Photo Clue - 18 "abandoned" lost graves at Schneideműhl

[TullochArd]

My apologies for the "re-post" - repeated here in the correct "topic" area.  There has been a fair bit of discussion on GWF around the 18 "abandoned" lost graves of soldiers known to have been buried at Pila (formerly Schneideműhl) Prisoner of War Cemetery whose graves could not be identified by IWGC for later concentration in the 1920's  Here is a fascinating photograph of British prisoners from Schneidemühl burying a comrade under the supervision of a German (standing right). Of the six crosses at the front four can be clearly identified as CWGC “abandoned” lost graves. From left to right they are the graves of H. Browne, J. Cuthill, H. Devine and W. Stimpson. Perhaps the location of the building behind the German one day might provide an answer to the mystery?

Edited 2 February , 2020 by TullochArd

[TEW]

Well, I think I found the location of Schneideműhl Cemetery, and the 1/7/16 memorial to the south-east of Pila. The other post #25 says it's south-west of Pila.

The building in the background is something substantial but not a hint of any buildings near the Cemetery site now. Of course, the landscape may have changed significantly during WW2.

 

I found a hi quality 1935 map of the area (14Mb) which shows the memorial and a cemetery being in woodland and there are some buildings 400-500 metres to the north-west. One is marked 'Zu', which means nothing to me. The cemetery is marked as 'Russen Friedhof', there is also a 'Suchen Friedhof' not far away.

 

Can't see any buildings now via google satellite, but perhaps traces of the camp?

 

Might the British Cemetery be somewhere else?

TEW

 

 

 

 

[charlie2]

There was another PoW Cemetery, pretty much in the town itself. Squares B 5 & 6 on this map

http://www.schneidemuehl.net/assets/stadtplan-farbe-gross.jpg
 

Charlie

Edited 5 February , 2020 by charlie2

[charlie2]

There were three PoW Cemeteries, The Russian cemetery, the Suechen (Cholera) cemetery and the one indicated on the map in my last post. Cholera cemetery contains 148 graves of Russian PoWs who died of Cholera in 1914. All told there were three mass graves and 3176 individual graves for PoWs. I think the photo shows a chapel or similar in the cemetery In squares B 5 & 6.

Three interesting sites

http://schneidemühl.net/assets/friedhofe.pdf

http://fotokelich.blogspot.com/2014/03/cmentarz-ofiar-cholery-w-pile.html

http://westernpomerania.com.pl/gm-Pila-1311+/Pila-cmentarze-1336+1256

 

Charlie

 

[JWK]

Polish Wikipedia says "[The camp] was located in the eastern suburbs of the city, on the former infantry training ground. This area, currently located at the end of Bydgoska Street, was until recently used as a training ground by the Higher Officers' School of Automotive."

(Could that be at  53.153468, 16.796138 ?

 

And about the cemetery:

"It was located a few kilometers south of the camp, in the area of the settlement of Plöttke (now Leszków), next to a small Protestant cemetery. The whole area has been tidied up, fenced and properly harmonized with the forest surroundings. Until the liquidation of the camp in November 1918, over 2,600 people were buried there [3]. Representatives of many nations (including English, French, Belgians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Jews, Tatars) and religious denominations (Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Orthodox, Greek Catholics, Protestants) rested at the cemetery. Most of them were soldiers of the Russian army, hence before World War II the cemetery was known as Russen Friedhof."

 

@charlie2  I've seached high and low, and in all possible languages, but that PDF of scheidemuhl.net (an organisation of German people who once lived in Schneidemühl) I completely missed!

Interesting story in there:

“Inbetween the Russian graves a slender Orthodox chapel rises up, in the middle of the cemetery.

Built to commemorate the Greek-Orthodox Russian soldiers.

It is surrounded by columns crowned with spheres., which are connected by iron chains. A square building, onion-topped domes, looming orthodox crosses: it shows us the Russian style of church building.”

