Messines Ridge British Cemetery: Case #1 - Unknown New Zealand Officer

[JeffMcN]

On 23/01/2020 at 20:28, jacksdad said:

 

Just for completeness regarding McGregor and the NZ Entrenching Battalions - Corps units of XXII Corps:

"the 2nd New Zealand Entrenching Battalion became deeply involved in certain of its stages. This formation was comprised of reinforcements for Otago and Canterbury Regiments, and was established, along with the 1st and 3rd Entrenching Battalions, under the New Zealand Divisional Wing, which in turn was incorporated in the organisation of the 2nd Army under the name of the 2nd Army Entrenching Group. In the two Otago Companies of the 2nd Entrenching Battalion were men who had at one time or another been active members of either the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Battalions of the Otago Regiment in the Field...

The troops of the 2nd Entrenching Battalion established to the right of Meteren withstood the attack at that point and inflicted severe losses on the enemy; but the collapse of the line to the left and the fall of Meteren ultimately forced a withdrawal. Subsequent to the enemy's occupation of Meteren, half the strength of the 1st Company of Otago, which linked up with Canterbury on the right of the line, was forced to withdraw to new positions in rear of the village. From this point Lieut. J. R. Leys (commanding the 1st Company of Otago) and 2nd-Lieut. J. McGregor (platoon commander) moved out with a small party with the object of destroying an enemy machine gun post a short distance to their front. The position proved to be too strongly held, and although the party succeeded in reaching its objective and made a gallant attempt to overwhelm it, the enterprise was unsuccessful, 2nd-Lieut. McGregor was killed, and Lieut. Leys mortally wounded at the moment of shooting down one of the crew of the gun."

 - Byrne, A. E. (1921). Official history of the Otago Regiment, N.Z.E.F. in the Great War, 1914-1918 (2nd ed.). N.Z.

 

It crosses my mind that the NZ cyclists and Otago Mounted Rifles, entrenching battalions, and NZFA in the Battle of the Lys have been completely forgotten and that there is an interesting story to be told.  Corps troops have been rather overlooked, it seems.

Edited 24 January , 2020 by JeffMcN

[laughton]

If we can come back to Bill's @WhiteStarLine maps for a second look, as they have me confused as to the locations. That was leading me to believe that if Lieutenant Cooper (2nd Auckland) was buried in sector 28.O.33.b 200 yds SW of Despagne Farm, then that does not match the green dots but it does match the yellow dots.

 

On 18/01/2020 at 06:02, WhiteStarLine said:

Every work day I walk past the original wooden sign to Stinking Farm displayed in our foyer, one of the 1st Auckland points (yellow circles).  The red dots are casualties mentioned by Richard and the green dots 2nd Auckland.  The pins are for features such Fanny's Farm and Despagnes Farm (just out of picture NE of Fanny's Farm.  The New Zealanders covered a lot of ground.

 

 

Stinking Farm is at 28.U.7a.5.7 which is shown on the map as a green dot but the text above says that is a yellow circle.

 

I think it is time that I called on @JeffMcN to see if we can get precise locations for the units. In most of the cases of the fallen Officers we are dealing with the battle on 7 June 1917 but there are a few that fell on the 8th and 9th to we must address those comments about the men being moved around to try and avoid the artillery fire.

On 19/01/2020 at 18:08, JeffMcN said:

I will address your coloured dots soon. But in the meantime, hope this helps a little.

 

It all comes down to whether there is enough evidence to place Second Lieutenant John Wesley Cobb, who was reported "buried by his colleagues", as the only missing officer that was in the correct area where the remains were recovered. What is unique to this case is that he is the ONLY OFFICER of 1st/Auckland on the list.

 

I am working on pinning down the location of the rest of the officers on the list. It is important to check BOTH SETS of Officer Files as the details differ between different sets (WW1 8/1601 - Army AND/OR WW1 8/1601 - Army [Original Paper Personnel File]). This is what I have to date: (now complete)

 

Updated Information (a number of records have burial information -surname linked - we should look for all these men)

• Captain Foster burial located given in file as 28.U.3.b.20.70. buried by 16th Coy 1st Auckland
• no details in the record about the burial of:
  • Captain MacFarlane
  • Lieutenant Anderson
  • 2nd Lieutenant Cobb - his details are in the family history that he was buried by his colleagues (see post #7)
• 2nd Lieutenant Cooper appears to be "Allan" not "Allen" as on CWGC, buried 200 yards SSW of Despagne Farm 28.O.33.b.3.5
• 2nd Lieutenant Palmer is reported to have died of wounds on 9 June 1917 not as CWGC reports as 7 June 1917 (pg 13 of 106)
• Lieutenant Pilling (image 1) is reported to have been buried in "N.Z. Cemetery - just west of Messines"
  • not Middle Farm Cemetery as those four (4) unknowns were from the New Zealand Rifle Brigade COG-BR 2015121
  • will need to find all those that came from Bell Farm Cemetery 28.031.c.3.9 as that is west of Messines COG-BR 2015117
• Lieutenant Thompson was reported to have died of wounds (image 1) (image 25)
• Second Lieutenant Baxter believed to be a POW (image 1) (image 16) at the time of his death
• Second Lieutenant Collins was actually KIA on 7 June 1917 (not 9th as on CWG - image 2 & image 3)
  • be careful searching his records, there are others with the same name mixed together
• 2nd Lt. Hall record (page 10) shows buried 28.O.33.c.75.80 outside Blauwen Molen outside 2nd ** H.Q.s
• Second Lieutenant McGregor was KIA at Metern, France in April 1918 while attached to the 2nd Entrenching Battalion
  • see Micks post that follows, reported grave site
• Second Lieutenant Tennent, possibly wounded and POW, was out of the area of Messines at the time of his death
  • his records place him in the area of Warneton 28.U.12
  • the battalion history places them a bit further south at the Sugar Refinery 28.U.17
  • either way, he is out of the area

