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Remembered Today:

Austrian casings?


assafx

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Hi All,

 

I need to write on ammunition from an excavation and could not ID these casings with the books i own.

The headstamp design looks like Austrian to me and i will need your help.

 

1: *, III, 1912:

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2. 1891, III, III

 

spacer.png

 

Thank You,

Assaf

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Hello Assaf,

Yes they do appear to be Austrian style headstamps ... similar to the pattern used on these Austrian made cartridges below. 

We really need to determine the calibre of your cartridge cases, which would then narrow down the maker and possible end user.

Do you have the overall dimensions of an intact case or are they remnant pieces.? Is the base of the case rimmed or rimless.?

Cheers, SS

IMG_3847.JPG.1ff23a8aa21b908f752ac5a12a4e4a4c.JPG

Ref. https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/austrian-berdan-primers/13116/14

Edited by shippingsteel
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Assaf,

A little further research points towards the 11.3×36mmR Gasser Revolver as being the likely source weapon that your cases belong to.

Your No.1 case with headstamp  19 / asterisk / 12 / D  and your No.2 case with headstamp  18 / III / 91 / III  are both known examples in this calibre for the Gasser Revolver. Hopefully your measurement of the physical dimensions will help confirm this identification.

Cheers, SS

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18 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Assaf,

A little further research points towards the 11.3×36mmR Gasser Revolver as being the likely source weapon that your cases belong to.

Your No.1 case with headstamp  19 / asterisk / 12 / D  and your No.2 case with headstamp  18 / III / 91 / III  are both known examples in this calibre for the Gasser Revolver. Hopefully your measurement of the physical dimensions will help confirm this identification.

Cheers, SS

 

Hi S^S

 

It will be hard for me to get the exec measurements for the next 6-8 weeks, since i'm on sick leave from work.

I do have some photographs of three casings from their side, as you guessed, items from an archeological excavation are not always in good condition.

In one case we have, what seems to be a rifle case, in another we might have a pistol case and the third is just ripped.

All of the cases are Rimmed and in all, i have 4 of the 1912 design and one from the 1891 design.

do you have any idea regarding the manufacturer?

 

Thank you,

 

Assaf

 

DSC_1944.jpg.14462a71d9b82743d7b359090720d564.jpg

DSC_1946.jpg.02a1712991f5083978fb77ceb1fbc3dd.jpg

DSC_1948.jpg.1221ede1880e82570ba7e0df23d8e5f4.jpg

 

Edited by assafx
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Good to see you back SS - hope youv'e not been affected by the fires?

 

Ok, dumb question - you know me - the Roman numerals on those cases represent the month?

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16 hours ago, assafx said:

I do have some photographs of three casings from their side, as you guessed, items from an archeological excavation are not always in good condition.

In one case we have, what seems to be a rifle case, in another we might have a pistol case and the third is just ripped.

All of the cases are Rimmed and in all, i have 4 of the 1912 design and one from the 1891 design.

 

 

One thing is for certain Assaf, your dig findings never fail to unleash another veritable mystery upon us here at the forum.! 

When I asked for the dimensions I never would have expected to see such a long case ... definitely 'spanner in works' etc.!

 

But firstly I am quite confident we can allot at least 1 of these specimens to the 11.3×36mmR Gasser Revolver "basket". :)

So your #2 case with the 1891 date numbered 80758 is I believe an exact match going by the headstamps and dimensions.

There is an informative thread on the IAA forum HERE which clearly details this 18 / III / 91 / III headstamp amongst its listing.

 

As for the #1 case dated 1912 it is the mystery one because of its very long case length. I'm not sure exactly what that could be.

It did seem a bit odd to me as looking very closely the headstamp pattern does appear slightly different with a 'concentric circle'.?

This makes me wonder if the Austrian connection is actually a 'red herring' - and that it is from another country and manufacturer.?

This 1912 case has the letter D stamped on it, which in that period would normally be associated with manufacture by the Koniglich Sachsisch Patronenfabrik, Dresden ... and further the asterisk mark was used in the German system to signify "brass material".

