belief is that they carry common names as the sudden appearance of a second "unique name" would cause quite a stir. Replica Death Plaque Let's be careful out there folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 The Slippery Slope...........Thats the trouble with all Copies, Replicas,{Just Plain Fakes In My Opinion};Whatever Name you decide to give them,there is always some clever dick who isnt content with just filling a space & tries the route to riches by Faking up desirable items.If these Charlatans who make this Cr*p,were ignored they'd go away,but Sadly I expect they will get Customers & the problem will snowball ,A Sad Day for History & Its Preservation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 I thought i would answer a few things and put it in Dereks thread. I used to be involved in the Antiques trade and soon found out where the money lay, it wasnt in the Antiques but in the stuff which was made yesterday and sold as the real mcoy. I have talked it over with various people on the forum and now i will tell you of how big and easy the potential scam is here on the forum. The forum is one big mass of info not only on your relatives, but also on any information i require to carry out my scam and make a lot of money. MEDALS All I have to do is take various medals which are worth money to a tool maker who can quite cheaply today produce me the dies which I would need to stamp these medals out. I should say not more than a couple of thousand for each medal. I would then take these to some far eastern country as a lot of other business men are doing with other things, and find a small business who will then stamp out these medals and then employ someone to sit there and distress/age put a petina on the medals. If you imagine that the cost of stamping the medal out including the materials was say £10.00 sterling, and to age the medal would cost say another £10.00 sterling with the far eastern wages, you would have produced exact copies of medals worth a lot more for say £20.00. I would say that you could get this done for no more than £20.00 for each medal, and probably even less. Ageing a piece of metal is very easy as all it requires is wear and discolour and knocking about, and if it is done properly you can fool a hell of a lot of people. DEATH PLAQUES All the same principles apply here as in the medals. Exactly the same principles apply except that I believe that death pennies were cast and not stamped. Then again I would say that they could be produced for a small amount of money out in the far east. DEATH SCROLLS If you made the paper out of the exact raw materials as what the original scrolls were made out of which may have been hemp or some other material like that, and then you have the ink made out of the same materials as well and then print it exactly the same using the same methods and what was done on the originals, you can reproduce something which is exactly the same as the originals even to an expert with a magnifying glass. All you need to do then is age the scroll and paper has got to be the easiest thing to age. In one recent thread it was said that scrolls could sell up to £2000.00. it is illegal to purchase the paper that paper money is printed on, but these scrolls would have a higher value than paper money and it would be perfectly legal. On a recent conversation with other members it was discovered that the wanted memorial death penny plaques on his site alone, if you valued each one for £50 and some would sell for a lot more, then the potential value on that site alone is in excess of £50,000.00. Add together scrolls value and medals value and the potential reproduction scam is huge and that is just for one site. There are a few other sites around where people are often asked to put wanted relative's information as regards medals and plaques, so it just shows you how much money there is to be made out of doing this scam. If I was going to do this scam all I have to do is look at the medals for sales and wants sections in this forum, download all the threads and I have a huge market, not only of what people want, but of all the other bits of information you have so willingly put on a forum which is available to over 6 billion people on this planet, these threads contain personal information of what you want and what you have. The rest of the forum contains all the information I need on all of your relatives to reproduce medals, scrolls, memorial plaques and anything else I think I can make money out of and this is just one site. Because of the interest in WW1 and your relatives that is why the value of this stuff is gaining day by day. So to think that no one would ever do this is extremely foolish because where anybody can make money however immoral or bent and twisted you may think it may be, believe me they will do it and probably have already started. This was the same in the antiques game when people wanted something there was always somebody there to reproduce it for them last week and as long as they thought they had what they wanted they were happy and money had changed hands and the deal was done. I am not talking about repros for repros sake I am talking about somebody who knows the potential and has to get in at the right time at the beginning and do it properly not half heartedly but taking the time to produce something which will fool 90% of the people. We are not talking about Victoria Crosses here, we are talking about the common medals which were produced and given out in their tens of thousands. This is why I and others think it would be better if the information that I have talked about above is kept in a section of the forum where only members can view, but even then you wont be able to stop it as in a recent thread proved, all you have to do is google a name