Identification

[BillyH]

In 1917 the Birkenhead News reported that the same Richard Humphreys had originally enlisted with the 6th King's Liverpool (a totally different cap badge to 'normal' KLR badge or the Pals badge - or the one in the photo!) but that he was "later transferred to the Monmouthshire Regiment"

Haven't found him on a medal roll yet though.

 

BillyH.

[Stevebh]

Hi guys. Yes the original photo was copied on my iPad.

 It seems general consensus is Welch regiment. Thanks Phil for possible medal role so as I’ve said I will get all details tomorrow which may assist further.

 I can’t thank you enough for all the advice, it’s been driving me mad getting no where. Cheers all. Steve.

[BillyH]

Not 100% concensus though Steve.

The article from the Birkenhead News dated 5th May 1917 is attached below, together with a photo of him (he is definitely the same man in your photo, even down to the glasses!) Of course the newspaper may have made an error?

The cap badge on the newspaper photo could be Monmouthshire, but it is very indistinct.

I can only find one medal roll that fits the above, and this man ended up in the Labour Corps.

 

BillyH.

 

Edited 28 February , 2020 by BillyH
Newspaper date added

[BillyH]

I am definitely not a cap badge expert!

I had assumed that the Monmouthshire cap badge that I thought may be in the newspaper photo looked like this one below. I now think this one is WW2 so I take that comment back.

 

BillyH.

[PhilB]

WW1 pattern:-

[Stevebh]

Hi Billy we’ll blow me down, uncanny resemblance he did have relatives called Hugh and John I think.

will dig all his ancestry out this afternoon. Much appreciated, got more info in days than weeks, wish I had known about you all before.

steve

[FROGSMILE]

This is the unique badge of the 6th Battalion King’s (Liverpool) Regiment.  I suspect that he did not regain infantry levels of fitness after wounding in 1916 and so was sent to the Labour Corps.  From there it is quite likely that with much needed skills for armaments manufacture at Cammel Lairds he would have been combed out to go back to the factory.  This became increasingly common from 1917 onwards after the scandal of inefficient scales of ammunition manufacture that had to be addressed by the new PM, Lloyd George.
 

The Monmouthshire Regiment had three separate units, 1st, 2nd and 3rd, each of which had 1st, 2nd and 3rd Line battalions, making a total of 9.  Only the 1st unit of the Monmouthshire’s deployed overseas, sending its 1st line battalion initially and then its 2nd line in 1917, both went to F&F.  The other 7 battalions carried out home defence whilst at the same time feeding the battalion(s) overseas.  As well as providing drafts for their own regiment I suspect that some that were sent initially to the Infantry Base Depot in F&F were then siphoned off to other regiment’s battalions in need of casualty replacements, especially those associated with Wales such as the Welsh Regiment.

 

It seems to me then that a likely sequence might have been:

 

1.  Enlisted 6th Kings - in Britain.

2.  Surplus and sent in a draft to a Monmouthshire Regiment battalion also in Britain and underwent basic training.
3.  Sent in a draft to F&F IBD.

4.  From IBD sent to Welsh Regiment as a replacement and subsequently wounded.

5.  Treatment and convalescence back in Britain.

6.  Medical Board and sent to Labour Corps unit in Britain.

7.  Combed out as man with skills useful for arms manufacture back at Cammel Laird.

 

NB.  When the newspaper did the article they were probably reliant of information from family, who may not have fully understood his bewildering movement between units.

 

 

Edited 28 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Stevebh]

Hi again, here are the details as promised.

Richard Humphreys was born23/3/1896 and died 23/8/1952. 

 He married Winifred Eveline Beaufort 12/1/1921. She was born in Belfast 12/1896 and died 4/41.

In 1911 census he was living at 63-65 Bentinck st Birkenhead which I believe was the family pub called The Beresford. He eventually became licensee post war.

His father was called John 1865-1936 and mother Margaret Hughes 1873-1929. He had 3 brothers, John born about 1898, Hugh 1900 and Thomas 1908.

at outbreak of the war this would have made him about 18-19.

the only other relatives called Hugh was an uncle Hugh Hughes which fits news article.

the photo is uncanny but looks healthier. Do you know what date the article was written. I am also wondering if the photo is his brother or my family one is confused as it is only verbal confirmation, especially with badges confusion.

anyway hope this helps and I will pursue other routes.

cheers.

[Stevebh]

That is an interesting timeline for his uncle Hugh and I think he remained at Lairds until his death on 23/11/1921 being employed as shipyard labourer. His cause of death is listed as pulmonary tuberculosis, maybe he was gassed?

my dad thinks his own dad Richard was also invalided out after gassing because he apparently lost a lung after the war and died of advanced cancer of lung.

[BillyH]

25 minutes ago, Stevebh said:

Do you know what date the article was written.

Steve,   I edited the date into post #28 earlier today.

Was John Humphreys his brother? There was a photo of him too and they have a family likeness :

 

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

This is the unique badge of the 6th Battalion King’s (Liverpool) Regiment.

Frogsmile.  This is why you are the expert, and I haven't got a clue!  I was well aware of the 6th Battalion's different badge but I just couldn't see it in the poor newspaper photo. Now you have pointed it out I can see the horn at the bottom.

 

BillyH.

[Stevebh]

Hi Billy didn’t see that date, 1917.

yes he had 2 brothers John and Thomas. So suspect this John as was slightly younger.

i have no idea of Richards service history or injuries apart from limited family report.

can see the badge confusion but still think the original photo one looks like feather but this may be the earlier of the photos.

as far as I know when he was discharged he returned to the family pub, not sure what labour corps did and this may just been his uncle (in law) Hughes.