“Unfortunately it now lies in ruins”

“Building was made possible by voluntary donations by Russians of all ranks, and started on 21 May 1915. The chapel was consecrated on 29 december 1915.”

 

So could it be the "lost soldiers" were buried to the south-west of the chapel (considering the way the light falls)?

 

Also: is that coloured map of Schneidemühl from WW2 (or later? It shows bicycle-lanes!) There was a POW camp there in WW2 I believe (perhaps forced labour at the Albatros Aircraft factory?)

 

[charlie2]

@JWK unfortunately no date for the map was given, but it is from the period 1933-45, in the middle of square F6 are the offices of the NSDAP Kreisleitung.

Charlie

[JWK]

17 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

@JWK unfortunately no date for the map was given, but it is from the period 1933-45, in the middle of square F6 are the offices of the NSDAP Kreisleitung.

Charlie

 

Aha! That indeed puts it between '33 and '45.

The map of 1935 doesn't show a POW cemetery there so I *think* it's 1939-1945.

And here was me thinking he Dutch were the inventors of "bike-lanes", but nope: before 1945 they already a tiny (now) Polish town already had them!

[TullochArd]

JWK, charlie2 and TEW - many thanks for your informative research and kind interest. 

 

JWK got me all excited with the description of the Orthodox Chapel as being a contender for the building in the photo.  However the description “Building was made possible by voluntary donations by Russians of all ranks, and started on 21 May 1915. The chapel was consecrated on 29 December 1915.” might rule this one out as the cluster of new burials shown in the photo (and all the other "abandoned" graves indeed) all date from January - March 1915 and this building looks complete?

 

The Schneideműhl Monument that TEW also seems to be a confusing record. I have a photo showing "23 British Soldiers who died in captivity" although there are 33 names today.  We do know that 235164 Pte William Oscar Davies, Yorkshire Regiment added names and additional detail in 1916/17 which likely explains some of this?  

[TullochArd]

JWK ………… I also recall seeing the scheidemuhl.net but have also had no success in finding it.  Additionally, First World War Soldier.com has a Schneidemühl page which gives us a researchers name but unfortunately it just leads to another dead link. 

 

It reads: 

 

"Burials at Schneidemühl/Piła

One of the fascinating developments since the launch of the site has been the interest it has created in Piła (formerly Schneidemühl). New material has emerged, 100 years after the events, and much research is going on regarding the Prisoner of War Camp and the burials of prisoners who died there.

Of particular note is the research being carried out by Marek Przybylowicz, His story focuses on the Memorial to the British Prisoners of War and you can find out more at http://en.tracesofwar.com/article.asp?id=45675 

Marek hopes to persuade the Commonwealth War Graves Commission to permit the return from Poznan of the 18 headstones soldiers who died at Schneidemühl"

 

Looks like Marek Przybylowicz is ahead of the game and may be the man to unravel this one?

 

The first photo below shows original monument set amongst graves and the second the 1916/17 embellishments by William Davies.

[JWK]

6 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Looks like Marek Przybylowicz is ahead of the game and may be the man to unravel this one?

 

here's his article:  

https://decmarko.com/english-content/empty-graves/

 

 

*edit*

 

and the article in "The Sun" of 10 nov 2015:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/725274/i-want-to-give-some-dignity-to-the-scots-who-died-in-pow-camp/

 

 

 

Location of the graves of "the abandoned 18"

 

Edited 11 February , 2020 by JWK

[TEW]

The decmarko article is quite something. The story is more than an 'In From The Cold' one. I'll have to read through it all again to absorb it all but all praise to Marek.

TEW

[charlie2]

I‘m going to throw the cat among the pigeons and suggest that the photo in the original post is not the PoW cemetery at Schneidemühl at all, but has been made to represent it.

 

The building in the rear of the photo is not one that has been built in 6 months by unskilled labour. The building is built from coursed stone, is at least 20ft high, has mullioned windows, ornamental pillars and Stucco above the windows, did the PoWs even have access to such material? I very much doubt it. In my opinion it is a permanent building.

