WWI - Search for Great-Grandfather Alfred George Ashby

[Selina]

I have attached a document I found online that I believe it is my great-grandfather Alfred George Ashby.  I just am 100% not certain because he lived in Northamptonshire all his life.  I am not very knowledgeable of these matters and wonder why would he not be in the Northamptonshire Regiment?  I am hoping I can confirm his identity by other records, both group/individual pictures that may be out there of the 9th Battalion, diaries etc or even if there may be a record of when he was in the field hospital in France for 9 months?  Is any of this possible?  Please direct me as to where can I locate this type of information if it exists?  My 78 year old mum was raised by her grandparents while both her parents served during WWII and her Pap survived being shot up with Shrapnel in France and she remembers when she was little he had a piece by his bedside.  He rarely spoke about the Great War but she recalls a mention of a man opposite him in the field hospital suffering the after effects of Mustard Gas.  When my great-grandfather came to on the battle field in France he remembered seeing a dead horse (s) and hearing men with "Londoners with Cockney accent saying "Here's another bleeder alive over here".  How relieved he must have been to hear those words from his very own countrymen... Our hope is to order his War Medals from a recommended reputable private medal dealer as well. Do you have any suggestions of how to find out any other medals he may have been entitled to?  Reputable medal dealers? 

 

I appreciate all the help you can lend.

Skm_bizhubc20021310550.pdf

[ss002d6252]

Quote

 

I have attached a document I found online that I believe it is my great-grandfather Alfred George Ashby.  I just am 100% not certain because he lived in Northamptonshire all his life.  I am not very knowledgeable of these matters and wonder why would he not be in the Northamptonshire Regiment?

 

Any geographical niceties went out the window pretty early on and the army simply sent a man wherever there was a space for them so he may or may not have been in a local regiment.

 

Quote

or even if there may be a record of when he was in the field hospital in France for 9 months

Do you know roughly when this was ?

 

Do you when he was born or who his parents/siblings were ?

 

Craig

[Pat Atkins]

Welcome to the forum, Selina. I've just had a quick look at the medal rolls on Ancestry - do you have any reason other than the names Alfred George Ashby to believe this Norfolk Regt man is your Great-grandfather? Certainly doesn't mean he isn't your relative, of course; however, it's worth considering that the records aren't always 100% in giving first and middle names, so he could perhaps be recorded as e.g. Alfred G Ashby, A.G. Ashby, Alfred Ashby, or A. Ashby.

 

As Craig suggests, if you have any other biographical details (date of birth, marriage, where he lived for example) it would definitely help in trying to narrow things down - there are many very knowledgeable Forum members who may be able to contribute. Craig is also quite right to point out that many men served in regiments with no local connection (Londoners in Scottish regiments, and so on), unless they were members of their local Territorial battalion.

 

Cheers, Pat

[Selina]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

Any geographical niceties went out the window pretty early on and the army simply sent a man wherever there was a space for them so he may or may not have been in a local regiment.

 

Do you know roughly when this was ?  My mum thinks he entered when he was sixteen years of age approx. 1916 right after his dad died George Ashby (served in the Boer War) 

 

Do you when he was born or who his parents/siblings were ?  Born 1899, his parents were George Ashby & Kate Ashby nee Farmer.  Siblings: Frank Ashby (served in WWI too), Nora Ashby and Frances Ashby

 

Craig

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Selina said:

I have attached a document I found online that I believe it is my great-grandfather Alfred George Ashby.  I just am 100% not certain because he lived in Northamptonshire all his life.  I am not very knowledgeable of these matters and wonder why would he not be in the Northamptonshire Regiment? 

 

The birth records for an Alfred George Ashby born in Northamptonshire show only three possible candidates.

 

Alfred George Ashby, birth registed in the Northampton District in Q3 1852 - which almost certainly make him too old to have seen active service !

 

Alfred George G. Ashby, birth registed in the Northampton District in Q2 1895, (death record Northampton Q1 1988 gives date of birth 23rd February 1895).

 

Alfred George Ashby, birth registed in the Northampton District in Q3 1899, (death record Northampton Q1 1973 gives date of birth 23rd July 1899), mothers' maiden name Farmer.