 

I will update this list further tomorrow morning as I work through the records (done to PALMER)

 

surname	death	Rank when KIA	regiment	unit	General location at the time	Projected Coordinates
FOSTER	8/6/1917	Captain	Auckland	2nd Bn. Reported OC 2/15th	killed with Colonel Allen pg 150 battalion HQ	buried at 28.U.3.b.2.7
MacFARLANE	7/6/1917	Captain	NZRB	3rd Bn. 3rd reported "C" Coy	southern sector	28.U.3 to 28.U.9
ANDERSON	7/6/1917	Lieutenant	Canterbury	2nd Bn.	southern boundary area	28.U.9 to 28.U.11
COBB	7/6/1917	2nd Lieutenant	Auckland	1st Bn., 15th Coy.	heading into correct area, buried by colleagues	28.U.3.d.3.9 and 28.U.5.b.3.2
COOPER	7/6/1917	2nd Lieutenant	Auckland	6th (Hauraki) Coy. 2nd Bn.	north sector, burial reported 200 yd SW Despagne	28.O.33.b
PALMER	7/6/1917	Lieutenant	Canterbury	2nd Bn	southern boundary area	28.U.9 to 28.U.11
PILLING	7/6/1917	Lieutenant	Otago	1st Bn.	buried where he fell in early stage west of Messines	28.U.1.b.9.8
THOMPSON	7/6/1917	Lieutenant	Canterbury	12th (Nelson) Coy. 2nd Bn.	DOW, southern boundary area	28.U.9 to 28.U.11
BAXTER	30/07/1917	2nd Lieutenant	Auckland	2nd Bn.	pg 160 Catacombs Hill 63, died as POW	28.T.18 - 28.U.13
COLLINS	9/6/1917	2nd Lieutenant	NZRB	4th Bn. 3rd	pg 204 capture southern half of Messines	28.U.3 to 28.U.9
HALL	9/6/1917	2nd Lieutenant	Auckland	2nd Bn.	outside Blauwen Molen	28.O.33.c.75.80
McGREGOR	16/04/1918	2nd Lieutenant	Otago	attd 2nd Entrenching Bn	KIA Meteren - see "micks" post below	27.X.15
TENNENT	26/06/1917	2nd Lieutenant	NZRB	2nd Bn. 3rd	pg 219 Sugar Refinery La Basse Ville	28.U.17.c-d

 

Follow-up notes:

• In the event that it becomes important later, the newspaper article in the family blog refers to Jack Cobb being in the 15th Company
• there are additional leads in the service records, such as image 22 of 31 of Cobb's file, where item #61 tells us Lieutenant Foster was an Acting Captain and that Lieutenants Coates and McCormick died of wounds
• see post #37 below, my coordinates for Cobb above are incorrect and should show as 28.U.3.d.3.9 and 28.U.3.b.3.2
• the note that Jack Cobb was buried by his colleagues came from the family blog - I will look for the original source of that information
  • found it! The family blog had said "The following comprehensive summary of Jack's service during World War 1 was printed in the Manawatu Standard, 30 August 1917." The images were gone but fortunately the link still worked. Apparently he was killed by a shell after reaching the objective and buried by his own men, apparently at the objective as they were still under fire during the service.
  • 

Edited 26 January , 2020 by laughton
edited table size; updating burial records as found

[micks]

You can discount 2nd Lieutenant McGregor as he appears to be buried in grave V.J.834 at Meteren Military Cemetery.

 

Also take into consideration that the JCCC will expect you to widen your report to exclude all the other New Zealand officers that were killed on the western front.

[WhiteStarLine]

Richard, I apologise for mis-labelling my previous post and hopefully this should make it a bit clearer.  The KML export can be loaded into Google Maps or Google Earth.

tmapper_NZ_Messines_JUL_1917.kml tmapper_25_01_2020.csv

[laughton]

8 hours ago, micks said:

You can discount 2nd Lieutenant McGregor as he appears to be buried in grave V.J.834 at Meteren Military Cemetery.

 

Also take into consideration that the JCCC will expect you to widen your report to exclude all the other New Zealand officers that were killed on the western front.

1. Thanks, I was not aware that someone had already reported on the case of McGregor at Meteren, but I agree. He is not on the April 2019 CWGC list and for some reason they stopped providing updates of the list (at least to me). I have asked several times since April.
   • GRRF 2027458
   • COG-BR 2303363
   • McGregor's CWGC Record was updated this week to include "attd. 2nd New Zealand Entrenching Battalion, N.Z.E.F."
      
