WWI - Search for Great-Grandfather Alfred George Ashby

[Selina]

6 hours ago, PRC said:

 

The most likely scenario is that he was called up on reaching age 18, (July 1917) – conscription was introduced in the spring of 1916 so there was practically no more volunteering.

 

He would have trained in the UK , but held back from being deployed overseas at that point until he reached the age of 19  - so he would have been marked to go overseas in July 1918.

 

However, with the significant losses suffered by the British Army in March & April 1918 in the German Spring Offensive, this was brought down to 18 and a half. As he was already passed that age he would have been sent overseas immediately.

 

A look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website shows five other Norfolk Regiment men with 5-digit service numbers that start 391xx. The earliest died on the 7th August 1918. It’s only a very rough and ready guide, but given the rates of attrition amongst infantryman it can be a general indicator of roughly when they started to reach the battlefield.

 

Hopefully one of the pals here will be able to check out the official casualty lists – if he was a combat casualty, (as opposed to illness or accidental injury), then he will appear there with a brief note of the town\village of his next of kin.

 

If they don’t then you can either wade through on the National Libray of Scotland website, try a search on the likes of FindMyPast, (not sure than Ancestry has them), or try the British Newspaper Archive, or the newspaper sources of most genealogy sites if your subscription gives you access .

 

Incidentally, if you live in the UK, your local public library will almost certainly subscribe to the British Newspaper Archive, so worth checking it out there.

 

Hopefully one of those sources will help confirm that 39178 Alfred George Ashby is a Northampton man, making it very likely you have found the right man.

 

FindMyPast also has selected admissions and discharge books for various medical facilities in the UK and France& Flanders. If you can find your man it won’t give you an address \ home town, but it will quite often give age and sometimes information about how long they have been in the Army and how long they have served overseas.

 

As far as I can see he didn’t marry until after the war was over. Assuming he didn’t stay in the peace-time Army, then that rules out another potential source – marriage certificates and childrens’ birth certificates – as husbands \ fathers occupation would have given rank and regiment as a minimum, and sometimes much more.

 

I see from the Medal Index Card that there is no Silver War Badge shown as issued for him. Given that he spent 9 months in medical facilities there would be the possibility that he was medically discharged. However Ancestry has summary details of War Pension awards, so he may have had an entitlement.  I understand not all the cards have yet been released. However Ancestry have put the cards themselves on their American sister site, Fold 3, to which an additional subscription is required.

 

Finally the other route to confirmation is the absent voters lists of 1918 & 1919 – see

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

You may need to contact the County Archive as the one for Northampton doesn’t appear to be on line.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Peter, so grateful for all the information you have provided here.  I will continue searching for more information from what you have provided and will make this my quest on behalf of my mothers for Pappy Ashby's descendants.  I will pass it all down to future generations in our family.  We believe he never picked up his medals so I will give that a try to... although that door may be closed.  Don't know why there is no Silver War Badge as we can see from the Casualty List provided - Alfred George Ashby was no doubt wounded in WWI.  Much thanks again Peter.  Selina and Maureen 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Ashby's name appears in a very long list of wounded in the 9th Bn War Diary for Oct 1918

 

21/10/18  13.00  Draft of 260 ORs arrived

23/10/18  01.20  Battalion attacked ....

 

The version of the 9th Battalion War Diary I downloaded from the National Archive many moons ago stopped at the end of September 1918. Therefore all I have  for that period is:-

 

From “A Short History of the 6th Devision Aug. 1914 – March 1919".

 

On the night of the 20th/21st October the Division was again put in, relieving the 27th American Division and a part of the 25th Division on the front from Bazuel to a short way north of Mazinghien, with a view to the attack planned for the 23rd October. There now occurred a sudden change in the type of country. Instead of open rolling downs, there was a multiplicity of small fields, divided by high thick-set hedges trained on wire which proved formidable obstacles. The enemy had good positions for his artillery in the Bois l'Evêque, and on the east bank of the Canal de la Sambre, protected from the danger of being rushed by that obstacle, and it was evident that he intended to put up a determined fight on the strong position thus afforded. The hostile artillery fire was more than had been encountered since the fighting about St. Quentin, and throughout the few days preceding the attack the shelling of roads, farms and villages in our rear area and of artillery positions was continuous. On the night of the attack the assembly positions of the assaulting brigades were subjected to heavy counter-preparation, including a great deal of gas-shelling, and the assembly units suffered considerable casualties. The attack was delivered at 1.20 a.m. on 23rd October in a dense fog; the 1st Division being on the right and the 25th Division on the left. Three sections of 301st American Tank Company were allotted to the Division, and did excellent work in smashing fences and destroying machine-gun nests, though, owing to the fog, the infantry lost touch with them almost at once.