 

The distance between the new grave and that of „Devine“ is much too close. On the plan and on the photos on the Decmarko site there is a wider path between rows 12 and 13. In the photo there is no room for someone to stand between the foot of the grave and the Devine cross. Also look at the coffin being lowered, it is ornate, again did the PoWs have the facilities never mind skills to make such a coffin? 

The inscriptions on the crosses purporting to be those of Browne, Cuthill etc do not contain a date of death, as the neighbouring crosses do, only at best a month. This also applies to the photo with the Bugler on the Decmarko site. Their comrades would know exactly when they had died. I suggest the crosses have been „photoshopped“ and the inscriptions, which are much too bold, inked in - which not unknown.

Your thoughts please

Charlie

 

[laughton]

Absolutely fascinating story! I had never heard of the case and it looks as if you start digging into it, the story keeps growing. This group of eighteen (18) may be only one of the groups lost and now with Kipling Memorials (Sp. Mem. E) in Poznan Old Garrison Cemetery.

 

There was this comment in the article:

Quote

Peter added: “There are discussions underway about restoring the POW cemetery and we are part of those discussions with the Pila council and we hope we will be able to do something to reinstate the graves at their original burial site.” Marek, who was high school teacher before moving to Scotland in 2006, thinks that modern DNA technology might make it be possible to identity the bodies in the Pila collective grave now.

 

If the bodies were to be exhumed from the original POW cemetery, then there would be a case to do DNA testing, however if the plan of the CWGC is to restore the POW cemetery, then I think they mean taking the headstones back to Schneidemuhl from Poznan. If that was the case, then there would be no exhumation and therefore no DNA testing. All they would do is put the headstones back in the original locations (if those are known) or put them in alphabetical order (Sp. Mem. C - "Buried near this spot").

 

I did check a few to see if they had ICRC records and it appears that at least some of them exist. I will try and collect them all from the list of eighteen (18). I see the last one is a UBS? If we can find the complete ICRC list at Schneidemuhl then we might be able to get the name of the UBS.

 

https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc4427956.JPG

https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc4427957.JPG

 

This is typical of what the ICRC has on file - Arthur Crabtree #7108 is #3 on the list:

 

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2933605/3/2/

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2933605/698/2015/

 

 

[TEW]

I've been reading through all the articles and paperwork from the demarko site and trying to make sense of the connections to Poznan Cemetery, Berlin SW Cemetery and Cologne where they were either concentrated or have special memorials.

 

Quite a complex situation! Supposedly, Mr James had 4 graves exhumed in 1924 and found 8 coffins.

 

Quote

sixty seven identified corpses had been sent to Berlin, leaving eighteen, which showed traces of other nationalities (icons) placed in some coffins.

 

So, are the 18 necessarily British/Commonwealth?

 

Of the 18 missing, Private 235164 Davies inscribed those names plus 1 more in 1916? The Cutrell/Cutrill & Banks were added in 1916 & 1917. Full list of names.

 

More to read through!

TEW

[TullochArd]

Yes TEW ….. certainly more to read through. The James Special Report is a cracker of an addition.

 

charlie2's suspicions on the provenance of the original post photo is interesting …...there certainly is evidence that the Germans did produce staged PW photos …... with the presumed complicity those imprisoned.  All I'd offer here is that the earlier photo of pre-embellishment Memorial seems to show two rows of the peculiarly raised graves similar to those shown in the original post and please look at this metal post in the bottom left hand corner of the 1915 burial photo....just next to Browne's cross and compare it with the same/similar in the 1959 photo (attached below).

