Uniform identification please

[mazzie_1]

Hi

 

Does anybody recognise firstly the country this uniform is attached to and secondly the era please (I'm guessing WWI).

 

It's from a family that has both English and American relatives so we're not sure which country this relative was from.

 

Unfortunately someone has drawn lines on it.

 

Thanks.

[Jools mckenna]

Royal Marine Light Infantry (RMLI)

[mazzie_1]

Thanks Jools.

 

WWI?

[Jools mckenna]

I think so (RMLI and RMA merged into Royal Marines in 1923 but kept the RMLI cap badge) but somebody else can tell you for definite.

Edited 26 November , 2019 by Jools mckenna

[FROGSMILE]

He’s RMLI wearing a blue serge frock and trousers, as issued for both, routine duties in barracks, and when part of ships detachments, including deployment ashore.  In particular it was worn during the disastrous attempt to defend Antwerp [erratum - blue uniforms worn at Ostend, drab khaki worn at Antwerp - see succeeding posts].  
Ships companies retained blue, but for extensive land operations such as the Royal Naval Division in France and Flanders it was replaced with standard Army ‘drab’ (brownish khaki) service dress.  In the Summer or when with a warm climate fleet the cap was fitted with a white cover.

 

Edited 27 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[mazzie_1]

Brilliant

 

Thank you.

[cmf]

Hi mazzie_1,

 

I would date the photograph to the period 1906-c.1918.

 

Further to Frogsmile's comments, the five-button dark-blue serge tunic shown here (with single breast-pocket with scalloped flap) was the everyday uniform of N.C.O.s and Men of the R.M.A. and R.M.L.I., and had been worn, with minor variations, since the late 19^th Century. Together with the dark-blue peakless forage cap (introduced 1903) and dark-blue trousers, this uniform was normally worn (in the United Kingdom and temperate climates) by N.C.O.s and Men of the R.M.A. and R.M.L.I., when in the following Orders of Dress:

 

No.3 Dress (Drill Order): all ordinary drills and parades (plus rifle, side arms and equipment, as ordered).
No. 4 Dress (Night Clothing): at night and during wet weather.
No. 10 Dress (Marching Order): for active service, manoeuvres, marches, inspections, embarkations, disembarkations, changes of station, and when on guard duty (plus rifle, side arms, full equipment, and linen leggings).

 

In 1906, the collar insignia worn by the R.M.L.I on the serge tunic was altered, with brass ‘Globe and Laurel’ collar badges (as seen in this photograph) replacing the red embroidered bugle-horns worn hitherto.

 

For No. 2 Dress (Undress Order), N.C.O.s and Men of the R.M.A. and R.M.L.I. wore the ‘frock’, which was a six-button, pocketless, plain dark-blue tunic: this was the normal ‘Walking Out’ uniform, used for when on leave ashore during weekdays, and for other parades and purposes as and when ordered. For No. 1 Dress (Review Order), worn for state ceremonies, special inspections, Guards of Honour, leave ashore on Sundays, the R.M.A. and R.M.L.I. departed from each other, and gave rise to their sobriquets ‘Blue Marines’ and ‘Red Marines’, with the R.M.A. and R.M.L.I. wearing dark-blue and scarlet 'Full Dress' tunics respectively. In No. 1 Dress (Review Order), the Full Dress ‘White Helmet’ (common to both the R.M.A. and R.M.L.I.) was prescribed.

 

Now, the man in your photo is off-duty, wearing the serge tunic as a form of 'Walking Out' uniform (although he's ignoring regulations by not wearing a waistbelt and bayonet frog, nor carrying the short cane which was also regulation!). Although the dark-blue 'frock' was the regulation 'Undress' uniform, and a popular choice for wear when 'Walking Out', its absence here does not date the photo to the war years (indeed, the 'frock' was still issued, and worn, during 1914-18). What does make it likely that this photograph dates, at its latest, to the period of the Great War, is the cut of the dark-blue serge tunic this man has been issued: during the war this pre-war design began to be supplanted by a dark-blue version of the Army's khaki Service Dress, with straight-flapped breast and skirt pockets, and stand-and-fall collar. In the early 1920s, a new version again of the serge tunic was introduced, with stand collar, and two straight-flapped breast pockets. We see whoever has added lines to the photograph has mistakenly drawn a right-hand breast pocket, as we can tell by the scalloped flap of the left breast-pocket.