and if it finds this forum it will most likely have all the information on this man that is needed to produce their wares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 12 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2005 how big a step is it from whats listed until we get a name one? That's the big question. From recent conversations some parties think that the process has already began. And from the statistics that Nigel has used as examples, it only takes one determined individual with a working knowledge of the subject to come into the market with a plaque scam and he could make a tidy profit before anyone noticed what had happened. The item listed today on E-bay is a reproduction BUT.............................. .................where did it come from? is it marked as a repro? who is behind it? came names be added? Worrying times and as HarryBettsMCDCM says, it's quite a sad day. What we need is an expert in metalworking to tell us how easy it would be to move from producing a replica to making a replica with a name on it. Not very difficult I would have thought. The thread below seems to explain the process: Plaque Moulding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 12 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2005 There are a few other sites around where people are often asked to put wanted relative's information as regards medals and plaques, so it just shows you how much money there is to be made out of doing this scam. Nigel, From the inception of the Pals' Death Penny site that I administer, I thought that it was only proper that no clues to the identity of the person seeking the plaque/medal were available. If the "seeker" chooses to ask for his "wants" via the Forum then it is his own choice - but like you I think that it is safer and more prudent to e-mail me direct so that "wants" are not put into the common domain. However, this is a different subject to the possible scam of selling newly created medals/scroll/ death plaques as originals. I think we'll all have to be extra vigilant from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 (edited) I remember reading a long long time ago on the forum that someone had seen the plans for the moulding machines, which had been assumed to be lost. Death plaque forgeries Has anyone ever dealt with the eBay seller? Does anyone know how many blanks were made? Not many surely, and presumably many early trial efforts were melted down again. Edited 12 February , 2005 by Kate Wills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 Thanks all for the alert and information. Kate I read the earlier thread with great interest. Did anyone find out whether it was real or a fake? Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 Any medals and death pennies/plaques, if i was reproducing them to be sold as the real item, if they didnt come up to scratch, i would sell them as REPRO instead of melting them back down again, because if they get on to the open market, it only inforces the fact that the ones that have been sold as the real mcoy are infact genuine, and you can easily tell the REPRO'S--------------Come on wakey wakey its a game with a lot of money at stake, it will only last for a short number of years then you have to do something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 Worrying times and as HarryBettsMCDCM says, it's quite a sad day. What we need is an expert in metalworking to tell us how easy it would be to move from producing a replica to making a replica with a name on it. Not very difficult I would have thought. As i said to age and put a patina on metal is very easy, just time consuming, but if you are doing a batch of a 100 at a time, well worth the fiddling about, i dont know if i am allowed on here to say some of the process's, or whether it would be wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 Worrying times and as HarryBettsMCDCM says, it's quite a sad day. What we need is an expert in metalworking to tell us how easy it would be to move from producing a replica to making a replica with a name on it. Not very difficult I would have thought. As i said to age and put a patina on metal is very easy, just time consuming, but if you are doing a batch of a 100 at a time, well worth the fiddling about, i dont know if i am allowed on here to say some of the process's, or whether it would be wise. Nigel, Best not to tell us. It might give some people ideas and simply terrify others that anything can be treated in such a way!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 It is relatively easy to cast a plaque with a unique name on it!! Just think of all the engine parts, valves, pipefittings that are produced worldwide with near unique numbers cast in them. For a small bronze foundry that would fit in a garage you could supply the world market. All you need is a little technique and experiencei n bronze casting. The originals were mass produced and are only unique in their sentimental value. Roop (the engineer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pte1643 Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 Has anyone ever dealt with the eBay seller? I've dealt with Sploggon... Can't for the life of me remember his real name though! I bought an Atlantic Star from him early last year, I asked him as to the authenticity of it. The answer he gave me is that he never deals in Fakes / Forgeries or Repro's, and that it would come with a "No Quibble Full Refund" if not satisfied. He states, in the listing for the plaque, that he never usually deals with Fakes / Repro's etc. I found him a genuine guy, I would say he's selling them in good faith. What others choose to do with them afterwards is anybodies guess. But we all think we know what's comming... Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 February , 2005 Share Posted 12 February , 2005 the sudden appearance of a second "unique name" would cause quite a stir. This actually has happened numerous times with original plaques. Due to some admin error, duplicate plaques of some "unique names" were actually made. Not just with plaques either. I've seen this happen with 1914 and 1914/15 Stars also (sometimes there are cases of a soldier receiving both!). I've also come across cases where a second MM has been issued instead of a bar to the first. One of the most common items that was "duplicate issued" was the QSA. This could on occasion be issued twice to the same person with different details and clasps. None of this was supposed to have happened , by the way, but did nonetheless. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 13 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2005 The repro plaque listed on E-bay had its origins at "Toad Hall". Suffice to say it is not made of the same material as an original and I would also think that it is slighter smaller than an original. The seller may have made the differences plain on his item description BUT at least he offers a full refund if not fully satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 13 February , 2005 Share Posted 13 February , 2005 What others choose to do with them afterwards is anybodies guess. But we all think we know what's comming... I know what's coming. I'll have them engraved with the names of my great uncles and add them to the replica 1914-15 Trios and replica scrolls I have at home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pte1643 Posted 14 February , 2005 Share Posted 14 February , 2005 I know what's coming. I'll have them engraved with the names of my great uncles and add them to the replica 1914-15 Trios and replica scrolls I have at home Clan... You are obviously going to use them in the manner intended, and not for monetary gain. I bet they'll look excellent in a display, to commemerate your family members. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 14 February , 2005 Share Posted 14 February , 2005 Mark - They're going to be a Christmas present for my father (Edward & William where his mum's brothers). I'm going to add some cap badges and I'm also in the process of doing some selective 'colouring' of black & white photos (thanks to Photoshop) of Edward & William (the same as those on the Long, Long Trail) to add to the other items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 14 February , 2005 Share Posted 14 February , 2005 I think that with Medals & Plaques & Scrolls,uniquely amongst Collectables there are basically Two Camps, as it were,There are The Family Researchers who Wish to put together a Display of their Forebears Awards & Documentation,which for whatever reason is not available to them,which I can to some degree understand & on the Other hand there are the Collectors,who,like myself view these items with suspicion @ best & outright distain @ second best,This confliction would not occur in any other form of collecting/researching as no other items of Antique or Collectable are as Personal as these objects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 14 February , 2005 Share Posted 14 February , 2005 I think that with Medals & Plaques & Scrolls,uniquely amongst Collectables there are basically Two Camps, as it were,There are The Family Researchers who Wish to put together a Display of their Forebears Awards & Documentation,which for whatever reason is not available to them,which I can to some degree understand & on the Other hand there are the Collectors,who,like myself view these items with suspicion @ best & outright distain @ second best,This confliction would not occur in any other form of collecting/researching as no other items of Antique or Collectable are as Personal as these objects If that were so Harry, but with repro for repro's sake, there is no need to age them to look old and worn as the originals are, you could spray or dip a colour on which would be obvious to any collecter that the item was indeed repro, this is not what the referrence is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 14 February , 2005 Share Posted 14 February , 2005 I think that with Medals & Plaques & Scrolls,uniquely amongst Collectables there are basically Two Camps, as it were,There are The Family Researchers who Wish to put together a Display of their Forebears Awards & Documentation,which for whatever reason is not available to them,which I can to some degree understand & on the Other hand there are the Collectors,who,like myself view these items with suspicion @ best & outright distain @ second best,This confliction would not occur in any other form of collecting/researching as no other items of Antique or Collectable are as Personal as these objects If that were so Harry, but with repro for repro's sake, there is no need to age them to look old and worn as the originals are, you could spray or dip a colour on which would be obvious to any collecter that the item was indeed repro, Agreed Nigel,But I dont think that such items would Fool any "hardened" Collector,no more than would a Modern Day "Copy" Clarice Cliff Vase,or Cast Iron Money Box,collectors of those items,they would /might however fool the Novice & those who do not study their subject,Anyone trying to fool the Majority of Medal Collectors would soon come unstuck,having dealt with Centuries of Fakers,Light Brigade Charger Fakers,Bogus Mafeking Defenders,Waterloo Renames,The Whole Cap Badge Collecting World,WW2 German Collectables, Etc,Most would want & demand some form of guarantee,& would deal with those they are comfortable with,as with most things if it where to appear too good to be true then it probably is!As you say those with Criminal intent lack attention Span & would probably move on quickly,so the actual Hard work involved in researching the Names then Making the Plaques ,for sale to a relatively Small Potential Marketplace {with an unbelieveable Close knit Community,so Bad News travels exceedingly Quickly}would be of little appeal for a Quick Buck,when that could be had with a Bank of DVD Recorders & a Laser Printer,to a far wider Market,over a longer period The Medal Collectors Ethos pounded into us over our Cornflakes by the late Alec Purves:~ "Caveat Emptor" rings as true today as ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 14 February , 2005 Share Posted 14 February , 2005 I wonder if Pete Wood (Racing Teapots) is reading this thread and tempted to respond? