Webley Mk1 Service Revolver

[Thewebleyman]

Can anyone identify the unit and date from the backstrap inscription of this Webley revolver please ?

[Dave66]

The only thing I can think of it the lovat scouts yeomanry....quite happy to be corrected though as only a hunch.😀.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/2nd-lovats-scouts-yeomanry/

 

Dave.

[Thewebleyman]

Hello Dave that was/is my view too. The only issue I have is the date which I think is May 1914. Bearing in mind the Mk 1 had been superseded by 5 models at least from its manufacture date to 1914 I find it odd that a gun as obsolete as this would be issued to a front-line unit such as the Scouts. I know that the non front-line units did get issued with older weapons once they'd been overtaken by newer models but I wouldn't have expected it in this case …. unless the date is wrong of course.

 

Thanks Dave.

[Dave66]

Date looks fine,

as they were Territorials I’m wondering if the issue of an older weapon was due to funding...cheaper to supply?

 

Dave.

[MikB]

'Obsolete' is not really appropriate to previous models of .455 break-top Webleys in WW1. They were functionally identical and many parts were interchangeable. Pistols were in short supply, so there'd be no reason not to issue previous types.

[Thewebleyman]

MikB I agree that in the literal meaning of obsolete these Mk 1's weren't. However, in military terms they had been replaced by a number of later variants from 1900 onwards. Pistols were in short supply but there would have been more than enough Mk II's , III's, and IV's to issue out in 1914 and IMO these models would have been released before the Mk 1 particularly given the fact that War hadn't even been declared when this one was issued and no-one anticipated what was to come.

[Gunner Bailey]

There's a cycle.

 

1.Current - In use, current specification

 

2.Obsolescent - in use, not to be replaced, stocks running down

 

3.Obsolete - possible to find still being used but in small numbers. Probably been replaced by another  item.

 

Natural overlaps will occur at stages 2 and 3.

 

IMHO.

 

 

[Joolz]

As part of the various model upgrades, weren't these made 'beefier' to handle the transition from black powder propellant to smokeless. How would a Mk1 stand up to use with the service ammunition issued during the war? Would the person who owned it have to obtain specific ammunition or could they safely use the service round?

[Thewebleyman]

Joolz , that's a good point. In my experience of shooting Webleys they are pretty bomb-proof but even so allowances would have to be made. I don't recall any later proof markings but will have a look when I next venture to the gun safe.

[MikB]

14 hours ago, Thewebleyman said:

Joolz , that's a good point. In my experience of shooting Webleys they are pretty bomb-proof but even so allowances would have to be made. I don't recall any later proof markings but will have a look when I next venture to the gun safe.

 

Well, some time in 80s or 90s Fultons of Bisley had a Webley .455 (IIRC a Mk.VI) in their window with the top 3 chambers blown open - I think they blamed wet ammunition (!!) but can't remember whether it was Mk.II ball or reloads. It wasn't .45 ACP or .455 Self-Loading, though the latter was declared in small arms manuals to carry that danger. But I think the service .455 revolver loads were worked up in the knowledge that they might get stuffed into any .455 Webley marks, so they were effectively 'Nitro For Black' loads. This could well be because many pre-War and late C19 Webleys were obviously going to be taken on service by WW1 officer class personnel, having been purchased years earlier by forebears.

[Thewebleyman]

Shame I missed it, I would have  liked to see that !

[MikB]

1 hour ago, Thewebleyman said:

Shame I missed it, I would have  liked to see that !

If it was reloads, suspicion would probably have fallen on Nobel No.3 Pistol Powder, a very fast burner which legend implied could detonate in low loading densities, though AFAIK this was never proved, and the powder disappeared off the market around that time. The pressure had torn open the top chamber and burst the adjacent chamber on each side - I don't know whether those were loaded at the time - and I *think* the topstrap had fractured too. It seemed to me the damage would've taken more than the theoretical 210-odd ft.lb. energy from a single round to do all that. Again I'm not certain, but I think the shooter escaped serious injury.

[Thewebleyman]

Well,  Webley's were built like the proverbial lavatory door. It could have been caused by a number of things, either it was a double load or possibly a rare weakness in the cylinder, or even that a round was already stuck in the barrel. I've seen a Luger barrel split on the firing point and I myself had the barrel of a Webley pistol suffer damage to an over loaded round, but it didn't blow up thankfully.

[Andrew Upton]

4 hours ago, MikB said:

...Well, some time in 80s or 90s Fultons of Bisley had a Webley .455 (IIRC a Mk.VI) in their window with the top 3 chambers blown open - I think they blamed wet ammunition (!!) but can't remember whether it was Mk.II ball or reloads. It wasn't .45 ACP or .455 Self-Loading, though the latter was declared in small arms manuals to carry that danger....

 

4 hours ago, Thewebleyman said:

Shame I missed it, I would have  liked to see that !