 

The service number 39178 wouldn't rule out either. Difficult to be sure but I think it's mid to late-1917 issue. The 9th Battalion was also the unit he served with overseas, so he would have trained in the UK, possibly even with one of the Training Battalions of the Northamptonshire, and then been shipped to an Infantry Base Depot in France. To the best of my knowledge the Northamptons and the Norfolks shared a couple of these, so would have drawn on a common pool.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edit - apologies, just seen I've cross-posted  - and welcome to the forum

Edited 15 February , 2020 by PRC
Cross-posted

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

 

The birth records for an Alfred George Ashby born in Northamptonshire show only three possible candidates.

 

Alfred George Ashby, birth registed in the Northampton District in Q3 1852 - which almost certainly make him too old to have seen active service !

 

Alfred George G. Ashby, birth registed in the Northampton District in Q2 1895, (death record Northampton Q1 1988 gives date of birth 23rd February 1895).

 

Alfred George Ashby, birth registed in the Northampton District in Q3 1899, (death record Northampton Q1 1973 gives date of birth 23rd July 1899), mothers' maiden name Farmer.

 

The service number 39178 wouldn't rule out either. Difficult to be sure but I think it's mid to late-1917 issue. The 9th Battalion was also the unit he served with overseas, so he would have trained in the UK, possibly even with one of the Training Battalions of the Northamptonshire, and then been shipped to an Infantry Base Depot in France. To the best of my knowledge the Northamptons and the Norfolks shared a couple of these, so would have drawn on a common pool.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

Seems the last birth is the one - matches the post from Selina that crossed with yours.

Craig

[Selina]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

The birth records for an Alfred George Ashby born in Northamptonshire show only three possible candidates.

 

Alfred George Ashby, birth registed in the Northampton District in Q3 1852 - which almost certainly make him too old to have seen active service !

 

Alfred George G. Ashby, birth registed in the Northampton District in Q2 1895, (death record Northampton Q1 1988 gives date of birth 23rd February 1895).

 

Alfred George Ashby, birth registed in the Northampton District in Q3 1899, (death record Northampton Q1 1973 gives date of birth 23rd July 1899), mothers' maiden name Farmer.

 

The service number 39178 wouldn't rule out either. Difficult to be sure but I think it's mid to late-1917 issue. The 9th Battalion was also the unit he served with overseas, so he would have trained in the UK, possibly even with one of the Training Battalions of the Northamptonshire, and then been shipped to an Infantry Base Depot in France. To the best of my knowledge the Northamptons and the Norfolks shared a couple of these, so would have drawn on a common pool.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edit - apologies, just seen I've cross-posted  - and welcome to the forum

Mum and I are so grateful for this information.  You found my great-grandfather the last entry as he was Alfred George Ashby born on 23, July 1899.  Thank you for clarifying the confusion.  Any other thoughts on how I can find out more information and where to look>

[Michelle Young]

Have you had a look at the Long Long Trail as recommended in the preamble to the subforum? 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/forum/1-soldiers-and-their-units/

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/

 

Michelle 

 

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Selina said:

My mum thinks he entered when he was sixteen years of age approx. 1916

 

The most likely scenario is that he was called up on reaching age 18, (July 1917) – conscription was introduced in the spring of 1916 so there was practically no more volunteering.

 

He would have trained in the UK , but held back from being deployed overseas at that point until he reached the age of 19  - so he would have been marked to go overseas in July 1918.

 

However, with the significant losses suffered by the British Army in March & April 1918 in the German Spring Offensive, this was brought down to 18 and a half. As he was already passed that age he would have been sent overseas immediately.

 

A look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website shows five other Norfolk Regiment men with 5-digit service numbers that start 391xx. The earliest died on the 7th August 1918. It’s only a very rough and ready guide, but given the rates of attrition amongst infantryman it can be a general indicator of roughly when they started to reach the battlefield.

 

Hopefully one of the pals here will be able to check out the official casualty lists – if he was a combat casualty, (as opposed to illness or accidental injury), then he will appear there with a brief note of the town\village of his next of kin.

 

If they don’t then you can either wade through on the National Libray of Scotland website, try a search on the likes of FindMyPast, (not sure than Ancestry has them), or try the British Newspaper Archive, or the newspaper sources of most genealogy sites if your subscription gives you access .

 

Incidentally, if you live in the UK, your local public library will almost certainly subscribe to the British Newspaper Archive, so worth checking it out there.