2. Since we went through the 2 years of research on the McDonald & Wylie case, we appear to have convinced the CWGC to use some reason and not to have to include men lost in another country. As such, we would only deal with Belgium and any cross linkage into Flanders, as is the case with the Messines Memorial. To date I have included ALL OFFICERS on the Messines memorial. For those on the Tyne Cot Memorial, the closest I found of a NZ Officer to the site of the remains was 11,000 yards (east of Hooge 28.J.14). Most of the others were even further away in 28.D. The same general reasoning applies to the one (1) Lieutenant and four (4) Second Lieutenants on the Buttes memorial from December 1917. The outlier was Second Lieutenant Sydney Joseph Wyatt from 18 March 1918, as I presumed he was killed in the area where the Corps Reserve was working and training around Ypres but his record says KIA in France. He had only been there a few days.

Gone back to update the table of officers in the posts above.

[laughton]

In order to cover all basis, I must also include any Officers that had an affiliation with New Zealand and are named on the Arras Flying Services Memorial. Only Coates and Masters are listed as New Zealand, the other four (4) have linkage to New Zealand and were manually added to the list: (Fitzherbert is already the subject of an UNKNOWN REPORT)

 

surname	forename	death	rank	regiment	secondary_regiment
COATES	WILLIAM HENRY	22/07/1917	Lieutenant	Royal Flying Corps	Auckland Mounted Rifles, N.Z.E.F.
MASTERS	GEORGE	3/4/1917	Second Lieutenant	Royal Flying Corps	New Zealand Pioneer Battalion
COURTNEY	JOHN CLASSON	7/4/1918	Lieutenant	4th Australian Flying Corps
CULLING	THOMAS GREY	8/6/1917	Flight Lieutenant	1 Sqd Royal Naval Air Service
FITZHERBERT	WYNDHAM WATERHOUSE	7/7/1917	Captain	55th Sqd Royal Flying Corps	13th Royal Sussex
WHITESIDE	REGINALD CUTHBERT	20/12/1916	Sub-Lieutenant	18th Sqd Royal Flying Corps	Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve

 

Excluded:

 

• Coates: pg 103 A9412 DH5 32 Sqn RFC brought down by AA east of Hooge, Belgium 28.I.18
  • too far to the northeast to be considered
• Masters: pg 75 A808 FE2b 11 Sqn RFC brought down by AA into River Scarpe, France 51b,H,27.d
  • out of country
• Courtney: pg 163 B5635 Sopwith Camel 4 Sqn AFC brought down by AA near Bethune, France
  • out of country
• Whiteside: pg 63 A5446 FE2b 18 Sqn RFC during combat at Noreuil, France 57c.C.10

 

Always Possible:

• Culling: pg 96 N5491 Sopwith Triplane 1 (Naval) Sqn shot down north of Warneton, Belgium 28.U.12
  • clearly in the area of 28.U.4, which is northwest of Warneton
• Fitzherbert: pg 100 A7493 DH4 55 Sqn RFC shot down southwest of Warneton Belgium 28.U.12
  • in the area
  • subject of a report submitted to the CWGC - Messines Ridge British Cemetery 4.E.38 & 39
  • proposed recovered at 28.U.30.c.1.8

Edited 25 January , 2020 by laughton
added death details

[JeffMcN]

Hello. I am sorry, but I have rather lost the plot here! I am completely confused regarding WhiteLine's map. Above( this page) you say Yellow = 1st Auckland; and 2nd Auckland = Green.

The two eastern yellow dots are too far north for 1st Auckland. They would match 2nd Auckland.  Don't know about the green and yellow dots west of Steenebeek stream - presumably they got hit coming up into position. as for the green dot out on the Warneton Line, I am stumped. That was not NZ action.

My maps on the previous page show where the different battalions' objectives, which should give you an idea where the different officers were most likely to be.

[JeffMcN]

Comments on WhiteLine's revised map.  I have labelled each dot and provided commentary:

Who was where: units as aty 7 June 1917:

A:  1^st Otago captured it; also 2^nd Auckland assembled here for Black Dotted Line advance.  Fits with Pilling

B:  2^nd Auckland on Black Dotted Line: 6th (Hauraki) objective.  Fits with Cooper

C:  1^st Wellington Black Line. 7^th Coy to take Blauwen Molen, 17^th Coy beyond to east.  Consistent with Hall

D:  1^st Auckland: 3^rd Coy objective.  Consistent with Foster

E:  1^st Auckland:  3^rd Coy.  (very close to division boundary)

F:   !!!! If he was a NZer he deserved to be shot as he would have been way out of position! The New Zealanders did not go past the Black Dotted Line except for some patrols that went out to Owl Trench, which is north of the road. This is on the Green Line - Australian 37^th Battalion (3rd Aus. Div.) objective for the afternoon 3:10 pm attack. The afternoon attack was a total mess around here. And quite likely that some of 47^th Battalion (4th Aus. Div.) who were supposed to be on the other side of the road wandered down here.  You need to see Bean’s Official Australian History for this. Most officers were lost, so you have several to choose from, if you are trying to identify someone here.

G:  This is about 14^th June and by 25^th Division, I think. NZers were not around here, but south of the Douve.