 

Other information revealed by this Royal Marine Light infantryman's uniform include the fact that he has enjoyed 2 years unblemished service (after 1920, three years service) with no disciplinary entry on his record: this is indicated by his ‘Good Conduct Badge’, i.e. a single-bar chevron, worn in the Army manner on the lower left sleeve. Also, we can give a window in the year when this photograph was taken; as Frogsmile says, this man wears a white cover on his forage cap:  for N.C.O.s and Men of the R.M.A. and R.M.L.I. serving in the United Kingdom, this was worn between 1^st May and 30^th September each year, following the practice of the Royal Navy.

 

For some excellent photos, I would recommend you visit this site: https://rmhistorical.com/photo

 

Chris

 

 

Captions to illustrations:

 

Private, R.M.L.I., No. 10 Dress (Marching Order), circa 1906. He wears the ‘Valise Equipment, Pattern 1888’, and carries the ‘Rifle, Magazine, Lee-Enfield Mark I’.

 

Uniforms, R.M.A . & R.M.L.I., 1914

 

Edited 28 November , 2019 by cmf

[mazzie_1]

Thanks Chris.

 

That's great

[Niko]

12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

In particular it was worn during the disastrous attempt to defend Antwerp.

 

 

In Antwerp, the RM Brigade members were already wearing khaki wool SD uniforms.

 

Only a small part of the RN Brigades non-com cadre was still clad in blue.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, Niko said:

 

In Antwerp, the RM Brigade members were already wearing khaki wool SD uniforms.

 

Only a small part of the RN Brigades non-com cadre was still clad in blue.

 

 

That’s interesting Niko, as quite a few of the photos I’ve seen show the blue, and subsequent artists have used that as a basis for their illustrations.  The enclosed photos seem to show more than just NCO cadres.  Many of the subsequent POWs also seem to show the same uniform.  My understanding is that there was a mixture of both, with some units in drab and some in blue, not least because of the hastiness with which the force was put together, drawing men from the various RM Divisions (Chatham, Devonport and Portsmouth), plus some from other sources.

 

Edited 27 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Niko]

29 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s interesting Niko, as quite a few of the photos I’ve seen show the blue, and subsequent artists have used that as a basis for their illustrations.  The enclosed photos seem to show more than just NCO cadres.  Many of the subsequent POWs also seem to show the same uniform.  My understanding is that there was a mixture of both, with some units in drab and some in blue, not least because of the hastiness with which the force was put together, drawing men from the various RM Divisions (Chatham, Devonport and Portsmouth), plus some from other sources.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The pictures shown here is the Ostend action in August 1914, not Antwerp. As said, the Marine brigade was clad in drab from Dunkirk onwards.

 

[Niko]

This is the, to me, only known picture of a RMLI returning from Antwerp clad in blue:

 

RMLI Blue

 

Here is a link from my page, showing the RMLI retreating from Antwerp, in drab uniforms:

 

RMLI Drab

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, Niko said:

The pictures shown here is the Ostend action in August 1914, not Antwerp. As said, the Marine brigade was clad in drab from Dunkirk onwards.

 

Thank you Niko, it makes sense.  I had not realised previously that the dress at Antwerp had been different to that at Ostend.  It’s very interesting and I appreciate you explaining it all.

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, Niko said:

This is the, to me, only known picture of a RMLI returning from Antwerp clad in blue:

 

RMLI Blue

 

Here is a link from my page, showing the RMLI retreating from Antwerp, in drab uniforms:

 

RMLI Drab

 

 

The RMLI drab photo is well known to me with its evocative view of a wounded RMLI marine being assisted by his comrade.