 

Hopefully one of those sources will help confirm that 39178 Alfred George Ashby is a Northampton man, making it very likely you have found the right man.

 

FindMyPast also has selected admissions and discharge books for various medical facilities in the UK and France& Flanders. If you can find your man it won’t give you an address \ home town, but it will quite often give age and sometimes information about how long they have been in the Army and how long they have served overseas.

 

As far as I can see he didn’t marry until after the war was over. Assuming he didn’t stay in the peace-time Army, then that rules out another potential source – marriage certificates and childrens’ birth certificates – as husbands \ fathers occupation would have given rank and regiment as a minimum, and sometimes much more.

 

I see from the Medal Index Card that there is no Silver War Badge shown as issued for him. Given that he spent 9 months in medical facilities there would be the possibility that he was medically discharged. However Ancestry has summary details of War Pension awards, so he may have had an entitlement.  I understand not all the cards have yet been released. However Ancestry have put the cards themselves on their American sister site, Fold 3, to which an additional subscription is required.

 

Finally the other route to confirmation is the absent voters lists of 1918 & 1919 – see

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

You may need to contact the County Archive as the one for Northampton doesn’t appear to be on line.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Edited 15 February , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[clk]

Hi Selina,

 

I think that you may well have got the right man.

 

1911 census living at 22 Mill Road, Dunston St James parish, Northampton (with parents George and Kate, and siblings). A War Office casualty list from 1918 shows...

 

Image sourced from the National Library of Scotland

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

[Selina]

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

Have you had a look at the Long Long Trail as recommended in the preamble to the subforum? 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/forum/1-soldiers-and-their-units/

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/

 

Michelle 

 

No, did not see it.  Thank you reviewing it now

[PRC]

5 hours ago, Selina said:

I am not very knowledgeable of these matters and wonder why would he not be in the Northamptonshire Regiment? 

 

5 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Any geographical niceties went out the window pretty early on and the army simply sent a man wherever there was a space for them so he may or may not have been in a local regiment.

 

2 hours ago, clk said:

A War Office casualty list from 1918 shows...

 

Image sourced from the National Library of Scotland

 

 

Note 39191 A Abraham has a Kettering next of kin. Probably joined the 9th Norfolks on the same day.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Edited 15 February , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Further to what PRC posted above, there is a surviving AVL for some Northampton divisions at the British Library and/or the Northampton County Archives, so depending on where he lived, you might be in luck.

The AVL lists all men and women who were away from their homes when the list was compiled (usually the first list was early to mid 1918), and almost always gives their home address, and in about 95% gives their unit and service number.

The AVL for the divisions known to exist are Kettering. Wellingborough, Daventry & Peterborough, whereas the Northampton division AVL seems to have been lost.

Of course, it depends what areas are within each division.

There is a list of men who served from the village of Burton Latimer, but he is not on that.

https://www.burtonlatimer.info/war/Absentvoters.html

As PRC suggests, a trip to the county archives may give you an answer.

[Selina]

47 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

 

 

Note 39191 A Abraham has a Kettering next of kin. Probably joined the 9th Norfolks on the same day.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

You confirmed it!  It's definitely my Pappy Ashby.  22 Mill Road St. James.  Mum and I are a bit emotional.  I cannot thank you enough.  I will come back to review the other posts.  Thank you to ALL for making this happen.  Made my mum his granddaughter so happy.

[PRC]

5 hours ago, Selina said:

My mum thinks he entered when he was sixteen years of age approx. 1916 right after his dad died George Ashby (served in the Boer War) 

 

George Ashby was shown on the 1911 Census of England & Wales as aged 42. I could not see a likely death for him in Northampton in the period 1914 - 18, but there is the death of a 48 year old George Ashby recorded in the Daventry District of Northamptonshire in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1916.

 

May not be "your" George and even if it was he may have been visiting \ working when he died. Unfortunately no probate as that might have cleared things up. Might be worth trying contemporary newspapers to see if there are any reports \ coroners inquiries \ BMD personal notices and the like.

 

Reason for mentioning it is that if the family had moved to Daventry, and Georges' widow remained living there, then it's the Daventry AVL that might the place to look.