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 14 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2005 But I dont think that such items would Fool any "hardened" Collector Just a few weeks ago a very nice Tank Corps 15/9/16 plaque appeared on E-bay. Such was the history behind this plaque that it eventually sold for nearly £200. No one got to get their hands on the plaque during the auction. That is a problem with the boom in online interest in plaques, medal etc. Euphoria and the panic of a potential great find being lost takes over. I'm not saying that this particular example was "iffy" but it only takes one seller on E-bay to list a dodgy plaque and an awful lot of people, both hardened and casual collectors could have their fingers burned. (And I wouldn't bank on E-bay sorting out the mess afterwards ) Caveat Emptor indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 15 February , 2005 Share Posted 15 February , 2005 I think that with Medals & Plaques & Scrolls,uniquely amongst Collectables there are basically Two Camps, as it were,There are The Family Researchers who Wish to put together a Display of their Forebears Awards & Documentation,which for whatever reason is not available to them,which I can to some degree understand & on the Other hand there are the Collectors,who,like myself view these items with suspicion @ best & outright distain @ second best I must fall into both camps here. I have been collecting medals since I was 12 years old (26 years ago, where does the time go?) and I don't see anything wrong in what I'm doing. The medals, although very good copies, have their flaws but these can be spotted especially when next to the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 15 February , 2005 Share Posted 15 February , 2005 Harry that just proves you only read what you wanted to, i am talking about people who have set up with the intention of doing nothing else but to decieve, because like i said if you read what i put------- " that is where the money is " Like i also said but you didnt read it----------we are not talking about Victoria Crosses just the common medals which where handed out in there 10's of thousands, and the easiest things to age and put a patina on is metal with no moving parts and paper-----------you are so obviously of the opinion that maybe you or a hardened collecter will never be fooled--------famous last words, as like i said it is intentional. On the contrary Nigel I did read it & read it all, I just happen to believe that it is not the Problem you imagine it could become & yes as a Very Hardened Collector of well over "44 Years Service";I do feel it would require a Faker to get up extremely early to beat me out of bed!,I wasn't talking VCs{I dont even think I mentioned Victoria Cross ~Please Read my post again!} or the like; the Problems that occurred when they did previously were with medals of a Medium value,but were worth more Named than unamed as issued,with Plaques & or Medals any sudden influx of Suddenly available ,previously unobtainable "Names" would most certainly cause Ripples" & as I said before the Medal Collecting Fraternity is such a Small world any wrong doings are soon noticed & widely reported{as has happened very recently regarding the re~appearance of formerly Split Trios Suddenly finding the Missing star,ALL of which had the same "Parent" in supply}To make a cast copy of a Plaque a pattern would have to be made,if taken from an original,there would be shrinkage of note in any subsequent casts,a New Pattern would have to be hand made & would ergo,be different,in many minor details{thats without varying Batch numbers,Mint marks etc.As for the WW1 Medals Dies would need to be Cut,as Medals are Struck,Not Cast,To obtain the "Gilt "Finish of a Victory would be nigh on impossible,without mint techniques,& The quantities of Silver required to make BWM in significant numbers would cause rumblings in the Bullion Markets,to fake these items from Scratch the set up costs would be phenomenal,and the returns unguaranteed,they would also need a very indepth knowledge of their subject matter,something few Crims would possess for such an involved Scam;Cheap Copies Yes They are sadkly here & I assume will always now be so,but top quality "exact designed to fool replica" items I think not,I just happen to be of a different opinion & have a little more faith in my fellow human beings! Keep Taking the Tablets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 15 February , 2005 Share Posted 15 February , 2005 Who said that anybody was going to remake every medal, i am talking of some people doing it for a very lucrative business with the info they have aquired here and elsewhere, not ordering 200 tons of silver bullion, and building a new factory calling it the British Mint PLC., and i never said they were a bunch of inadequate half illiterate dummies from Catford. Faith in your fellow human beings-----you are so wrong Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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