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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Identification


Stevebh

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Hi I need help identifying my grandads service from this photo.He was born 1896 so would have been only 18. He lived on the Wirral which is now Merseyside but then would have been Lancashire. Family think he was gassed so may not have served fully.

 I can’t make out insignia but they look distinctive. Any help greatly appreciated re regiment etc.

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468E4349-D925-4353-BF4D-C4D00E7A492C.jpeg

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Hello Stevebh, welcome to the forum, at first glace it could well be a Kings Liverpool cap badge which would fit with Merseyside. If we had his name, then that might help too. Regards, Bob.

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Hi Bob thanks for response. Hi name was Richard Humphreys, he lived in Tranmere, Birkenhead. He was born on 23/3/1896.

I also thought of Kings Liverpool but they seemed to have liver bird shape whereas this looks like Welch regiment. 
I have been told his arm one might be bombardier, which is infantry.

I can not identify the cloth sleeve badge at all or make what is on his shoulder.

I have tried ancestry search but no joy, might be his records lost but without regiment seems to be dead end.

anyway any help appreciated.

steve.

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Cap badge looks to be The Welsh Regiment or The Prince of Wales's Leinster Regiment (badge effectively identical except for the words on the bottom 'scroll'). That suggests (but does not guarantee that) he did not volunteer at the outbreak of the war for his local regiment. Instead more likely he joined up under one of the various later schemes or was conscripted and ended up being sent to wherever there was a need for men.

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Thanks for that. Yes shape appears feather like not stallion like Kings.

 He may well have been conscripted and I have no genitive age.

 Any ideas on other markings. Lower arm looks like pineapple/ grenade shape to me and don’t understand the cloth one with the 3 segment/ 2 diagonals.

cheers anyway. Steve.

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11 minutes ago, Stevebh said:

the cloth one with the 3 segment/ 2 diagonals.

Hi Steve, this could be some sort of battalion identification patch. We have to wait for longstanding member Frogsmile to see your OP, as he is a wizz on all things uniform/badges etc. I see what you mean about the  The Welsh Regiment badge now.  Regards, Bob.

Edited by Bob Davies
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15 minutes ago, Stevebh said:

Thanks for that. Yes shape appears feather like not stallion like Kings.

 He may well have been conscripted and I have no genitive age.

 Any ideas on other markings. Lower arm looks like pineapple/ grenade shape to me and don’t understand the cloth one with the 3 segment/ 2 diagonals.

cheers anyway. Steve.

The cap badge looks like Welsh Regt. The upper badges on his arm are battalion patches, the lowest badge is, I think, a bombers badge (trained grenade thrower). 

 

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I think I can make out TM on the upper sleeve. trench Mortar? @FROGSMILE I'm sure will be able to help 

Michelle 

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I think that Michelle has cracked it.  He seems to be a member of a Divisional Trench Mortar Battalion (TMB) and wearing a Welsh Regiment cap badge.  I too can see the letters TM at the top of his arm, above his blue-coloured TM grenade badge.

Like the Machine Gunners the TMs were initially brigaded in TM companies, but unlike the MG (who were absorbed by the MGC), they retained their regimental cap badges.  In 1917 the TM Companies were merged to form Divisional TM Battalions with the men still retaining their parent cap badges.

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Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 hour ago, Stevebh said:

He lived on the Wirral which is now Merseyside but then would have been Lancashire.

Small point.

Wirral was part of Cheshire, not Lancashire before 1974.

I only mention it as there are surviving Absent Voters Lists for parts of Wirral.

I think Birkenhead East AVL is at Birkenhead Library

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
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3 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

I think I can make out TM on the upper sleeve. trench Mortar? @FROGSMILE I'm sure will be able to help 

Michelle 

Brilliant bit of working out, well done Michelle and all :-) Regards, Bob.

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Thanks for that. Yes shape appears feather like not stallion like Kings.

 He may well have been conscripted and I have no genitive age.

 Any ideas on other markings. Lower arm looks like pineapple/ grenade shape to me and don’t understand the cloth one with the 3 segment/ 2 diagonals.

cheers anyway. Steve.