[FROGSMILE]

On 28/02/2020 at 13:33, BillyH said:

Steve,   I edited the date into post #28 earlier today.

Was John Humphreys his brother? There was a photo of him too and they have a family likeness :

 

 

 

Frogsmile.  This is why you are the expert, and I haven't got a clue!  I was well aware of the 6th Battalion's different badge but I just couldn't see it in the poor newspaper photo. Now you have pointed it out I can see the horn at the bottom.

 

BillyH.

 

Thanks for the kind words Billy but I don't see myself as a particular expert, I'm just old and have had a singly focused interest for most of my life.  Reading the article that you posted again I can see that I inadvertently mixed up the service of Hugh and Richard Humphreys.  It was the latter who was initially in the 6th Kings followed by Monmouth's/Welsh, and the former who was in the King's Liverpool's proper before returning to Cammel Lairds.

Edited 29 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Stevebh]

Thank you Frogsmile for the advice. I will post everything tomorrow. I have registered with Ancestry, my heritage and forces records but drawn a blank but I have most details about his life. Cheers.

HeyBilly how did you find the article in the Birkenhead news?

[FROGSMILE]

On 28/02/2020 at 13:42, Stevebh said:

Hi Billy didn’t see that date, 1917.

yes he had 2 brothers John and Thomas. So suspect this John as was slightly younger.

i have no idea of Richards service history or injuries apart from limited family report.

can see the badge confusion but still think the original photo one looks like feather but this may be the earlier of the photos.

as far as I know when he was discharged he returned to the family pub, not sure what labour corps did and this may just been his uncle (in law) Hughes.

The original photo is definitely Welsh Regiment, Steve, as is confirmed by the cloth shoulder title (see images I posted), I think you’re perhaps understandably getting a bit confused.  The question was the possible sequence of how he got into the Welsh Regiment, when the newspaper article says Monmouthshire.  I tried to show how he might have got there.  
 

The photo of John in the newspaper article definitely shows a Royal Artillery cap badge, and together with the bandolier that fits the details in the article.  The photo of Richard in the article doesn’t show Monmouthshire or Welsh, but it might well be the 6th King’s badge I posted, although the picture of him in the newspaper article isn’t clear enough to be 100% certain.  It seems the best fit though.

 

NB.  You might find it helps to comprehend things better if you right notes against each name. I know it’s not easy to follow if you’re not that familiar with British regiments of that time.

Edited 29 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Stevebh]

Hi yes it got a little confusing especially with possible uncle Hugh too.. much appreciated advice, will try and find him with regiment number supplied by Billy.

[Stevebh]

Thank you Frogsmile for the advice. I will post everything tomorrow. I have registered with Ancestry, my heritage and forces records but drawn a blank but I have most details about his life. Cheers.

sorry meant to ask what the terms f and f and Aldi I do you referenced in your reply.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Stevebh said:

Thank you Frogsmile for the advice. I will post everything tomorrow. I have registered with Ancestry, my heritage and forces records but drawn a blank but I have most details about his life. Cheers.

sorry meant to ask what the terms f and f and Aldi I do you referenced in your reply.

Sorry Steve, F&F is just shorthand for France and Flanders, by far the principal, but not the only operational theatre of WW1. 

[BillyH]

10 hours ago, Stevebh said:

Hey Billy how did you find the article in the Birkenhead news?

 

Just the result of hours and hours weeks and weeks spent in Birkenhead (and Wallasey) Archives.

A highly recommended pastime though!

 

BillyH.

[PhilB]

12 hours ago, Stevebh said:

sorry meant to ask what the terms f and f and Aldi I do you referenced in your reply.

Just in case that’s a misprint for IBD, Infantry Base Depot!

[Stevebh]

Hi guys well managed to confirm regiment details on Ancestry and link with Monmouthshire regiment.

hope to contact their museum now to ascertain where and when he served and his injuries.

my dad has been delighted to hear of these developments.

can anyone tell me what medals he would have been entitled to receive as we might consider obtains them.

[BillyH]

His medal index card confirms a British War Medal and Victory Medal.

 

BillyH.

[Stevebh]

Thanks Billy have now found him on ancestry. I read others accounts who said relatives also had a silver star? What was reason for this?

Its a shame I can’t find anything about his injuries yet so will try contacting Monmouthshire regiment now.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 hours ago, Stevebh said:

I read others accounts who said relatives also had a silver star?

What accounts are they and what exactly do they say?

Edited 2 March , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[BillyH]

His Labour Corps number (617784) was issued in about June to August 1918, and these men mainly served in PoW Companies (source 'No Labour, No Battle' by Starling and Lee).

He may have been transferred to the Labour Corps due to a breakdown in his health though, not necessarily due to wounds.

 

BillyH.

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Stevebh said:

Thanks Billy have now found him on ancestry. I read others accounts who said relatives also had a silver star? What was reason for this?

I think you are probably referring to the ‘silver rosette’ (a silver star is an American thing).  The silver rosette was just as described, but very small and superimposed on the Aug-Nov 1914 Star ribbon, when the ribbon alone was fitted to the tunic, rather than the full medal, which was only worn on formal occasions.  The silver rosette’s purpose was to differentiate it [erratum] as the ribbon of a man who had served within gunshot, as opposed to those awarded the less prescribed 1914-15 star ribbon, which had the same colours and belonged to a similar looking medal, also shaped as a star. 

The Aug-Nov 1914 star was only issued to men of the original British Expeditionary Force (BEF) - effectively men of the old Regular Army Divisions, whereas the 1914-15 star was issued to the reinforcements that served between those dates (after November 1914). Men who deployed for the first time to F&F after 1915 did not receive a star at all, but did receive the War and Victory medals.

Edited 2 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE