A curious photograph. Where is this soldier? Malta?

[Pat Atkins]

He's in the 1911 Census at the same address, aged 15, with his father, mother, sister and two brothers.

[Gardenerbill]

Hi Pat,

I think posting the image of the 1911 census may contravene forum rules?

[PHalsall]

Hywyn, that's amazing, I really appreciate your going to the trouble and I never expected to unearth that level of fine detail. Saves me a trip to Birkenhead too! I suppose there is a possibility that the second man is John Henry Jones as they were next door neighbours, but of course it could have been any friend in Rodney Street or a neighbouring one of similar construction. I'll pass those names past his son in case he remembers his father having a friend so called.

 

Gardenerbill, that seems to confirm his son's memory that the picture of Jim alone was in his own back yard, and that the photo of the two men together is at some other house in the area. Thanks.

 

Amazing what can be learnt from a photograph!

 

Pete

 

[PHalsall]

Thanks Pat,

 

I'm sure half my ancestors must have worked in tanneries in those days, a common 'profession'. You can see that his two brothers were too young to join up, even by 1918, though it was a close call for Christopher.

 

Cheers,

 

Pete

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 minutes ago, PHalsall said:

but of course it could have been any friend in Rodney Street or a neighbouring one of similar construction.

 

Don't want to put ideas in your head, but that side of the street does have a back alleyway...

[PHalsall]

Haha! That's a great idea..

 

Cheers,

 

Pete

[PHalsall]

9 hours ago, Hywyn said:

He is in the East AVL* at 113 Rodney Street as 200140 Cpl, 4th Cheshires. No one else showing to that address.

 

These are 4th Cheshire men in Rodney Street (House number showing first):

 

17 201277 Edward James Hughes Dugard

 

29 200232 William henry Jackson

 

65 200140 Sydney Henshaw Edwards

 

113  200141 James Irwin

 

115 200427 John Henry Jones

 

121 200439 Robert Over

 

124 200047 Ralph R Shape

 

Of course, these will not be all of the men from that street who joined up into 4th Cheshires but merely those that are shown as such in this document. There will be some who are casualties, discharged, transferred out etc etc 

 

 

 

 

 

* I bought a copy years ago to extract RWF men

 

edit: Rodney Street is in Clifton ward

 

There is something else very interesting indeed in this post. Correct me if I am wrong but those numbers are all ICC numbers. My grandfather started out in the 4th Cheshires with number 1348, then acquired 200141 when transferred to the ICC. Imagine 7 Cameliers in one street in Birkenhead!

 

Cheers,

 

Pete

[Hywyn]

Pete

 

Those six digit numbers are Cheshire 4th Bn numbers (as is his).

 

He was not transferred to the ICC but was attached to them. See his Medal Roll (issued by Cheshire Regiment). I haven't read all your previous threads so don't know where you formed the idea that he was transferred to ICC. Some of those others might also have been attached to the ICC but you'd have to check their medal rolls entry.

 

4th Bn Cheshires was a Territorial Force (Infantry) Battalion. His 1348 number is the number he got when he enlisted. In 'early 1917' the whole TF was renumbered to 6 digit numbers. His 200141 number is from the block allocated to 4th Bn Cheshires

See  http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

 

Cheshire Regiment

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/cheshire-regiment/

 

 

 

[Hywyn]

[Pat Atkins]

13 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

Hi Pat,

I think posting the image of the 1911 census may contravene forum rules?

I'm not sure, but I'll take it down just in case - thanks for the heads-up.

 

Pat

[robins2]

On 13/12/2019 at 05:49, Andrew Upton said:

 

 

Your grandfather appears to have an ID disc attached to his braces strap on his right side. This is quite commonly seen on wartime photos as a back-up to the standard practice of wearing them round the neck. I would say this makes it very unlikely to be a post-war photo.

the disc looks to me  more like a medal  with a couple of bars???

[PHalsall]

Thanks Hywyn, got it now. Guilty of jumping to conclusions.....

 

Thats interesting robins2, he did get an MiD at Suvla Bay but no medal that I know of. I'll try and get a higher resolution scan though it might have to wait a while, the original is in Canada.

 

Cheers,

 

Pete

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

19 minutes ago, PHalsall said:

he did get an MiD at Suvla Bay but no medal that I know of.

You didn't get a medal for MiD, just the Oak Leaves emblem for the ribbon,  but he did get the BWM and VM as shown by his entry in the Medal Rolls.

Also entitled to the 14-15 Star also.

Edited 20 December , 2019 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[PHalsall]

Hi Dai

 

Yes I did realise that the MiD didnt come with a medal. Happily we have the 'certificate'. The oak leaves seem to have been lost.

 

A little unlucky with that one. He retrieved an injured officer from no-man's land under fire but the poor man died of his wounds, thus depriving him of the 'officer witness' that I understand was required for anything higher!

 

Thanks

 

Pete

[Andrew Upton]

5 hours ago, robins2 said:

the disc looks to me  more like a medal  with a couple of bars???

 

The "bar" is the size adjuster for the braces - if you look carefully you can see the matching one on the other side. As I said wearing an extra ID disc in this place is quite a typical wartime practice.

[m0rris]

Have just given the photo some spit and polish.

 

[PHalsall]

More than just spit and polish m0rris,  that's a tremendous improvement. His son and daughter will both be delighted, an early Christmas present!

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[m0rris]

That's a pleasure Pete. If you have a higher resolution file (300dpi) I can do that as well and then you can make a quality print.

 

Best wishes Will

[PHalsall]

That's very generous of you Will. The original is with Jim's son in Canada, I live in the uk. He is in his 90s but totally on the ball so I'll see if he can find a way to get a better quality scan. There are one or two neighbours who might help. Watch this space.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[m0rris]

That's excellent Pete. I will PM you my details.

[PHalsall]

That's brilliant, thanks. He will be delighted!

 

Pete