 

20 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The AVL for the divisions known to exist are Kettering. Wellingborough, Daventry & Peterborough,

 

The money option is to buy the death certificate, but most likely you'll want to make sure you;ve got the right man.

 

Just seen your latest post - @clk gets the credit for that find, but glad we could help.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Selina]

3 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Selina,

 

I think that you may well have got the right man.

 

1911 census living at 22 Mill Road, Dunston St James parish, Northampton (with parents George and Kate, and siblings). A War Office casualty list from 1918 shows...

 

Image sourced from the National Library of Scotland

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

Chris,

 

Don't know if you saw my last post but this is definitely my Pappy Ashby. He lived at 22 Mill Rd, St. James.  Mum and I are so grateful to you and everyone here for confirming his identity.  I cant wait to review the other posts too.  

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

7 minutes ago, Selina said:

He lived at 22 Mill Rd, St. James

Is that in Northampton town itself?

[charlie962]

The Casualty List posted above is dated 5th Dec 1918 suggesting wounding in the last days of the war.

 

5 hours ago, PRC said:

I think it's mid to late-1917 issue.

On the basis that he was a youngster without previous service then, from looking at similar numbers with surviving service records, I suspect he was given that Norfolks number in June 1918 and posted to France to join (via an IBD) 9th Bn in about Oct 1918 and wounded a week or two later.  ie all in the last few weeks of the war. But the casualty rate in this period was high and the fighting hard.

 

Charlie

[clk]

Hi Selina,

 

If you can wait a couple of days, I might be able to date when he likely 'joined up' from his service number; and when he may have been wounded (within a couple of days) from service files of others (if any remain) who appear on the same casualty report, which you could then cross reference to his unit war diary to see if anything obvious jumps out.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

Probably the same as Charlie above/below really.

Edited 15 February , 2020 by clk

[charlie962]

further to my post above I can provide probable dates (compiled from service records of, inter alia, 39107 Potter and 39147 Purkiss who were youngsters)

 

"posted 3rd Norfolk 22/6/18, embarked Dover 11/10/18 disembarked Calais same day, posted L IBD 11/10/18, posted to 9th Bn 14/10/18, joined 9th Bn 20/10/18"

 

Charlie

 

Note ¨Purkiss went missing, presumed dead, on 23/10/18, only 3 days after arriving at the Bn.

 

Edited 15 February , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Ashby's name appears in a very long list of wounded in the 9th Bn War Diary for Oct 1918

 

21/10/18  13.00  Draft of 260 ORs arrived

23/10/18  01.20  Battalion attacked ....

[Selina]

5 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Selina,

 

I think that you may well have got the right man.

 

1911 census living at 22 Mill Road, Dunston St James parish, Northampton (with parents George and Kate, and siblings). A War Office casualty list from 1918 shows...

 

Image sourced from the National Library of Scotland

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

Chris, 

 

I don't know if you are seeing my responses.  My mum and I want to thank you ever so much.  My mum was emotional when she read your post confirming her that this is in fact her beloved Pap.  We are going to review all the posts and see where we can take this.  My mum does not believe he ever picked up any of his medals. Not sure if there is anything we can do about that as there are strict guidelines to follow. But she remembered where he said he lived at St. James because she remembers her great-grandmother.  Much thanks again

[Selina]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Is that in Northampton town itself?

Yes it is in Northampton town

[Selina]

51 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Ashby's name appears in a very long list of wounded in the 9th Bn War Diary for Oct 1918

 

21/10/18  13.00  Draft of 260 ORs arrived

23/10/18  01.20  Battalion attacked ....

We are so grateful for all this invaluable information regarding our beloved Pappy Ashby.  We never knew any of this information regarding the facts that you have provided.  I want to print and prepare a file with all this information similiar to a military memorial file for all of our relatives.  It appears Alfred George Ashby never picked up any of his medals.  I don't know what we can do now but I will try... we are most grateful to you and all the others here that made this happen.  On his behalf, we are blessed.

[Selina]

1 hour ago, clk said:

Hi Selina,

 

If you can wait a couple of days, I might be able to date when he likely 'joined up' from his service number; and when he may have been wounded (within a couple of days) from service files of others (if any remain) who appear on the same casualty report, which you could then cross reference to his unit war diary to see if anything obvious jumps out.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

Probably the same as Charlie above/below really.

If you would be so kind Chris.