 

3 hours ago, MikB said:

...The pressure had torn open the top chamber and burst the adjacent chamber on each side - I don't know whether those were loaded at the time - and I *think* the topstrap had fractured too. It seemed to me the damage would've taken more than the theoretical 210-odd ft.lb. energy from a single round to do all that. Again I'm not certain, but I think the shooter escaped serious injury....

 

I'm not sure if it the exact same example (as Fultons of Bisley is not listed amongst the contributors) but my 1995 edition of "The Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Pistols And Revolvers" by Major Frederick Myatt M.C. shows on page 143 an example with identical damage to that described, and I have attached a photo below:

 

 

Edited 27 January , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[MikB]

17 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

 

 

I'm not sure if it the exact same example (as Fultons of Bisley is not listed amongst the contributors) but my 1995 edition of "The Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Pistols And Revolvers" by Major Frederick Myatt M.C. shows on page 143 an example with identical damage to that described, and I have attached a photo below:

 

 

It was, of course, a good while ago, but to my memory the Fultons exhibit was messier than that - I think with visible damage to the stirrup too.

[reese williams]

Damage of that kind is usually the result of an obstructed barrel or a double charged round. While firing .45ACP or nitro .455 loads in a MkI could conceivably rupture the cylinder it is more likely to stretch the frame, bend the stirrup pin/screw and loosen the latch. I've seen modern revolvers with exploded cylinders and always the result of plugged barrel or bad reloads. Large numbers of MkIs were given to the Navy during the early part of the war, were they not? Was ammunition segregated by Mk? It may well have been, with MkI ammo going to the Navy and MkII to the land service. Where's Tony when we need him?

[MikB]

I think it's highly unlikely any of the relevant authorities or design teams thought it worth trying to distinguish different marks of Webley .455 revolver capable of handling different marks of ball - with Mk.I black and Mk.I cordite rounds kicking about, as well as Mk.II and small quantities of (non -Conventional) Mk.III. Folk also regularly used the slightly more powerful .450 revolver rounds in .455 guns.

[Thewebleyman]

This is most interesting.I wish I'd taken a photo of the shattered Luger. In those days cameras were cameras and not a telephone too !

[MikB]

38 minutes ago, Thewebleyman said:

This is most interesting.I wish I'd taken a photo of the shattered Luger. In those days cameras were cameras and not a telephone too !

 

I've broken Lugers 4 different ways - 3 of them proved repairable - but not burst a barrel. Presumably there was a lodged bullet due to an unburnt - or more likely absent - charge, but the shooter must've ignored a failure to reload or hold open?

[Thewebleyman]

I think , from memory it was found that there was already one up the spout !

 

[MikB]

1 hour ago, Thewebleyman said:

I think , from memory it was found that there was already one up the spout !

 

Then the blockage causing the burst was presumably something other than the previous bullet? Because it's hard to see that the gun would've self-loaded the next round if the previous bullet actually failed to depart. Lugers generally need a bit more than a minimum load to function well anyway.

[Thewebleyman]

I can't be certain of the cause of the mishap unfortunately. 

[robins2]

Ive seen similar damage to modern fire arms (revolvers) caused by the previous  round lacking sufficient powder charge having the projectile lodge part way down the barrel, when the next round was fired the the cartridge in the cylinder had no way to expel the force of the round firing, thus causing the explosion to rupture the cylinder and blow the back strap  upwards

[Banzai]

While I can't chime in on the marking, I can say that Mk. 1's were certainly in front line use well through WW1.

 

They may have been "replaced" by subsequent Mk's, but were not removed. A relative of mine carried a Mk. 1 and was front line active duty as an Infantry Lt. in the Canadian EF.

 

All kinds of small arms were in high demand and short supply, in an ideal scenario old Mk's would be replaced when they became "obsolete" but in 1914 that was not the case.

 

Think of it like the newest iPhone model, sure, it exists, and some people have it, but the vast majority of people have slightly older models. If it isn't broken don't replace it

Edited 11 February , 2020 by Banzai
Typo fixed

[MikB]

2 hours ago, Banzai said:

While I can't chime in on the marking, I can say that Mk. 1's were certainly in front line use well through WW1.

 

They may have been "replaced" by subsequent Mk's, but were not removed. A relative of mine carried a Mk. 1 and was front line active duty as an Infantry Lt. in the Canadian EF.

 

All kinds of small arms were in high demand and short supply, in an ideal scenario old Mk's would be replaced when they became "obsolete" but in 1914 that was not the case.

 

Think of it like the newest iPhone model, sure, it exists, and some people have it, but the vast majority of people have slightly older models. If it isn't broken don't replace it

 

That's the point I was trying to make above, and why all newer marks of .455 revolver ball would've been intended for flexible use in any mark of revolver.

Edited 11 February , 2020 by MikB