Austrian casings?

[trajan]

10 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

 

Well that is certainly an easy "first strike" given that the Winchester 1866 model the Turks had was, to my knowledge, chambered in .44 Henry RIMFIRE and not centrefire as in this specimen case #80631, meaning it requires a case with NO visible primer.! You only get two more "guesses" ... 

 

PS. This is one source that I have used before regarding the Ottoman's dealing with the German arms manufacturers

Rulers, Guns, and Money: The Global Arms Trade in the Age of Imperialism. by Jonathan A. Grant. 2007, from p.221

 

 So, two more guesses? Well, ammunition is NOT my forte! 

 

More up to date for Germany's input is N.Yorulmaz, Arming the Sultan: German Arms Trade and Personal Diplomacy in the Ottoman Empire Before World War I (2014) - I don't have a personal copy.

[assafx]

1 hour ago, trajan said:

 

 So, two more guesses? Well, ammunition is NOT my forte! 

 

More up to date for Germany's input is N.Yorulmaz, Arming the Sultan: German Arms Trade and Personal Diplomacy in the Ottoman Empire Before World War I (2014) - I don't have a personal copy.

 

3 hours ago, trajan said:

 

Well, SS, you all know me well enough to know I don't trust unsourced information! I wonder where that information came from? Anyway, yes, the workers at the Zeytinburnu factory were complaining on 29th January 1910 that they had insufficient cartridge cases and 'would have to order these from Germany' - See Zengin 2016, 83. So case supply from Germany is no problem - but why the use of the 'Arabic' date 1912 on Assaf's case? 

 

And what 'newly refurbished weapons' do you have in mind SS? I can't think of any off-hand except the Peabpdy-Martini - and this is not for that!

 

My own preference here, given the 'Arabic' date used, is that this is US supplied for the few 1866 Winchester's still hanging around - but I freely confess I know nothing about these or the supply of ammunition from the US to the Ottoman Empire, never mind the crucial matter of calibre, where I happily bow to you expertise SS!

 

Most of the things that Yorulmaz is discussing in arming the sultan are already presented in Jonathan Grant publications and Yehuda wallach " Anatomie einer Militärhilfe: die preussisch-deutschen Militärmissionen in der Türkei 1835-1919 ". IMO this is part of the reason that in his introduction he bearly refers to their work because in many cases its parallel or based on. his advantages the original Turkish documents but most of them already strengthening the claims of Wallach, which are based on the German reports and correspondence.

 

One more point, my date in this rifle case is not Arabic. we assume that this is Austrian case.

 

Assaf

[trajan]

1 hour ago, assafx said:

One more point, my date in this rifle case is not Arabic. we assume that this is Austrian case.

 

Hi Assaf,

 

I was using 'Arabic' in inverted commas to make it clear I was referring to what Europeans call 'Arabic' numbers! I.e., '1912' not Osmanlaci ١٩١٢.

 

I don't know " Anatomie einer Militärhilfe: die preussisch-deutschen Militärmissionen in der Türkei 1835-1919 " - do you recommend it? An article or a book?

[assafx]

11 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

Hi Assaf,

 

I was using 'Arabic' in inverted commas to make it clear I was referring to what Europeans call 'Arabic' numbers! I.e., '1912' not Osmanlaci ١٩١٢.

 

I don't know " Anatomie einer Militärhilfe: die preussisch-deutschen Militärmissionen in der Türkei 1835-1919 " - do you recommend it? An article or a book?

got the numbers comment. in this case this is a fine example of a language barrier. once you say Arabic numbers i read it in English, there is an immediate translation to Hebrew in my head and  in Hebrew the meaning is literally Arabic numbers such as ١٩١٢ .

 

it is  a book that i highly recommend. its a review of the relationship between these two allies and filled with 'gossip'.  sadly it is out of print and was printed in German and Hebrew. i own a second hand Hebrew copy.

Edited 2 February , 2020 by assafx

[assafx]

it took me some time but on the way back home from the doctor i had to go through work and explain that i have at least 8 more weeks at home.

The good part is that i was able to measure the cases.

 

First an important correction.

what we assumed as a rifle cartridge #80631 is one of 4 casings found together and it appears to be a 0.303 inch case.

 

now in all i have 5 Austrian casings and maybe a poorly preserved one which might be the sixth, three of them seems to be at full length.

 

80631/1 (intact) - case length 35.8mm, case diamaeter 12.5mm rim diameter 14.2mm.

80631/2 (broken top) - case diameter 12.5mm, rim diameter 14.1mm.

80631/3 (intact and slightly bent) - case length 36.5mm, case diameter 11.5mm, rim diameter 13.3.

 

80413 (broken) - case diameter 12.6mm, rim diameter 14.1mm.

 

80758 (intact) - case length 36.2mm, case diameter 12.3mm, rim diameter 14.5mm.

 

I hope this is helpful in the final identification process.

 

Assaf

[shippingsteel]

On 29/01/2020 at 21:31, shippingsteel said:

A little further research points towards the 11.3×36mmR Gasser Revolver as being the likely source weapon that your cases belong to. Hopefully your measurement of the physical dimensions will help confirm this identification.