The RMLI blue photo is a little misleading though, as it shows only one RMLI, a rather old fellow, marching near the front of the column.  The officer and all the remaining men are in fact Royal Naval Ratings.  They are mostly wearing the dark blue RN greatcoat, along with their blue woollen caps, whose appearance can sometimes be mistaken for the Royal Marines ‘Brodrick Cap’ of that period.

Again, thank you Niko for the interesting information.

Edited 27 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Niko]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The RMLI blue photo is a little misleading though, as it shows only one RMLI, a rather old fellow, marching near the front of the column.  The officer and all the remaining men are in fact Royal Naval Ratings.  They are mostly wearing the dark blue RN greatcoat, along with their blue woollen caps, whose appearance can sometimes be mistaken for the Royal Marines ‘Brodrick Cap’ of that period.

 

 

yes, it's one of the older cadre of noncoms, assigned to the naval Brigades. Notice his SMLE also. I have a well known picture in the trenches around Antwerp (Mortsel) where you can only make out one SMLE and a Brodrick hat, most certain from a RMLI noncom, between the Enfield Longs (again from my site, picture bottom):

 

RMLI Cadre

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Niko said:

 

yes, it's one of the older cadre of noncoms, assigned to the naval Brigades. Notice his SMLE also. I have a well known picture in the trenches around Antwerp (Mortsel) where you can only make out one SMLE and a Brodrick hat, most certain from a RMLI noncom, between the Enfield Longs (again from my site, picture bottom):

 

RMLI Cadre

 

 

Thank you.  I had seen both photos before, but not noticed the RMLI NCO amongst the ratings in the trenches. It’s been really interesting to discuss this with you and better understand the dispersal of experienced RMLI NCOs among the RN detachments.

[Niko]

Thanks to you, I just discovered where some pictures were taken!

 

They show the RMLI from the Royal Marine Brigade in the trenches at Lierre (notice drab SD uniform!), they are taken along the Vest (moath), firing in the direction of the Lisperpoort (gate).

Edited 28 November , 2019 by Niko
copyright

[FROGSMILE]

It’s amazing to see that the view has not changed very much at all!

I think that the marines were probably asked to ‘pose’ along the crest of the shallow trench by the photographer, as very few men have their equipment and ready ammunition anywhere near them.

Edited 27 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Niko]

This was the view they had and were firing at, the bridge at Lisp:

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you.  I wonder if they posed for the photograph before the firing or afterwards.  I don't think that they are actually firing in the photo.

Have you seen this rather interesting defence of Winston Churchill’s involvement: https://richardlangworth.com/churchill-myth-and-reality-antwerp ?

Edited 27 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Is it OK to post obviously copyrighted photos? I ask because I don't know.

[GreyC]

Hi Muerrisch,

it depends on whether or not the copyright notice is based on a substantive claim or is just pasted without legitimacy.

Often copyright notices on photos that old lack substance (copyright expires 70 years after photographers death. Copyright can be held by heirs), but not always.

I wouldn´t post without asking because chances are, that the claim is correct. Then the poster has a problem if caught. Often enough the copyright notice is just put across the image without legal jusification as deterrent, though.

Best,

GreyC

Edited 27 November , 2019 by GreyC

[MarkTurner]

43 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Is it OK to post obviously copyrighted photos? I ask because I don't know.

The forum rules have a section on this.

[Niko]

22 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Is it OK to post obviously copyrighted photos? I ask because I don't know.

 

OK, I edited my post, although Alamy is not correct for charging any money for the picture, it has been published many times in different newspapers and other sources, from 1914 on.

 

The other one of the Lisperpoort is my own name (vestingjager), I've put a watermark on it, copyright is long gone, but picture is very rare.

Edited 28 November , 2019 by Niko

[Muerrisch]

Well done sir.