 

Regarding Laughton's observation on the 18th soldier being UBS - is this not Oliver Clough who died much later 8th January 1918?.  He is commemorated in Berlin South-West with the other 17 commemorated in Poznan Old Garrison.  For further research it may be of interest that the 'British Times', the PW newspaper for Schneidemuhl, apparently had a section recording the names of those held at Schneidemühl, ArbeitKommandos (AK) and various out Lagers.  It noted that "Pte Oliver Clough 6783 2nd Bttn KOYLI - d Schneidemuhl 8/01/1918 - memorial. Mrs Clough (widow of above) of 16 Lee Square, Leeds Road, Bradford"

 

Edited 12 February , 2020 by TullochArd

[TEW]

From the 1924 Charles James report I think 6873 Oliver Clough should make it 19 left in Schneideműhl, grave not found in 1924. He has a Kipling Memorial in Berlin SW Cemetery. His original grave (2234) may or may not have been in rows 11-18.

 

McLachlan's name may be a red-herring? Although his GRRF form crosses out his name and shows UBS.

 

The 18 others from rows 12 & 14 were then re-buried in plots marked by Crosses 1, 2 & 3. NB Clough was never located.

 

The 18 recorded burials turned out to be mass graves that contained in total 36 coffins, I think Mr James did pretty well!

 

Still perplexed by the odd coincidence that 235164 Davies inscribed 17 of the missing names (McLachlan not inscribed) plus three other names that died around the same time but were concentrated to Berlin. In other words, Davies created the first list of those not found in 1924.

TEW

[TullochArd]

"Of the 18 missing, Private 235164 Davies inscribed those names plus 1 more in 1916?" and "Still perplexed by the odd coincidence that 235164 Davies inscribed 17 of the missing names (McLachlan not inscribed) plus three other names that died around the same time but were concentrated to Berlin. In other words, Davies created the first list of those not found in 1924"

 

Yes - trying to get my head around this too...…….a report by US representatives, No 19 (1915), contains a full description of the camp. Of direct relevance here is by 14th October 1915 there were 312 British PWs recorded in the camp and 174 more working outside. 200 had been in the camp since Oct 1914 and most of the rest came from Zossen and Altdamn. 21 British PWs had died at this point mainly from cholera and typhus. The original memorial carried no names when erected in 1916 but some time after his arrival from April 1917 William Davies engraved 23 names on the front panel and possibly the additional detail. Most likely from records as the 21 from Schneideműhl all date from 1915 and the other two (Pte Cantrell who died in Hohensalza in 1916 and Pte Banks who died in Cologne in 1917) all well before his arrival. Those he engraved on the side panels died in 1918 when he was into his second year of captivity.

 

From William Davies Service Record (extract from Page 1 of a letter dated 20 Jan 1919) we get "I may mention here that I myself cut the names of Forty British Soldiers who died in captivity at Schneidemühl, Germany on the Swedish Granite Monument erected by their comrades in the Lager Cemetery"

 

Edited 12 February , 2020 by TullochArd

[charlie2]

18 hours ago, TullochArd said:

charlie2's suspicions on the provenance of the original post photo is interesting …...there certainly is evidence that the Germans did produce staged PW photos …... with the presumed complicity those imprisoned.  All I'd offer here is that the earlier photo of pre-embellishment Memorial seems to show two rows of the peculiarly raised graves similar to those shown in the original post and please look at this metal post in the bottom left hand corner of the 1

 
Thanks, I was aware of the post but the layout of the graves doesn‘t fit the plan.

Charlie

[TullochArd]

Looks like we've run this one to ground.  Appreciated all round.

 

The original photo (Post #1) appears far later than I certainly thought and shows the British Memorial chain fence (left) and Russian Orthodox Chapel (right). This ties in with 1924 Greig map which also records the Stimpson, Devine, Cuthill and Browne markers in Row 12/Cross 3. What the 1924 Greig plan suggests is that there was some relation to these neatly positioned wartime markers (Post #1) and the Jan-Mar 1915 burials which clearly there never was.  The Jan-Mar 1915 burials remain "Buried with other Nationalities" somewhere in the area.