Cheers, SS

 

Assaf, thank you for providing the dimensions for these cartridges. I am going to stick with my original identification of these shorter case-length revolver cartridges as being for the 11.3mm Gasser Revolver (also known as 11mm Montenegrin Revolver). The dimensions you listed fall roughly within the parameters for this cartridge allowing for some variation in manufacturer, corrosion, damage and decay. I have also found a match for your headstamp in your original post (see bottom row centre of photo attached below) which is on a known example of the above stated cartridge.

Cheers, SS

 

[assafx]

6 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

 

 I am going to stick with my original identification of these shorter case-length revolver cartridges as being for the 11.3mm Gasser Revolver (also known as 11mm Montenegrin Revolver). The dimensions you listed fall roughly within the parameters for this cartridge allowing for some variation in manufacturer, corrosion, damage and decay.

 

 

Agreed, so what we are left now with are the manufacturer ID.

 

Assaf

 

[shippingsteel]

Well according to the IAA forum page I linked to earlier in the thread, the 1891 headstamp indicates manufacture by Sellier & Bellot.

Would you be able to cross reference the headstamp type/date to your list of reference numbers (with the dimensions provided above).? It might help in trying to allocate the manufacturer to the example. Any more photos of the other 1912 headstamps may also be helpful.?

 

Cheers, SS

Edited 10 March , 2020 by shippingsteel

[assafx]

5 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Well according to the IAA forum page I linked to earlier in the thread, the 1891 headstamp indicates manufacture by Sellier & Bellot.

Would you be able to cross reference the headstamp type/date to your list of reference numbers (with the dimensions provided above).? It might help in trying to allocate the manufacturer to the example. Any more photos of the other 1912 headstamps may also be helpful.?

 

Cheers, SS

The exec cross reference of images to basket numbers and photographs will have to wait for at least 8 weeks.

I'm sorry but the photographs that i have are not good enough for it.

There is a  registration problem with the basket numbers for the photographs, no one used "/" to separate the different casings and since 3 out of 4, in 80631 are with the same headstamp, it is not possible to separate them.

 

Here are two more of the 1912 type. as you can see, they are poorly preserved and to make matters worse, our metal lab was too hard on 80413

 

Assaf

 

 

Edited 10 March , 2020 by assafx

[shippingsteel]

Assaf, thanks for adding the two extra photos of the 1912 headstamp variation. I was wanting confirmation on the D stamping and both photos show it clearly. Yes you may want to have a word with your cataloguing department as their slack system caused us all the issues with the so-called mystery rifle cartridge.!! Headstamp photos and side-profile photos MUST have individual reference numbers that can identify the item and allow this information to be all linked together. Talk about sending me on a "wild goose chase".! 

 

Cheers, SS

[shippingsteel]

On 31/01/2020 at 08:37, shippingsteel said:

This 1912 case has the letter D stamped on it, which in that period would normally be associated with manufacture by the Koniglich Sachsisch Patronenfabrik, Dresden ... and further the asterisk mark was used in the German system to signify "brass material".

 

Regarding the manufacturer of the 1912 headstamp cartridges, once again I will go back to my original speculation and maintain they are German manufactured. Further study of the headstamp listing provided on the IAA forum page shows that other German manufacturers also followed on with the Austrian pattern of quadrant headstamp marking (including Heinrich Utendorffer of Nuremberg and Braun & Bloem of Dusseldorf) whilst producing the Gasser Revolver ammunition. 

 

My sole physical reference source on handguns (German Military Handguns 1879-1918, by John Walter) also has 2 of the stampings found on these headstamps listed as being German markings from the period. The asterisk denoting 'brass material' and the letter D indicating manufacture by Koniglich Sachsisch Patronenfabrik of Dresden. Also the Ottomans were sourcing the bulk of their military requirements from Germany during this pre-war period ... so for mine everything seems to fit. 

 

Cheers, SS

[assafx]

I found that in some cases, the wild goose chase gives you some interesting insights. the interesting is that out of three sites in which i had Gassar finds, two were with 1873 revolvers but without ammunition and this one, with casings but without a revolver 😀

 

regarding the asterisk, i was under the impression that it was post great war.

 

Assaf

[shippingsteel]

On 10/03/2020 at 10:17, shippingsteel said:

 

 

 

We should not disregard the German manufacture of ammunition for the Gasser revolvers simply because they were predominantly an Austrian or Balkan weapon. Examples of such German manufacture are recorded and easily supported including this photo I posted previously. The cartridge shown in the top right of photo is made by H.Utendorffer of Nuremberg ( 18/H/91/U )

 

Cheers, SS 

[assafx]

1 hour ago, shippingsteel said:

 

We should not disregard the German manufacture of ammunition for the Gasser revolvers simply because they were predominantly an Austrian or Balkan weapon. Examples of such German manufacture are recorded and easily supported including this photo I posted previously. The cartridge shown in the top right of photo is made by H.Utendorffer of Nuremberg ( 18/H/91/U )

 

Cheers, SS 

I do not disregard it, there was also a good private market for these guns in the balkans.

my only issue as i posted above is that regarding the asterisk, i was under the impression that it was post great war.

 

Assaf