 

Does this help any? If you give me precise instructions, I might better be able to assist. Part of my problem is that not having followed your exercise from the start, I find it a bit difficult to grasp where you are at. Sorry!

Jeff

[WhiteStarLine]

Thanks Jeff, in post #29 I apologised for mis-labelling and putting you and Richard in some considerable confusion...

[JeffMcN]

See: Bean, C. E. W. (1982 [1943]). The Australian Imperial Force in France, 1917 (Vol. IV). St. Lucia, Qld.: University of Queensland Press in association with the Australian War Memorial.

Available online:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/RCDIG1069753/

 

2 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Thanks Jeff, in post #29 I apologised for mis-labelling and putting you and Richard in some considerable confusion...

No worries!  It forced me to check my draft maps - and recheck the text, which was useful, if not quite what I had intended for a Sunday afternoon!

 

[micks]

Richard

 

I passed on the information regarding 2nd Lieutenant McGregor to a Kiwi a few years. As yet he hasn't done anything with it. So if anybody is interested then have a look at it.

 

The problem with excepting the names on memorials is that there are errors on almost all of them. Le Touret and Menin Gate are particularly bad due to the fragmented movement north of Smith-Dorrien's II Corps in late October and early November 1914.There are also many errors on the Arras and Pozieres Memorials from March 1918. In addition there are errors on the CWGC website with servicemen being attached to other battalions and regiments. Sometimes this only comes to light when you are able to track down their service records.  

 

From my own dealings with both the CWGC and the JCCC ( eight cases having gone through to rededication and another five ear marked for this year.) I can inform you that just because David excepts a case doesn't mean that the women at the MoD will also approve it. In addition to my successes I have also had two reports rejected by the JCCC having been previously approved by the CWGC. 

[laughton]

8 hours ago, JeffMcN said:

The New Zealanders did not go past the Black Dotted Line except for some patrols that went out to Owl Trench, which is north of the road. This is on the Green Line - Australian 37^th Battalion (3rd Aus. Div.) objective for the afternoon 3:10 pm attack.

 

Interesting doing this work on the Internet where it is 1 am Monday morning in New Zealand and still 7am Sunday morning here in Canada. JeffMcN has finished his Sunday afternoon and I still have 6 hours to get ready for our Sunday afternoon here in Canada! Until then, the Canadian struggles on to learn more about the New Zealanders in the Great War

 

So how did I come up with what must be incorrect information that Cobb of 1st Auckland may have got into the area described as "28.U.3.d.3.9 and 28.U.5.b.3.2"?

 

On page 8 of 64 in the war diary they describe the task of the 1st Brigade:

 

 

Granted, these are the planned tasks and not necessarily what happened, but it appears they were to go out as far as the Green Line with Patrols. If they are going to capture guns on their frontage, then they must have planned on going to some depth?

 

page 9 of 64

 

Here is where I went wrong in my previous post and tables, when I was reading the negative version of the war diary, for it is now clear that the trench map coordinates should have been reported as 28.U.3.d.3.9 and 28.U.3.b.3.2. I had taken the second coordinate as a "5" previously - wrong! That means point "G" on the map was wrong due to my error.

 

pag 10 of 64

 

In the Second Phase, the 1st Auckland moved a bit closer to the area where the remains were recovered, with the establishment of No. 1 Post. In the Third Phase, it is reported that they pushed out further patrols to reconnoitre the Green Line and to capture guns. It would appear at this time they crossed Oxygen Trench ≈28.O.34.c.3.4 and out as far as Owl Trench, but to the NORTH of Oxygen Trench. It appears Owl Trench runs from the junction with Uncanny Trench in the southwest ≈28.U4.a.35.55 to at least ≈28.O.34.c.9.5 before it breaks. This is still short of the line formed by Uncanny Support and Owl Support, which runs from ≈28.U.4.a.7.3 to ≈28.O.34.b.6.7. If 1st Auckland had gone that far, then the remains could have been those of Lieutenant Cobb.

 

page 11 of 64

 

The war diary on page 23 of 64 lists Second Lieutenant J. W. Cobb as KIA 7/6/17 as a Platoon Commander.

 

There was a map in the war diary on page 27 of 64. It would show the remains at the absolute boundary, if I have interpreted it correctly. You can see the purple lines that intersect with the most southern of the blue lines (ink colour on map), just above the number "4", the location where the remains were recovered.

 

[JeffMcN]

Ist Auckland and 1st Wellington stopped on the Black Line. Ist Auckland established one post on the Black Dotted Line, but that was where the Black and Black-Dotted Lines join. The strongpoints were put out and held by 2nd Auckland. See SITREP map here.  You will also see the Green Lines marked.  Patrols were sent out by 2nd Auckland in the morning, north of Oxygen and got close to the German positions. The Green Line/Oosttaverne Line was only lightly held in the morning, but not empty (3rd Australian Division souvenir hunters south of the Douve were 'prospecting' in parts of the Green Line trenches at this time!)

 

The only other New Zealand troops to go anywhere near the Green Lines were the Otago Mounted Rifles in the late afternoon (they were part of the corps cavalry, together with 2 squadrons of the 4th Australian Light Horse).