 

well thank you one and all for all the input. At least I can try looking through different regiments now and where they served. I would like to know where he went and visit in the future. Thought may have joined Irish regiment with family links but Welsh more likely re location.

my dad will be delighted to know this as he has no idea about his dad as he died when only 57.

will let you know if I get anywhere.

steve

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1 hour ago, Stevebh said:

Thanks for that. Yes shape appears feather like not stallion like Kings.

 He may well have been conscripted and I have no genitive age.

 Any ideas on other markings. Lower arm looks like pineapple/ grenade shape to me and don’t understand the cloth one with the 3 segment/ 2 diagonals.

cheers anyway. Steve.

 

well thank you one and all for all the input. At least I can try looking through different regiments now and where they served. I would like to know where he went and visit in the future. Thought may have joined Irish regiment with family links but Welsh more likely re location.

my dad will be delighted to know this as he has no idea about his dad as he died when only 57.

will let you know if I get anywhere.

steve


If there’s an Irish connection then that offers at least some circumstantial evidence that he might have been in the Leinster Regiment (RC), whose cap badge was very similar to that of the Welsh Regiment.  Unfortunately there’s no metal shoulder title to help differentiate.

 

NB.  The more usual and standard badge for the Leinster Regiment had much more upright feathers, but demand during WW1 led to use of the same type as used by the Welsh Regiment and that is what is shown below.

 

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Edited by FROGSMILE
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Hi well my grandma was from Belfast although he was Wirral born. Not sure if this would been a factor at all or did he enlist  / conscripted by proximity ? 
I will try Welsh route first but has been difficult with no rank or service number and his records may be in the large number of destroyed records.

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9 minutes ago, Stevebh said:

Hi well my grandma was from Belfast although he was Wirral born. Not sure if this would been a factor at all or did he enlist  / conscripted by proximity ? 
I will try Welsh route first but has been difficult with no rank or service number and his records may be in the large number of destroyed records.


If you can provide his full name, date of birth, and address, perhaps confirming as much as you can from the pre-war census, there are some excellent detectives on the forum who will assist in tracking down any Medal Index Card, and any potential pension, or other records that there might be.  Quite a bit can be dug up that way.

 

If he enlisted at Belfast the usual regiment would have been the Royal Irish Rifles, but as a conurbation with a larger male population than other parts many men from there were channeled to other Irish regiments via reinforcement drafts.  This occurred throughout the war.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Before you try to unearth information  from other sources, can I ask you about your original photo.

I presume there is an original print somewhere, that you have copied and posted here.

Is the image you posted a snap taken on a mobile phone or camera, or is it taken as a High resolution scan on a flatbed scanner?

If it is a phone or camera snap, could you try to get it scanned at the highest possible resolution, particularly the cap badge, the shoulder titles and badges?

You might find that you already have answers to lots of your questions and it will direct in which direction your research  should go next.

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25 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Certainly looks like TM but what would the rest of the title be? (3 more letters?)

I don't think it is TM, I think the whole thing reads WELSH.   Pete.

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30 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Certainly looks like TM but what would the rest of the title be? (3 more letters?)


Probably the Brigade number Phil.  The TM Companies were numbered as per their brigade, the later Divisional TM Battalions, as per the divisional number.  Most divisions had two digits, many brigades had three.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Yes I can see it now and I agree.  The title looked straight to me and that didn’t seem to fit with a WELSH cloth title, but looking again I can see that it is a khaki drab type, albeit not seen from the best angle.  A good spot by Pete.

 

NB.  It’s possible also that the badge is actually that of a bomber.

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Edited by FROGSMILE
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I can only see medal cards of  2 men with that name and Welsh Regiment, which cuts down the odds considerably!

Edited by PhilB
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On 26/02/2020 at 15:20, Stevebh said:

He lived on the Wirral which is now Merseyside but then would have been Lancashire.

 

Wirral has never been in Lancashire  :w00t:

 

BillyH (Wirral)

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Thank you Frogsmile for the advice. I will post everything tomorrow. I have registered with Ancestry, my heritage and forces records but drawn a blank but I have most details about his life. Cheers.

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33 minutes ago, BillyH said:

 

Wirral has never been in Lancashire  :w00t:

 

BillyH (Wirral)

I did spot that (Post #10)

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
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