 

Cheers, SS

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Well this 'long case' really has me baffled. I'd love to be able to get the calipers on the thing right now and measure it up.!

It certainly isn't one of the 'mainstream' military cartridges of the era such as a Mauser or Mannlicher type of ammunition.

It appears to be an 'obsolete' black powder calibre (that was perhaps a second-line weapon) and virtually straight-walled.?

 

Cheers, SS

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8 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

 

One thing is for certain Assaf, your dig findings never fail to unleash another veritable mystery upon us here at the forum.! 

When I asked for the dimensions I never would have expected to see such a long case ... definitely 'spanner in works' etc.!

 

But firstly I am quite confident we can allot at least 1 of these specimens to the 11.3×36mmR Gasser Revolver "basket". :)

So your #2 case with the 1891 date numbered 80758 is I believe an exact match going by the headstamps and dimensions.

There is an informative thread on the IAA forum HERE which clearly details this 18 / III / 91 / III headstamp amongst its listing.

 

As for the #1 case dated 1912 it is the mystery one because of its very long case length. I'm not sure exactly what that could be.

It did seem a bit odd to me as looking very closely the headstamp pattern does appear slightly different with a 'concentric circle'.?

This makes me wonder if the Austrian connection is actually a 'red herring' - and that it is from another country and manufacturer.?

This 1912 case has the letter D stamped on it, which in that period would normally be associated with manufacture by the Koniglich Sachsisch Patronenfabrik, Dresden ... and further the asterisk mark was used in the German system to signify "brass material".

 

Cheers, SS

these mysteries are giving me headaches but are a learning experience.

i've read the thread and i'm wondering if the long case is from a Kropatschek carbine.

it will wait until i'll be back at the office and take a proper measurements to all the casings.

i should have a similar Gassar revolver case, in bad condition in a site where the remains of a 1873 Gassar was fond. i will try to look for photographs.

 

Regarding the D headstamp, why would the Germans keep the Austrian style? was the asterisk in use pre WWII?

 

Assaf

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36 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Well this 'long case' really has me baffled. I'd love to be able to get the calipers on the thing right now and measure it up.!

It certainly isn't one of the 'mainstream' military cartridges of the era such as a Mauser or Mannlicher type of ammunition.

It appears to be an 'obsolete' black powder calibre (that was perhaps a second-line weapon) and virtually straight-walled.?

 

Cheers, SS

i won't be surprised if it is. to make matters worse, it was found in the remains of an Arab village that was abandoned in 1948.

so i have classic WWI ammo, maybe from the advance after the third battle of Gaza, and 1940's ammo from both sides.

to this we need to add the fact that its very possible that part of the finds are from the local arms market and was owned by one of the inhabitants.

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Ahh yes, good to know the background information about the locality. The strange part is ... if an obsolete black powder calibre, who is making ammunition for it in 1912 ... and who is still requiring ammunition for it in 1912.? These are the questions that I find particularly baffling ...

But then again given the location and the Ottoman Empire at the time - then anything IS possible.! Perhaps it is ammunition for the remaining refurbished and bored out Peabody-Martini rifles in a Musket type cartridge.? See illustration at bottom of THIS page ...

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42 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Ahh yes, good to know the background information about the locality. The strange part is ... if an obsolete black powder calibre, who is making ammunition for it in 1912 ... and who is still requiring ammunition for it in 1912.? These are the questions that I find particularly baffling ...

But then again given the location and the Ottoman Empire at the time - then anything IS possible.! Perhaps it is ammunition for the remaining refurbished and bored out Peabody-Martini rifles in a Musket type cartridge.? See illustration at bottom of THIS page ...

As you recall, i had a long journey to prove there was an Ottoman use of the Gras rifle.

We cannot rule out personal use / collection, an Austrian artillery unit (there was an artillery brigade at the Palestine front), or some sort of captured equipment being reused.

I think that Trajan will know more then us regarding the Peabody conversion which started around 1912 as i recall but to the modern 7.65 caliber.

Edited by assafx
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49 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

... Perhaps it is ammunition for the remaining refurbished and bored out Peabody-Martini rifles in a Musket type cartridge.? See illustration at bottom of THIS page ...