 

Note that there were New Zealanders serving in the AIF who fought as part  of 4th Australian Division in the afternoon advance on the Green Line.

[JeffMcN]

Note the map above shows the five 2nd Auckland strongposts, but not the 1st Auckland one See the pencil dash/short line at 3.d.6.6.  I would guess that this shows the 2nd Auckland limit southwards on the Black Dotted Line. Further down would be covered by 1st Auckland.

Edited 27 January , 2020 by JeffMcN

[JeffMcN]

To help, here are the NZ Divisions objectives, from west to east: Blue Line, Brown Line (western edge of Messines), Yellow Line, Black Line, Black Dotted Line.  25th Division to the NZers left, 3rd Australian Division to their right.

 

To clarify: where were the remains found that you are trying to identify?

[laughton]

17 hours ago, JeffMcN said:

To clarify: where were the remains found that you are trying to identify?

 

The remains were recovered from 28.U.4.a.8.3 as shown below. That places them just to the rear (west) of Uncanny Support Trench, approximately 100 yards west of the Green Line and 400 yards south of Huns Walk. He is listed on COG-BR 2015103.

 

I have gone back through the COG-BR documents to see what others were recovered in the area. That list follows the map. We also have to keep in mind that the trench map references for the burial versus recovery of remains is not always exact. In another case yesterday (this one on GWF) we have absolute proof that the variation was 600 yards. If you recall the Kipling case, the GRU had the map references off by a complete sector (G versus H).

 

 

Here are some others that were recovered into the Messines Ridge British Cemetery:

• COG-BR 2015094: Lance Corporal Sutton, 1st Wellington 28.U.4.c.5.4
  • that places him at or east of the Green Line, another member of the 1st Brigade that should not be that far east?
• COG-BR 2015100: a number of Unknown Australian Soldiers 28.U.4.a.5.3
• COG-BR 2015107: Unknown New Zealand Auckland Regiment 28.U.4.a.6.2
• COG-BR 2015121: four identified men of the 41st Bn. Australian 28.U.4.d.6.9,
  • followed by 2 more pages at the same location (probably Queensland Cemetery - see this post)

There are also many in the same area marked as "U.B.S." (Unknown British Soldier), which only means they were Commonwealth Soldiers, not necessarily British.

 

I had not previously looked at whether the Wellington Battalions should have been in the same general area where the remains were found, as there were no missing Officers. Looking back at their history, we find that Lieutenant G. H. Fell and Second Lieutenant F. Howard were killed early in the battle as they left Hanbury Support Trench 28.U.1.c-d. They were concentrated into Lindonhoek from what may have been a battlefield cemetery at 28.U.1.c.3.8. I have not collected all the documents from that cemetery, but will get that done, as there may be related cases.

 

The Wellington history (page break 164) says the first brigade had attacked and captured the Black Line by 5:20am, 1st Auckland on the right and 1st Wellington on the left. If they are moving east, that should put the 1st Wellington north of 1st Auckland? They refer to the Auckland's moving a short distance further to establish the 5 strong points in front of the trenches, for the Australian jumping-off points. That, I presume, is the farthest east anyone should be recovered. After that the Australians leapfrogged the New Zealanders to capture the Green Line (Oostaverne Line). How did Lance Corporal Sutton end up at 28.U.4.c.5.4?

 

Update:

 

I checked the Wulverghem-Lindenhoek Road Military Cemetery (see here) and there were some other odd burial locations for the New Zealanders:

• COG-BR 1837979: two identified men of 2nd Auckland at 28.U.6.a.5.8, which is 2,000 yards further east than the unknown remains
  • both reported KIA on 7 June 1917 (Davidson & Gebbie)
  • the U.6.a.5.8 might be an error, as following those two are four more at U.7.a.5.8 but they are all N.Z.R.B. - just coincidence?
  • Auckland and Cornwall cemeteries were in sector U.7.a prior to concentration into Wulverghem

If we look closely what was written by the "brother officer" and compare that to what is in the war diary, it seems clear to me that @JeffMcN is absolutely correct that they were not out where the remains were recovered. This comes from two points that seem to be the same location:
 

1. The "brother officer" said that Jack was "killed by a shell after he had gained his objective". We also know from the newspaper article in the family blog refers to Jack Cobb being in the 15th Company, which may help tie down the exact location. If we take that he was at the junction of the Black Line where it intersects with the start of the Black Dotted Line, then he would be a about 28.U.3.b.4.3.
    
2. The war diary says they captured the second field gun at 28.U.3.b.3.2, which is more or less the same location. If the GRU did make an error when they recorded the location where the remains were recovered, which must be the case if they were never at that location, then they recovered the remains at 28.U.3.b.4.3 at the line, exactly 750 yards west of where the GRU reported. That would be a simple mistake to make, whether as a marking on a map in the field or in taking notes of the recovery location. I don't honestly know how they ever got a precise as they did when they were standing in the middle of an open area with map in hand. They sure didn't have GPS and I doubt they surveyed the location - good question, how did they decide on the location to record?

Edited 28 January , 2020 by laughton
added update

[JeffMcN]

I have mapped most of the locations.

