A curious photograph. Where is this soldier? Malta?

[PHalsall]

Hi,

 

A while ago I completed research into the experiences of my grandfather, 1348 Lance Corporal James Irwin, 4th Battalion Cheshire Regiment, then 200141 Imperial Camel Corps. However, a photograph (attached) has recently been unearthed that might shed further light on the story. In the photograph he is shown standing alongside a second soldier who is seated. The hand on the shoulder suggests friendship. I do not know where the photograph was taken and I hoping that someone more expert than me could suggest where he is at the time. 

 

Jim first saw action at Suvla Bay, suffered a shrapnel injury and had a short spell in hospital in Malta before joining the Imperial Camel Corps, ICC. He fought with them through Palestine until captured with Colonel Newcombe near Beersheeba and imprisoned in the Taurus mountains at Gelebek. He eventually escaping on the roof of a train.

 

The photograph must have been taken at some point in this story. I suspect he is recuperating in Malta. The light clothing and shoes. The plants on the wall behind the men look like jasmine or similar. I think I can see a birdcage above the doorway. The ground seems to be fairly solid / dry / rocky as the chair legs are not sinking into it. Perhaps the style of the chair would be significant to someone.

 

If anyone can identify the location with more certainty I would be very grateful. Even better if an expert on medical services can tell me where on Malta / which hospital he was treated in.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

 

 

Edited 12 December , 2019 by PHalsall

[Pat Atkins]

That brickwork certainly isn't typically Maltese, though of course it doesn't rule the island out. I wonder if a botanist or gardener could make anything of the plants?

Edited 12 December , 2019 by Pat Atkins

[Alisonmallen62]

Both look like they have been through it, eyes in particular looked tired.  Did your grandfather have a brother?  I just thought there was a slight resemblance around the eyes/eyebrows.  I haven’t seen small brickwork like that in Malta but have seen lots of dark chairs like that with a rounded open style back.  Above the door the plant looks like a fern. At the side of the chair seems to be a fingerprint when photo enlarged.  Is there someone in the window? 

[Ken Lees]

Looks more like England than Malta to me. 

[Old Owl]

11 minutes ago, Ken Lees said:

Looks more like England than Malta to me. 

 

I would agree--the brickwork and the window in the background look very English to me.

[seaJane]

Another vote for England - the chequered brickwork and the proportions of the window, and the trellis.

[PHalsall]

I think thats a consensus. I must admit on re-inspection it was the Georgian style of the windows that struck me. A false lead. I suspect that this was taken after the war when he would be about 22 and he and his friend have retained the trousers - perhaps they're the only ones they have. The similarity in their outfits must mean something, perhaps they are some form of demob outfit?

 

Thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated as ever!

 

Pete

[Gardenerbill]

The brickwork is Flemish Bond a style popular in the Georgian period in England which ties in with the Georgian style windows.

[Andrew Upton]

17 hours ago, PHalsall said:

...A while ago I completed research into the experiences of my grandfather, 1348 Lance Corporal James Irwin, 4th Battalion Cheshire Regiment, then 200141 Imperial Camel Corps. However, a photograph (attached) has recently been unearthed that might shed further light on the story. In the photograph he is shown standing alongside a second soldier who is seated. The hand on the shoulder suggests friendship. I do not know where the photograph was taken and I hoping that someone more expert than me could suggest where he is at the time...

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, PHalsall said:

... I suspect that this was taken after the war when he would be about 22 and he and his friend have retained the trousers - perhaps they're the only ones they have...

 

Your grandfather appears to have an ID disc attached to his braces strap on his right side. This is quite commonly seen on wartime photos as a back-up to the standard practice of wearing them round the neck. I would say this makes it very unlikely to be a post-war photo.

[PHalsall]

Thanks Andrew, that's a great spot. Perhaps the answer is that he is on leave and back in England when the photo was taken. He certainly did not enjoy any leave once he had left these shores for Suvla Bay. From there it was the ICC in Eygpt and Palestine and then captivity. However, the 1/4 Cheshires, though a first line battalion, and mobilised as soon as war was declared, were not used for almost a year. They were moved around various locations in England, training etc. I know that he had one spell on leave in London. Perhaps that is the one or some similar occasion while still on these shores.

 

Thanks

 

Pete

[TTracer44]

On 13/12/2019 at 10:50, Gardenerbill said:

The brickwork is Flemish Bond a style popular in the Georgian period in England which ties in with the Georgian style windows.

Well spotted gardenerbill, I would say the plant growing up the trestle to left of seated man is a small flowered clematis, so very much old English cottage garden.

could the seated man be his father!

Den

[PHalsall]

Thanks Den. As Alison suggested earlier, there seems some resemblance. However, I do think that that is coincidental. James Irwin has a surviving son and daughter, both in their 90s and both have viewed the photo and do not recognise the seated man. I think the English setting is confirmed by all of the expert insights provided in the thread, but also by his son's daughters perception that the layout of the garden is very similar to the house James lived in at the time - similar windows, similar path leading towards the house. However, his own home lacked the trellis and the plants. I suspect that the photograph may have been taken in a neighbour's back garden (someone with more interest in gardening!). It seems possible that the seated man is another soldier on leave, perhaps also from the 1/4 Cheshires and they are on leave together? The address for my grandfather was Rodney Street, Birkenhead so it seems possible that the mystery man, seated, is a soldier from the Cheshires whose address was in Rodney Street. I dont know if its possible to identify someone from that information?

 

Thanks again

 

Pete 

[travers61]

If you can find the 1918 or 1919 Absent Voter Lists for Rodney Street they should list the men in the street in the forces registered to vote.  Not all of these have survived.