 

On the right the 18th Infantry Brigade, which attacked with the 2nd D.L.I. on the right and the 1st West Yorkshire Regiment on the left, had a less difficult task than the 71st Infantry Brigade, but were delayed in crossing the gas-shelled valley in their immediate front, and met with opposition from various farms. However, they fought their way steadily forward during the day, and by the late afternoon their right battalion had reached its objective and had pushed its patrols down to the canal, and the left battalion, having reached its first objective, was struggling forward to its second.

 

The 71st Infantry Brigade on the left attacked with the 9th Norfolk Regiment and the 1st Leicestershire Regiment. Its attack soon became disorganized in the very enclosed country, was unable to keep pace with its barrage, lost touch with its tanks in the fog, and was soon held up on a line not more than about 400 yards beyond that from which it had started. Fighting continued throughout the day, and finally, taking advantage of the progress made by the 25th Division on its left, the 71st Infantry Brigade was able by night to reach a line about half-way through the Bois l'Evêque.

 

And from “The History of the Norfolk Regiment 1685 – 1918: Volume 2.

 

Page 297 - 298. The brigade formed up in the early part of the night of the 22nd – 23rd, zero hour being at 1.20 a.m.

 

The line of assembly was on the light railway from Catillon to Le Cateau, whence the attack was directed north-eastwards towards the Bois de l’Eveque. The battalions were the 9th Norfolk on the right, 1st Leicester left, and Sherwood Foresters reserve. The two leading battalions were to carry the attack through to the objective, which was marked on the map by a red line 300 or 400 yards beyond the south-west edge of the Bois de l’Eveque.

 

There had been very heavy shelling on the starting line during the night, and a thick mist in the morning made the assembly very difficult; but the battalions were in position up to time and had a good start.

 

The first check occurred very soon, when many wired hedges and fences, in a close country of small fields, were met with and found to be almost impassable. By 5.30 a.m. the brigade head-quarters  received a report from the 9th Norfolks that the attack had been held up from the first by this cause, and by a very severe machine-gun fire. Half an hour later it was definitely held up, and the barrage had been lost as it moved ahead. The Norfolk battalion was unable to get more than 400 yards from the assembly line, and was stopped short of the Bois de l’Eveque, though some small scattered parties were further on.

 

The 1st Leicester battalion was on the same line, except their left company, which had been able to push forward. A section of tanks had got on to the red line, but finding the infantry was not following, and being under fire from a 77 mm. gun, had returned.

 

At 7 a.m. the Sherwood Foresters (reserve) were digging in on the starting line with three companies, the fourth in reserve.

 

The two tanks were now ordered to report to the O.C. 9th Norfolks and to clear up the machine-guns obstructing the advance.

 

At 11 a.m. the situation was reported to be that the remnants of the four companies of the Leicester battalion were holding the red line on the left. Thence the line ran back south-east through the Bois de l’Eveque. The Leicesters were in touch with the 20th Manchester of the brigade on their left, but there no contact between the right of the 71st brigade and the left of the 18th. To fill the gap the Sherwood Foresters were pushing up a company.

 

After 1 p.m., as there was a distinct slackening of the vigour of the enemy’s defence, it was decided to move the Sherwood Foresters north-eastwards, whilst the 9th Norfolks, who had now been reorganized, would work round the area of the 25th division on the left, and, forming up on the road from Bazuel to the north, would push through the Bois de l’Eveque south-eastwards. The attack in this direction was expected to be easier, as it was parallel to the paths and drives in the wood, while the original line of attack had been directed at right angles to them through thick undergrowth. Before this could be completed, however, darkness stopped the fight. The 71st brigade ended the day about halfway through the wood. The operation was considered a success, as it had broken the enemy’s resistance and facilitated the clearing of the Bois de l’Evique next day by the 16th brigade. The casualties of the Norfolk battalion on this day were:

Officers: Killed – 2nd Lieutenants C.D. Smith and R.B. Bray.