• Sutton (17 Coy 1st Wgtn) is well out of position. He was killed on 8 June, but there was no movement that day by Wellingtons that day, except to be relieved in the evening and to move back to the Yellow Line.  Why he is located so far south of his objective is beyond me.
• The unknown Aucklander is also well out of position. He at least is in advance of his position. He is on the road, however, and also very close to the Nesselhof German battalion headquarters (not marked, U.4.d.1.2.)   Wild conjecture: captured and being taken back but killed en route?! But no mention in either sides' documents of NZ prisoners.
• Your NZ remains are also well out of position, especially as he is on the Green Line, not even the Green Chain Line!
• note 15th Coy 1st Auckland objective was just below Huns Walk (Green in map)

 

[JeffMcN]

The 3rd Australian Division's 41st Battalion had me intrigued: they were not involved in the Battle of Messines. Their war diary is not complete for end of June, However, they did take over the new line (taken 14 June) in the beginning of July, between U.11.b.30.30 to U.5.b.20.50.  This would explain the four sets of remains at 28.U.4.d.6.9. - they would date from July 1917.

 

[JeffMcN]

"The Wellington history (page break 164) says the first brigade had attacked and captured the Black Line by 5:20am, 1st Auckland on the right and 1st Wellington on the left. If they are moving east, that should put the 1st Wellington north of 1st Auckland? They refer to the Auckland's moving a short distance further to establish the 5 strong points in front of the trenches, for the Australian jumping-off points. That, I presume, is the farthest east anyone should be recovered. After that the Australians leapfrogged the New Zealanders to capture the Green Line (Oostaverne Line). "

 

Correct.

More accurately:

That, I presume, is the farthest east anyone NZer should be recovered.        

[smclaren]

This has been a great thread to read if you are interested in the NZ experience at Messines (which I am). Well done everyone.

 

Here is my VERY small side contribution to the discussion ... details of the attack on Messines from my grandfathers diaries (Cpl George McLaren - 3rd Auckland,1st Auckland Infantry Battalion - Bombing Section). 

 

I've provided some of the build up to the battle when they were in Vauxhall Camp near Bailleul ... then moved to Setques near Saint-Omer (which shows them ramping up the Battalion/Brigade sized training for the upcoming "stunt"), their time in the battle on the Black Line ... and then marching back to Hill 63 (Kortypyp Camp) post battle. I've also included one last entry about 1 week after their return to Hill 63, as its a poignant entry showing the cost of the Messines battle to my grandfather.

 

I hope it helps with some small details of the environment in Messines during the battle (eg he mention's the Aussies in and out of Owl Trench). I have a few photo's of George and his mates from this time, prior to the battle (they were experienced soldiers and knew what was coming their way so took some snaps) ... also a photo of the 3rd Company in full dress (still trying to work out if it's before or after Messines ... but defiantly in June 1917). 

 

All the best ... 

 

Steve

 

10/5/17 Thursday    Terrible hot weather. Went to Bailleul last night again. Got our photos taken. Hawkins, Wells, Stewart, Rowe & I. Leaving this camp for the first stage of our journey to St Omer
11/5/17 Friday    Reached our destination yesterday about 2pm. Billeted in shed & etc. Pradelle.  Shifted today a little further back the road.
12/5/17 Saturday    Drill all day. Terrible hot again. Had a bath in a hole in the paddock here. 
13/5/17 Sunday    Church parade today. Hot as hell. Had a shower of rain and the evening is just lovely and the country here is beautiful. All the grass & crops & orchards are looking at its best. The thrushes are singing goodoh and puts me in mind of old NZ. 
14/5/17 Monday    Drill all morning. Bomb drill & throwing afternoon. 
15/5/17 Tuesday    Same as yesterday. Dull today. Shooting at the Butts before noon. 
16/5/17 Wednesday    Drill in morning. Bayonet fighting by Tommy instructor. Went to show of Transport & Army Service horses & etc afternoon. Dismissed when we got there. Writing to Doll.
17/5/17 Thursday    Raining a little today. Had a sort of a sketch on how to capture houses with machine gun in it. Done very little afternoon.
18/5/17 Friday    Left these billets this morning & entrained at Bailleul for St Omer. Got here about 5pm & marched about 5 miles to a little village called Setques & in billets here. 
19/5/17 Saturday    Company Orderly Sargent today. All the Company got to Butts shooting. Bon for me, Spelloh. Writing to Mag & George Sentch. 6.30pm got 2 letters, 1 Doll & 1 Annie. Decent, eh what . 
20/5/17 Sunday    Drill all day again. Terrible hot too. Done some lecturing on bombs to sections. 
21/5/17 Monday    Same as yesterday only no bomb practice. 
22/5/17 Tuesday    Went to St Omer for a bath & had two hours off in the town. A very nice place too. Harry, Frank, Blackie & I got our photo taken.