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

[PHalsall]

Thanks travers61. Ivejust had a look on the areas covered in the link you provided and unfortunately Cheshire does not seem to be an area for which records have survived. A very creative suggestion, I would never have thought of that.

 

A new photograph has emerged which shows Jim in the back garden of his house in Rodney Street, which his son believes shows him in his territorial uniform just before war started. It seems very clear the the house in the background is of very similar design to that in the original photograph. I think its now fair to assume that the location is Rodney Street or at least a similar street in the area. The remaining mystery is the identity of the seated man.....

 

Pete 

[travers61]

Sometimes they are at the local record offices, just not widly known about or centrally listed, though no idea if it would be Liverpool, or Cheshire records office.

 

What a great picture of your grandfather to have & reminds us what they were all leaving behind when they went to fight.

[johnboy]

Is a photographers name on the back of 1st pic?

[Pat Atkins]

That second picture is a good one, thanks for posting it. The rifle, at a guess, could suggest a Territorial soldier (at least insofar as it doesn't look like a SMLE, anyway), perhaps ditto the leather equipment; the bandolier must also be significant (I associate them with mounted service of some kind, but am by no means knowledgeable). You might try posting it in the Postcards thread, and seeing what the experts can come up with on those two points? 

 

Pat

[PHalsall]

Thanks again everybody.

 

I will ask my uncle, Jim's son, who has the original photograph to look on the back for any additional information. Lets see what happens there.

 

I will pursue the records office as suggested by travers61 - its easy to fall into the error of thinking that if something is not online it doesn't exist.

 

The observations regarding his equipment and uniform are very interesting. The bandolier is there as the 4th Cheshire's were a yeomanry unit. As fate would have it he never sat on a horse at any point throughout the war. They were dismounted to fight at Suvla Bay, and then he transferred to the ICC to ride a camel instead. They favoured yeomanry men as recruits and reckoned it impossible to train a man to ride a camel who had not first learnt to ride a horse. The rifle is interesting, Colonel Arthur Crookenden, author of 'The Cheshire Regiment in the Great War', notes that at some point during 1915, while still preparing in Britain, they were issued with Japanese rifles, presumably due to a shortage of the regular issue version. My particular favourite is the cap badge. When he was captured as part of Colonel Newcombe's force near Beersheba in the 3rd Battle of Gaza the Turks took away the men's boots, shirts and any other belongings of value. They were then marched barefooted at least as far as Aleppo and possibly further before arriving at Gelebek in the Taurus Mountains. he eventually escaped to Constantinople and from there back to Birkenhead. The significance of the cap badge being that he managed to keep that, and the ICC equivalent in his possession throughout the ordeal. I think there is something in that about the value to a POW of keeping hold of something that reminded him he was still a British soldier despite his circumstances in captivity.. I'll see what the postcards thread have to say, thanks.

[Pat Atkins]

He was clearly  man of some spirit!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 15/12/2019 at 23:19, PHalsall said:

Ivejust had a look on the areas covered in the link you provided and unfortunately Cheshire does not seem to be an area for which records have survived.

Are you quite sure?

The Long Long Trail website says that an AVL for  Birkenhead East is held at Birkenhead Library.

(I'm guessing that Rodney Street was in the then Birkenhead East constituency in 1918?

I'm not up on my Birkenhead geography, but Wikipedia says that the boundaries of the Birkenhead East were:

"The County Borough of Birkenhead wards of Argyle, Bebington, Clifton, Egerton, and Mersey, and the part of the borough which lay between the eastern boundary of Argyle, Mersey and Bebington wards and the centre of the bed of the River Mersey."

Why they couldn't just say what wards comprised the constituency I don't know..."

Why not have a look in the town library?

 

[PHalsall]

Thanks Dai, that's very helpful. I'll get over to Birkenhead! 

Had a root around to try to identify the ward he was living in. Its now Birkenhead & Tranmere, its only  few streets away from the Mersey so very much in the East as far as Birkenhead is concerned. Looks like a good match.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[Hywyn]

He is in the East AVL* at 113 Rodney Street as 200140 Cpl, 4th Cheshires. No one else showing to that address.

 

These are 4th Cheshire men in Rodney Street (House number showing first):

 

17 201277 Edward James Hughes Dugard

 

29 200232 William henry Jackson

 

65 200140 Sydney Henshaw Edwards

 

113  200141 James Irwin

 

115 200427 John Henry Jones

 

121 200439 Robert Over

 

124 200047 Ralph R Shape

 

Of course, these will not be all of the men from that street who joined up into 4th Cheshires but merely those that are shown as such in this document. There will be some who are casualties, discharged, transferred out etc etc 

 

 

 

 

 

* I bought a copy years ago to extract RWF men

 

edit: Rodney Street is in Clifton ward

Edited 19 December , 2019 by Hywyn

[Gardenerbill]

Looking on Google street view 113 Rodney Street still exists and has the Flemish bond brickwork:

 

[Gardenerbill]

1911 Census might be revealing?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

47 minutes ago, Hywyn said:

He is in the East AVL* at 113 Rodney Street as 200140 Cpl, 4th Cheshires. No one else showing to that address.

 

These are 4th Cheshire men in Rodney Street (House number showing first):

 

17 201277 Edward James Hughes Dugard

29 200232 William henry Jackson

65 200140 Sydney Henshaw Edwards

113  200141 James Irwin

115 200427 John Henry Jones

121 200439 Robert Over

124 200047 Ralph R Shape

Nice one Hywyn.