Wounded – Lieutenant H.G. Palmer; 2nd Lieutenants A. Miller, Coates, B. Campbell, Teal and J.H. Clarke.

Other ranks: seven killed, sixty-one wounded, sixty missing.

The battalion took thirty prisoners.

At 6 p.m. the Norfolk Battalion was withdrawn from the front.

 

I don't have any record of them being in action again after that.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 16 February , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[PRC]

35 minutes ago, Selina said:

We believe he never picked up his medals so I will give that a try to... although that door may be closed. 

 

There is nothing on the Service Medal Roll or the associated Medal Index Card to indicate they were ever returned. As a member of the other ranks he didn't have to apply for his medals, they were sent out automatically to the last known address. He would have had to sign for them and the receipt would have been in service record. Unfortunately looks like his record was one of the many that went up in flames during the blitz.

 

He was entitled to the Victory Medal and the British War Medal.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[clk]

Hi Selina,

 

I don't think that I can add much more now to the posts that Peter and Charlie have made.

 

Looking at surviving service papers for Norfolk Regiment men that bracket his 39178 number shows:

 

39159 Bird - 19.6.1918 joined 3rd (Reserve) Battalion. 11.10.1918 embarked at Dover; disembarked in Calais; and arrived at 'L' Infantry Base Depot (Calais). 14.10.1918 posted to join 9th Bn.   20.10.1918 joined Bn.

39178

39188 Clements - 19.6.1918 mobilised to 3rd Bn. 11.10.1918 posted to the 9th Bn whilst at an unspecified Infantry Base Depot (presumably 'L')

 

Slightly out of date/number order there are some papers for a 39107 Potter. He joined the 3rd Bn on 22.6.1918, and then followed the identical path to Bird.

 

If you would like a copy of the War Office Casualty List, you can get it from the National Library of Scotland - click here. There was often a delay of several weeks between when a nan was actually wounded compared to the publication date of the list he appeared on. One way to try to establish the actual date of wounding is to look for service papers for other men from the regiment who are on the same list to see if there is a commonality (within a day or so), and then make an inference. I didn't do that exercise, but 39159 Bird appears on the list, and his papers record that he was wounded on 21/23.10.1918.

 

Overall, it seems likely that Alfred 'joined up' in mid June 1918 and trained with the 3rd Bn. Probably then being sent overseas on 11th October 1918, and arriving in the front line as part of a replacement draft of 260 men who actually joined the 9th Bn on 21st October 1918, where he was wounded a very short time later.

 

On Ancestry the 9th Bn war diary for October 1918 starts here.

 

Regards

Chris

[Selina]

14 hours ago, PRC said:

 

The version of the 9th Battalion War Diary I downloaded from the National Archive many moons ago stopped at the end of September 1918. Therefore all I have  for that period is:-

 

From “A Short History of the 6th Devision Aug. 1914 – March 1919".

 

On the night of the 20th/21st October the Division was again put in, relieving the 27th American Division and a part of the 25th Division on the front from Bazuel to a short way north of Mazinghien, with a view to the attack planned for the 23rd October. There now occurred a sudden change in the type of country. Instead of open rolling downs, there was a multiplicity of small fields, divided by high thick-set hedges trained on wire which proved formidable obstacles. The enemy had good positions for his artillery in the Bois l'Evêque, and on the east bank of the Canal de la Sambre, protected from the danger of being rushed by that obstacle, and it was evident that he intended to put up a determined fight on the strong position thus afforded. The hostile artillery fire was more than had been encountered since the fighting about St. Quentin, and throughout the few days preceding the attack the shelling of roads, farms and villages in our rear area and of artillery positions was continuous. On the night of the attack the assembly positions of the assaulting brigades were subjected to heavy counter-preparation, including a great deal of gas-shelling, and the assembly units suffered considerable casualties. The attack was delivered at 1.20 a.m. on 23rd October in a dense fog; the 1st Division being on the right and the 25th Division on the left. Three sections of 301st American Tank Company were allotted to the Division, and did excellent work in smashing fences and destroying machine-gun nests, though, owing to the fog, the infantry lost touch with them almost at once.