23/5/17 Wednesday    Training all day over the side of a hill. Extended Order. Terrible hot.
24/5/17 Thursday    Went up for a walk with Frank & Harry last night into a lovely bush near here and it was just glorious & put me in mind of old N.Z.  Same drill today as yesterday.
25/5/17 Friday    Battalion in attack today, terrible hot too. An hours bombing afternoon. 
26/5/17 Saturday    Digging training trenches all day. Got letters from Mrs Knight & NZ. XXXX from Ted Nelson. BOS tonight.
27/5/17 Sunday    Brigade in attack all day, a horrible mess made of it too. Got 2 Ak weeklies from N.Z. Writing to Tina and sending two of the photos. 
28/5/17 Monday    Practicing Battalion in attack today. Sending Mrs Sentch one of the photos in a short letter, also a letter to Mrs Night.
29/5/17 Tuesday    Brigade stunt, on attack today. A change in the weather, not so warm. Ak weekly from N Pile.
30/5/17 Wednesday    Battalion in attack today. Cool day. Godley had a look at us.
31/5/17 Thursday    Left here today. Back on our way for the advance. Done about 13 miles & billeted in farm sheds & etc at Ebblinghem. 
1/6/17 Friday    Left again today about 10am. The whole Brigade march past Brigadier Brown. Marched about 11 miles & billeted in farms again. Most of us sleep in the open, bosker only for the mosquitos. 
2/6/17 Saturday    Slept in open last night again. Tod Sloan came back among Reinf tonight. Frank went ot Blighty on leave. 
3/6/17 Sunday    Marched to Ploegsteert Wood this morning, living in tents. Jim Neil is here in the big Ambulance dug out. Our artillery is terrible busy, like the Somme. At 1pm our artillery opened up and the xxxx is something terrible. Old Fritz is getting particular hell. We had to go out and see a map of Messines and got a pretty bad run. Fritz was strafing a few of our fellows including Lieut Smith. 
4/6/17 Monday    Very heavy shelling all last night & tear shells & gas alarms & etc. A few of our small arms dumps went up. Fritz is shelling a good deal today but nothing compared with what he is getting.
5/6/17 Tuesday    On patrol last night over Hill 63. Went up today and cleaned our assembly trench out and then went back into huts behind Ploegsteert about 1 ½ miles. Got 5 letters, Tina 1, Annie 1, G Hislop 1, N Pile 1 and Mrs Sanders one & a new handkerchief. Goodoh. 
6/6/17 Wednesday    Messing around all day getting ready for our attack. Letter from Annie. This is the eve of battle and everything is busy. We are all ready to meet the Hun. Left tonight for our assembly trench about 12.20pm and got a rough spin going up under tear shells & other shells & had to put on our helmets. Got there about 1.30am. 
7/6/17 Thursday    Attacked at 3.10am and had a pretty easy spin. Lost one of my mates, Sgt H Rowe, shot in the head. Dug in on Black Line and having a dam rough time. Aussies went through & took Owl Trench but got shelled out by our own artillery and lost heavy from machine guns. Huns shelled us heavy at night but no counter attack. Got buried again in trench and all the stuff in my haversack blown up, also my rifle broken. 
8/6/17 Friday    Aussies went over and took that trench again at 9.30am. At 11am, the Hun is shelling us fiercely with very big shells. No bon for the soldier. 2.30pm, we are being constantly shelled. 10pm, Fritz intended counter attacking but was seen massing and our artillery wiped them out. He bombarded our trenches almost continually for 6 hrs.
9/6/17 Saturday    A lot quieter today. We can see great lots of Huns away on our right running about behind their lines. Changing over, I think. 
10/6/17 Sunday    Relieved last night by the Aussies & marched right back to Kortypyp Camp and reached there about 4 in the morning. A sorry mob we were too. 2pm, had a good sleep and lay about all day. Letter from Annie & Ted Nelson & C Hinton.

 

18/6/17 Monday    Some of us Sgts & Lieut Walker came up to the subsidiary where 2nd Otago are. We relieve them tonight. Just saw a plane come down just near us. Don't know whether it was “there’s or ours”. Terrible hot today. Heard that poor little Redge Welham died of wounds. He was one of my bombing section. We thought we saved him by carrying him out on an oilsheet tied to rifles, there was no stretches. 

Edited 29 January , 2020 by smclaren

[laughton]

 JeffMcN:

 

Checking on a location, if you can help me out, as this may help determine if the trench map coordinates are all way out of whack. If that is the case, then I take this as a great learning experience and acknowledge that there is not going to be an answer to this case.

 

Private Henry Colgan #32941 of the 3rd Battalion 3rd New Zealand Rifle Brigade was reported recovered at 28.U.2.a.9.2 (COG-BR 2015107). The report in his Army File says that "Rifleman Colgan went into action with the Lewis Gun Section of No. 7 Platoon. After leaving the assembly trenches he was not seen, no trace has ever been found of him".

 

My understanding, from the NZRB history (page break 202) was that they were in the vicinity of La Petite Douve Farm 28.U.8.a.9.5 and moving eastward toward Ulster Reserve Trench 28.U.9.d. If that was the location, how could he have ended up some distance north in 28.U.2.a? I would agree that too is part of the Blue Line, but would that not have been too far north for the NZRB to have been located at the start?

 

Richard

 

 

[JeffMcN]

7 hours ago, laughton said:

 JeffMcN:

 

Checking on a location, if you can help me out, as this may help determine if the trench map coordinates are all way out of whack. If that is the case, then I take this as a great learning experience and acknowledge that there is not going to be an answer to this case.