 

At the height of the Cold War, some sixty years ago, a very practical decision was made to "abandon" the cemetery and relocate the 18 headstones.  I'm glad to say that the world has changed in this region and, practical £££ issues aside, I find myself in decmarko's camp with the gut feeling that the 18 should be commemorated where they lie and not in Berlin.

 

Edited 15 February , 2020 by TullochArd

[laughton]

This picture in the Australian archives is marked circa 1916 but it already has the memorial in place. How can that be?

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/A02180/   Prisoners at a burial service at the Schneidemühl Prisoner of War (POW) Camp in Posen in Germany. A sentry with a fixed bayonet stands guard, and behind the Chaplain is a monument which reads 'Erected in Memory of British Soldiers Who Died in Captivity They Did Their Duty. RIP'. This monument still stands in what is now known as the Pila Cemetery in Poland.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1207030   Outdoor portrait of a group of 11 unidentified allied Prisoners of War (POW) at Schneidemuhl POW camp, Germany. One of a series of over 80 photographs of Allied POWs in the camp at Schneidemuhl, given to 3235 Corporal (Cpl) James Skelly, 55th Battalion, from Rockdale, NSW, by fellow POWs as a souvenir of their time together. Cpl Skelly was a self-described "special correspondent" for the Australian Red Cross while at Schneidemuhl and originally donated these photographs to the Ramsgate R.S.L. The original is stored in the AWM archive store.

 

[TEW]

Not sure of the exact date for the original memorial but Davies (another POW) added the names of those still intered there, plus 3 more that were recovered. Those names are well balanced on the inscription so I feel the names were inscribed after April 17 ie the date of the last death for that panel.

Two more names were added at the base of the same panel to men who died elsewhere.

Then, other names were added to side panels for men who died into 1918. I think all these were recovered.

Then there is an UBS involved who had been identified originally as MacLachlan but then re-defined as UBS.

Still perplexed by the Russian Chapel as I thought it had not been built when the funeral photo had been taken and does not appear on the 1924 plan. A Russian memorial seems to in roughly the right position. Although apparently the chapel lay in ruins according to the German article which didn't give a date!

TEW

[TullochArd]

Splendid addition Laughton...…."circa 1916" seems to be the accepted date for the monument being in position without the later Davies embellishments. At this stage it has the appearance of a private purchase and would have simply commemorated the 21/23 British PWs who had died by around late 1915/early 1916. William Oscar Davies added the additional detail some time after his arrival in April 1917/before repatriation December 1918. He must have been working from earlier notes regarding the names. Incidentally, the Davies family were an old Caerphilly family of sculptors and monumental architects and by the 1920's were one of the oldest established monumental masons in S Wales/W England.

 

You are spot on TEW.  The 1924 Greig plan does indeed record a "Russian Memorial" which appears to be in the right spot for the building.  Perhaps we are in the world of nailing down variable terminology here?  Russian Orthodox Chapel/Russian Memorial and, for (rather extreme) comparison say, Edinburgh Castle/Scottish National War Memorial?

 

I wonder if the 3 crosses mentioned on the 1924 Greig plan ever materialised or did they simply just go for the 18 IWGC stones shown on the 1959 photo?

[TEW]

As to the Russian chapel/memorial. You can view the memorial online, a large slab of granite roughly? in the same spot as shown in 1924. But when did the memorial arrive? Did it replace the chapel?

The 1924 plan is scaled so the memorial has specific dimensions, do they tally with those for the chapel?

 

I'm sure the 1924 report says the graves near the British memorial ie those exhumed were in fact open trenches with coffins side by side. The Original photo shows separate graves with gaps. Perhaps the gaps were dug out for other burials? Or, they were moved?

TEW

 

[JWK]

A Polish documentary of a Mrs Duncan from Edinburgh visiting the cemetery, on behalf of Marek:

 

[JWK]

Marek was/is a member :  

 

 

And the elusive structure in some more detail:

From http://www.forum.dawna.pila.pl/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1408&start=25