 

On the right the 18th Infantry Brigade, which attacked with the 2nd D.L.I. on the right and the 1st West Yorkshire Regiment on the left, had a less difficult task than the 71st Infantry Brigade, but were delayed in crossing the gas-shelled valley in their immediate front, and met with opposition from various farms. However, they fought their way steadily forward during the day, and by the late afternoon their right battalion had reached its objective and had pushed its patrols down to the canal, and the left battalion, having reached its first objective, was struggling forward to its second.

 

The 71st Infantry Brigade on the left attacked with the 9th Norfolk Regiment and the 1st Leicestershire Regiment. Its attack soon became disorganized in the very enclosed country, was unable to keep pace with its barrage, lost touch with its tanks in the fog, and was soon held up on a line not more than about 400 yards beyond that from which it had started. Fighting continued throughout the day, and finally, taking advantage of the progress made by the 25th Division on its left, the 71st Infantry Brigade was able by night to reach a line about half-way through the Bois l'Evêque.

 

And from “The History of the Norfolk Regiment 1685 – 1918: Volume 2.

 

Page 297 - 298. The brigade formed up in the early part of the night of the 22nd – 23rd, zero hour being at 1.20 a.m.

 

The line of assembly was on the light railway from Catillon to Le Cateau, whence the attack was directed north-eastwards towards the Bois de l’Eveque. The battalions were the 9th Norfolk on the right, 1st Leicester left, and Sherwood Foresters reserve. The two leading battalions were to carry the attack through to the objective, which was marked on the map by a red line 300 or 400 yards beyond the south-west edge of the Bois de l’Eveque.

 

There had been very heavy shelling on the starting line during the night, and a thick mist in the morning made the assembly very difficult; but the battalions were in position up to time and had a good start.

 

The first check occurred very soon, when many wired hedges and fences, in a close country of small fields, were met with and found to be almost impassable. By 5.30 a.m. the brigade head-quarters  received a report from the 9th Norfolks that the attack had been held up from the first by this cause, and by a very severe machine-gun fire. Half an hour later it was definitely held up, and the barrage had been lost as it moved ahead. The Norfolk battalion was unable to get more than 400 yards from the assembly line, and was stopped short of the Bois de l’Eveque, though some small scattered parties were further on.

 

The 1st Leicester battalion was on the same line, except their left company, which had been able to push forward. A section of tanks had got on to the red line, but finding the infantry was not following, and being under fire from a 77 mm. gun, had returned.

 

At 7 a.m. the Sherwood Foresters (reserve) were digging in on the starting line with three companies, the fourth in reserve.

 

The two tanks were now ordered to report to the O.C. 9th Norfolks and to clear up the machine-guns obstructing the advance.

 

At 11 a.m. the situation was reported to be that the remnants of the four companies of the Leicester battalion were holding the red line on the left. Thence the line ran back south-east through the Bois de l’Eveque. The Leicesters were in touch with the 20th Manchester of the brigade on their left, but there no contact between the right of the 71st brigade and the left of the 18th. To fill the gap the Sherwood Foresters were pushing up a company.

 

After 1 p.m., as there was a distinct slackening of the vigour of the enemy’s defence, it was decided to move the Sherwood Foresters north-eastwards, whilst the 9th Norfolks, who had now been reorganized, would work round the area of the 25th division on the left, and, forming up on the road from Bazuel to the north, would push through the Bois de l’Eveque south-eastwards. The attack in this direction was expected to be easier, as it was parallel to the paths and drives in the wood, while the original line of attack had been directed at right angles to them through thick undergrowth. Before this could be completed, however, darkness stopped the fight. The 71st brigade ended the day about halfway through the wood. The operation was considered a success, as it had broken the enemy’s resistance and facilitated the clearing of the Bois de l’Evique next day by the 16th brigade. The casualties of the Norfolk battalion on this day were:

Officers: Killed – 2nd Lieutenants C.D. Smith and R.B. Bray.

Wounded – Lieutenant H.G. Palmer; 2nd Lieutenants A. Miller, Coates, B. Campbell, Teal and J.H. Clarke.

Other ranks: seven killed, sixty-one wounded, sixty missing.

The battalion took thirty prisoners.

At 6 p.m. the Norfolk Battalion was withdrawn from the front.

 

I don't have any record of them being in action again after that.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Peter,

 

I read this in its entirety and am overwhelmed by the valor, and sacrifice of all the brave men.  We cannot thank you enough for what you have done. As we live in America, I have only access to the internet to research. I have dual citizenship and our family still lives in Northampton. We are very close although miles apart.  I will be printing all of the posts and will be sharing with Alfred George Ashby's family and descendants both here in America and over the pond in his homeland.  Bless you for doing all this work. 

