Messines Ridge British Cemetery: Case #1 - Unknown New Zealand Officer

[laughton]

On 29/01/2020 at 01:39, smclaren said:

18/6/17 Monday    Some of us Sgts & Lieut Walker came up to the subsidiary where 2nd Otago are. We relieve them tonight. Just saw a plane come down just near us. Don't know whether it was “there’s or ours”.

 

Jeff & Steve:

 

Not sure if you know, but if you want someone to get "pinged" if you have posted something specifically for them (as you did above) then put at "@" in from of their USERNAME such as @smclaren then click on their name when it appears. The same would go for @JeffMcN. If you have your notification settings set, you will get a message. If you want a shortcut to get to your settings, make sure you are logged in and then put this in your browser (or click on the link):

 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/notifications/options/

 

Steve had mentioned "Just saw a plane come down just near us" in his post. I had sent that on the Trevor @fetubi as the case of that aircraft had come up in many topics on the GWF and elsewhere. You can see that if you search the GWF for A4290 (https://www.greatwarforum.org/search/?q=A4290), which I am sure is the aircraft number that Steve's post references. Trevor is the author of The Sky Their Battlefield II, which is a "must have" if you are tracking the fate of aircraft and their crews in the Great War.

 

We also have a case on the GWF of a New Zealander who went down in the vicinity of Messines a month later. The submission was recently rejected by the CWGC, even before it got to the Air Services Branch for review, but we will likely appeal that decision at some point (this topic). In many similar cases we have found a number of references from ground troops reporting planes that have gone down, which has helped the cases. The Australian war diaries are particularly useful in that regard, the Canadians not so much.

 

Richard

[laughton]

14 hours ago, JeffMcN said:

Actually, as a Canadian, you might want to look into the Messines sector a bit more:

 

The Official Canadian History (Nicholson) makes little mention of the Canadians around Messines in 1915, other than for the trench raids at La Petite Douve in November 1915 (Chapter 4 Page 122).

 

There are references to the tunnellers in 1916. This one in particular is a good read:

 

Canadian Military History Volume 27 | Issue 2 Article 16 11-12-2018 - Brian Pascas
Clay-kickers of Flanders Fields: Canadian Tunnellers at Messines Ridge 1916-1917

 

My brain "clicked in" and I went back to what was the first (and only) volume of the Canadian History by Duguid (August 1914- September 1915) and there at the end of the book is Chapter XX "Ploegsteert and Hill 63 - 26 June - 13 September 1915". There was a 4,000 yard front but it was described as "quiet" and there is little detail. The CWGC database tells us there were 655 Canadians lost in Belgium during that period, which provides useful information on their location and dates. I will have to dig into the war diaries!

[JeffMcN]

7 hours ago, laughton said:

 

The Official Canadian History (Nicholson) makes little mention of the Canadians around Messines in 1915, other than for the trench raids at La Petite Douve in November 1915 (Chapter 4 Page 122).

 

There are references to the tunnellers in 1916. This one in particular is a good read:

 

Canadian Military History Volume 27 | Issue 2 Article 16 11-12-2018 - Brian Pascas
Clay-kickers of Flanders Fields: Canadian Tunnellers at Messines Ridge 1916-1917

 

My brain "clicked in" and I went back to what was the first (and only) volume of the Canadian History by Duguid (August 1914- September 1915) and there at the end of the book is Chapter XX "Ploegsteert and Hill 63 - 26 June - 13 September 1915". There was a 4,000 yard front but it was described as "quiet" and there is little detail. The CWGC database tells us there were 655 Canadians lost in Belgium during that period, which provides useful information on their location and dates. I will have to dig into the war diaries!

(Nicholson, p.108) - and theoretically washed down to the Germans!   

 

Actually, there is also some very interesting material in the UK National Archives WO 95/336/6 and /7  (start of 1917 - ) Army Troops. 3 Canadian Tunnelling Company: 1917 April - 1917 September. Including a Canadian deserter!! These guys were digging some of the Messines mines, but also dugouts and strongpoints, and repairing roads in preparation and during the Battle of Messines 1917.

[JeffMcN]

@Jacksdad  Hi Roger

apropos your offer above:

"I have copied all these POW statements if there are particular ones you are interested in.

Nga Mihi"

Would it be possible to have a look at some of the 'interesting' ones for Meteren? I would like some statements to add 'colour' to a short narrative on this action.

 

I have been off-air on this site for a while. Covid and job... but now resuming normal activity!

Otherwise I will try and find time next time I am in Wellington

Cheers

Jeff