 

6 minutes ago, assafx said:

... I think that Trajan will know more then us regarding the Peabody conversion which started around 1912 as i recall but to the modern 7.65 caliber.

 

I need to check, and my source is not too hand, but SS, as is indicated on that page, that cartridge was - IIRC - for the Peabody-Martini US version.

 

Assaf, yes, the earliest conversions are 1327 so 1911/1912, although the contract for the conversions was in early 1910. 

 

Could it be a cartridge for one of the Turkish-made Martini-Henry clones? I have never studied these, but they were being made at Istanbul from 1881+

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7 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

 

I need to check, and my source is not too hand, but SS, as is indicated on that page, that cartridge was - IIRC - for the Peabody-Martini US version.

 

Assaf, yes, the earliest conversions are 1327 so 1911/1912, although the contract for the conversions was in early 1910. 

 

Could it be a cartridge for one of the Turkish-made Martini-Henry clones? I have never studied these, but they were being made at Istanbul from 1881+

 

this reminds me that you still owe me a checkup on the P-M and clones numbers from your article !

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17 minutes ago, assafx said:

 

this reminds me that you still owe me a checkup on the P-M and clones numbers from your article !

 

Rats, I had forgotten about that... Give me a week or two - term is about to start!

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At the moment the main candidate that I am considering for this 'long case' is the .43 Egyptian otherwise known as the ammunition for the Remington Rolling Block rifle which saw widespread use in the Middle East and which we know the Turks were in possession of. The case length dimensions are a good match and with a fire formed case from a well-used rifle the shape could also well fit. Certainly the base profile and primer pocket size is a very good match. Don't ask me how the headstamp and manufacturer fits in to this equation, but I guess someone had to be supplying ammunition to the Ottomans in 1912.?

 

Cheers, SS

Rem43Egypt.jpg.a7a68ddeb86bd603823dbb821a80990b.jpg

Ref.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?304678-My-old-Remington-rolling-Block-in-43-Egyptian/page2

Edited by shippingsteel
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There is historical evidence, from two sources, of remington and winchester repeating rifles used by the Ottoman army in 1914-15.

my issues with that are:

1. i don't see a bottle neck shape on image 80631.

2. i think that the ottomans had the means to produce such ammunition, as they did with the m1887 and even with the more modern 7.65mm.

 

Assaf

 

 

Edited by assafx
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1 hour ago, assafx said:

... i think that the ottomans had the means to produce such ammunition, as they did with the m1887 and even with the more modern 7.65mm....

 

They certainly did! IIRC, main factories were Baruthane-i Amire, at Bakırköy, and Zeytinburnu, under the control of the İmalat-ı Harbiye Müdüriyeti. There is a Turkish article on this subject published in 2016 but I haven't read it yet... I can forward details if required.

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11 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

They certainly did! IIRC, main factories were Baruthane-i Amire, at Bakırköy, and Zeytinburnu, under the control of the İmalat-ı Harbiye Müdüriyeti. There is a Turkish article on this subject published in 2016 but I haven't read it yet... I can forward details if required.

please let this article be in english, if so please send me a link

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Sadly it is not... And I know from experience that Google translate Turkish to English is not very reliable. You can find it at: https://dergipark.org.tr/en/download/article-file/557268

 

I had a quick look through and it seems a serious piece of work. They were certainly making ammunition pre-ww1. E.g., p.87, if I have read it correctly, and I paraphrase, in 1911 the İmalat-ı Harbiye ammunition factory was making between 80,000 and 100,000 Mauser-type cartridges per day for the modified Peabody, and this could be increased to 200,000 cartridges per day in wartime, while if working day and night they could make 400,000 cartridges per day.

 

Julian

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i will try to have a look at that. i do know, from the finds about the local production, its good to know that they have numbers .

 

Thank You

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I might be able to get a former post-graduate student of mine to translate it - she owes me a major favour for all the translations I did for her from French and German for her thesis...:unsure:

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i'll try to ask one of my best friends how much turkish he remembe. i will update.