[Selina]

41 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Selina,

 

I don't think that I can add much more now to the posts that Peter and Charlie have made.

 

Looking at surviving service papers for Norfolk Regiment men that bracket his 39178 number shows:

 

39159 Bird - 19.6.1918 joined 3rd (Reserve) Battalion. 11.10.1918 embarked at Dover; disembarked in Calais; and arrived at 'L' Infantry Base Depot (Calais). 14.10.1918 posted to join 9th Bn.   20.10.1918 joined Bn.

39178

39188 Clements - 19.6.1918 mobilised to 3rd Bn. 11.10.1918 posted to the 9th Bn whilst at an unspecified Infantry Base Depot (presumably 'L')

 

Slightly out of date/number order there are some papers for a 39107 Potter. He joined the 3rd Bn on 22.6.1918, and then followed the identical path to Bird.

 

If you would like a copy of the War Office Casualty List, you can get it from the National Library of Scotland - click here. There was often a delay of several weeks between when a nan was actually wounded compared to the publication date of the list he appeared on. One way to try to establish the actual date of wounding is to look for service papers for other men from the regiment who are on the same list to see if there is a commonality (within a day or so), and then make an inference. I didn't do that exercise, but 39159 Bird appears on the list, and his papers record that he was wounded on 21/23.10.1918.

 

Overall, it seems likely that Alfred 'joined up' in mid June 1918 and trained with the 3rd Bn. Probably then being sent overseas on 11th October 1918, and arriving in the front line as part of a replacement draft of 260 men who actually joined the 9th Bn on 21st October 1918, where he was wounded a very short time later.

 

On Ancestry the 9th Bn war diary for October 1918 starts here.

 

Regards

Chris

Bless you Chris for providing this information and this will put me on path to take it the rest of the way.  Yes, I will be requesting a copy of the War Office Casualty List.  Much gratitude from my Mum and I.

[PRC]

4 minutes ago, Selina said:

As we live in America, I have only access to the internet to research. I have dual citizenship and our family still lives in Northampton. We are very close although miles apart. 

 

Then you be pleased to note that the attack in which your great-grandfather was most likely injured was a joint UK\US effort.

 

The US 301st Heavy Tank Company gets several mentions on this Wikipedia page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Corps_of_the_American_Expeditionary_Forces

One of the pictures used to illistrate it was of 301st tanks going into action on the 17th October 1918. As it was originally taken by a member of the USA Signal Corps there may well be more pictures relating to that unit and its actions on the 22nd-23rd in the Library of Congress online collections.

 

There is also more information on the actions of the 301st on the 23rd here. https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/1918/100days/selle---17-to-25-october-1918/301-us-tank-battalion-23-october-1918

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

[Selina]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

Then you be pleased to note that the attack in which your great-grandfather was most likely injured was a joint UK\US effort.

 

The US 301st Heavy Tank Company gets several mentions on this Wikipedia page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Corps_of_the_American_Expeditionary_Forces

One of the pictures used to illistrate it was of 301st tanks going into action on the 17th October 1918. As it was originally taken by a member of the USA Signal Corps there may well be more pictures relating to that unit and its actions on the 22nd-23rd in the Library of Congress online collections.

 

There is also more information on the actions of the 301st on the 23rd here. https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/1918/100days/selle---17-to-25-october-1918/301-us-tank-battalion-23-october-1918

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Mum and I are reading the articles and its so emotional.  What spurred me on to find out about Pappy Ashby was that Mum and I just went last week to see the movie 1917.  Mum is a proud Brit and loved her grandfather very much.  She had childhood stories that helped too.  We would have never been able to finally get a clearer picture of what happened to Alfred George Ashby if not for you and the others here who helped solve the mystery.  With so much gratitude and yes I am so pleased to see it was a united effort by both the UK/US.

[Selina]

On 15/02/2020 at 10:47, ss002d6252 said:

Any geographical niceties went out the window pretty early on and the army simply sent a man wherever there was a space for them so he may or may not have been in a local regiment.

 

Do you know roughly when this was ?

 

Do you when he was born or who his parents/siblings were ?

 

Craig

By the way, thank you Craig for the information below.