 

Private Henry Colgan #32941 of the 3rd Battalion 3rd New Zealand Rifle Brigade was reported recovered at 28.U.2.a.9.2 (COG-BR 2015107). The report in his Army File says that "Rifleman Colgan went into action with the Lewis Gun Section of No. 7 Platoon. After leaving the assembly trenches he was not seen, no trace has ever been found of him".

 

My understanding, from the NZRB history (page break 202) was that they were in the vicinity of La Petite Douve Farm 28.U.8.a.9.5 and moving eastward toward Ulster Reserve Trench 28.U.9.d. If that was the location, how could he have ended up some distance north in 28.U.2.a? I would agree that too is part of the Blue Line, but would that not have been too far north for the NZRB to have been located at the start?

 

Richard

 

 

Hi Richard Colgan is exactly where he should be. Sadly for him. His record shows he was B Coy., 3rd Rifle. B Coy was on the left flank of the Rifle Bde,the road being the boundary (pink line). D and B Coys were to take the first trench line. A And C Coy to take the Brown Line. The map shows their objectives for each 3rd Rifle Btn company. Having taken their objectives D and B Coys were to (and did) move futher up the hill and dig in behind the German trenches, in the expectation that the Germans would shell their old trenches. Which they all did. As you can see from the map Colgan is on the boundary (Blue X). Most (about 3/4) of all NZ casualities occured AFTER the attack, from German shelling. Seemingly Colgan suffered this fate - certainly, his record shows a comrade's evidence in the Court of Enquiry: "After leaving the assembly trench he was not seen  no trace ha ever been found of him", suggesting he was blown up or buried.

 

Richard, you need to look at the maps I posted a couple of days ago that show the positions of the different NZ units on 7 June.  Petite Douve marks the right boundary of the NZ Div attack, but rather than east (and so down the Douve) they went north-east, up the ridge slope. You will see the  divisional boundaries on the first map in red.

 

So the trench map coordinates are right, but your interpretation of the regimental history (never easy, I admit!!!), was a little off-beam!  So don't give up yet!

 

Jeff

[laughton]

Thanks Jeff, but it may be the history that was off NOT ME! Was I led down the wrong trench?

 

It says:

Quote

For the most part, too, their allotted portion of Ulster Reserve was captured more easily than had been expected, but on the left the last stage of the forward movement was checked by machine-guns firing from positions amongst the ruins of the village.

 

Did they confuse ULSTER with ULCER when the wrote the regimental history? That would explain why I could not figure out why they crossed the river - made no sense. Going northeast to Ulcer Reserve makes perfect sense.

 

I have been looking at all your maps in detail and checking them against the details on the UKNA trench maps. Great learning experience, far away from the familiar battlefields of a Canadian.

Edited 29 January , 2020 by laughton
ULCER not ULSTER

[JeffMcN]

17 minutes ago, laughton said:

Thanks Jeff, but it may be the history that was off NOT ME! Was I led down the wrong trench?

 

It says:

 

Did they confuse ULSTER with ULCER when the wrote the regimental history? That would explain why I could not figure out why they crossed the river - made no sense. Going northeast to Ulcer Reserve makes perfect sense.

 

I have been looking at all your maps in detail and checking them against the details on the UKNA trench maps. Great learning experience, far away from the familiar battlefields of a Canadian.

Good spotting! Definitely, a mistake in the history! And you were definitely led down the wrong trench!  Ulster trenches were in 3rd Australian territory, down by Grey Farm. The Rifles were to capture the Ulcer trenches. And thanks for bringing that to my attention. There are several mistakes in them, and also some judicious glossing over of certain actions, too...

 

Actually, as a Canadian, you might want to look into the Messines sector a bit more: the Canadians were there in 1915, hence many of the Canadian names on trenches, and of course Ontario Farm, that got blown up in 7 June 1917. They also mounted one of the very early, if not first, planned raids of the war - on Petite Douve Farm.

As well the 3rd Canadian Tunnelling Company was digging several of the mines for Messines, including digging the  ultimately abandoned Seaforth Farm shaft intended to reclaim the Petite Douve mine. (That mine is still there and loaded, by the way.) And there are some stories about that - but you will have to wait for my book, which is supposed to be published later this year for that!!!!   

Jeff

Edited 29 January , 2020 by JeffMcN

[JeffMcN]

SMclaren Hi Steve

This has been a great thread to read if you are interested in the NZ experience at Messines (which I am). Well done everyone.

Here is my VERY small side contribution to the discussion ... details of the attack on Messines from my grandfathers diaries (Cpl George McLaren - 3rd Auckland,1st Auckland Infantry Battalion - Bombing Section). 

 

Thank you for posting your grandfather's diary excerpts -  a fascinating read. And so much not said! And like many, makes observations about birds, trees etc reminding him of home.

 

Off-topic, but... what did your grandfather write next? NZ Div were now below the Douve in Ploegsteert sector. 2nd Wellington and 1st Auckland went upon 22/23 June to clear the ground between the new (14/15 June) line and the railway line, and enter La Basse-Ville. Not a great success for Auckland, 2nd Wellington entered La Bass-ville but did not stay. 3rd Auckland Coy and others had another more substantial crack on 23/24 June. They had a bit of a tough time of it. I would be keen to know his take on things.

Jeff