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On 01/02/2020 at 14:20, assafx said:

There is historical evidence, from two sources, of remington and winchester repeating rifles used by the Ottoman army in 1914-15.

my issues with that are:

1. i don't see a bottle neck shape on image 80631.

2. i think that the ottomans had the means to produce such ammunition, as they did with the m1887 and even with the more modern 7.65mm.

 

The Ottomans could produce their own ammunition, but they still relied heavily on the German supply of not only loaded cartridges, but of the other components such as unloaded cases and projectiles. I have read from a number of sources that the pre-war period was very busy regarding the supply of ammunition from German manufacturers, and in that light I see the date of 1912 on these long cases as especially important, not only in identifying the origin of the headstamps, but also in the possibility of the usage of unloaded cases in the production of Ottoman ammunition for use in the new refurbishment of their once-obsolete old blackpowder rifles. 

 

There is a good summary of the situation found here http://www.turkeyswar.com/army/weaponry/

 

"Local production was far from being sufficient to meet the needs for ammunition and therefore new orders were placed at German plants. 250 million pieces of battle cartridges and 10 million pieces of training cartridges were ordered at the Deutsche Waffen und Munitions Fabrik in Karlsruhe and a further 50 million pieces of battle cartridges were ordered at the plants of Erhart and Polte.

The total cost of newly purchased ammunition was 1.7 million golden liras, of which 15 percent was paid in advance and the rest in instalments at an annual interest of six percent. In 1912, the total number of cartridges available increased to 886 million pieces including those imported from Germany and manufactured locally."

 

This long case in question, to my knowledge, is unlike any of the mainstream military cartridges of the period, being both Rimmed and decidedly straight-walled. This makes me wonder if it is not a locally produced cartridge made to suit one of their newly refurbished weapons.? I have tried to gauge the neck diameter of that example case, and it does look very close to 9.5mm which happens to be the same size bullet as their older M1887 Mauser service rifle. Still much speculation and pondering to be done here I believe.! Hopefully some accurate measurements of the case will be able to provide some answers.

 

Cheers, SS

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1 hour ago, shippingsteel said:

... There is a good summary of the situation found here http://www.turkeyswar.com/army/weaponry/ ...

 

This long case in question, to my knowledge, is unlike any of the mainstream military cartridges of the period, being both Rimmed and decidedly straight-walled. This makes me wonder if it is not a locally produced cartridge made to suit one of their newly refurbished weapons.?

 

Well, SS, you all know me well enough to know I don't trust unsourced information! I wonder where that information came from? Anyway, yes, the workers at the Zeytinburnu factory were complaining on 29th January 1910 that they had insufficient cartridge cases and 'would have to order these from Germany' - See Zengin 2016, 83. So case supply from Germany is no problem - but why the use of the 'Arabic' date 1912 on Assaf's case? 

 

And what 'newly refurbished weapons' do you have in mind SS? I can't think of any off-hand except the Peabpdy-Martini - and this is not for that!

 

My own preference here, given the 'Arabic' date used, is that this is US supplied for the few 1866 Winchester's still hanging around - but I freely confess I know nothing about these or the supply of ammunition from the US to the Ottoman Empire, never mind the crucial matter of calibre, where I happily bow to you expertise SS!

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47 minutes ago, trajan said:

My own preference here, given the 'Arabic' date used, is that this is US supplied for the few 1866 Winchester's still hanging around - but I freely confess I know nothing about these or the supply of ammunition from the US to the Ottoman Empire, never mind the crucial matter of calibre, where I happily bow to you expertise SS!

 

Well that is certainly an easy "first strike" given that the Winchester 1866 model the Turks had was, to my knowledge, chambered in .44 Henry RIMFIRE and not centrefire as in this specimen case #80631, meaning it requires a case with NO visible primer.! You only get two more "guesses" ... :lol:

 

PS. This is one source that I have used before regarding the Ottoman's dealing with the German arms manufacturers

Rulers, Guns, and Money: The Global Arms Trade in the Age of Imperialism. by Jonathan A. Grant. 2007, from p.221

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