Uniform identification please

[aodhdubh]

On 27/11/2019 at 00:44, cmf said:

In the early 1920s, a new version again of the serge tunic was introduced, with stand collar, and two straight-flapped breast pockets. We see whoever has added lines to the photograph has mistakenly drawn a right-hand breast pocket, as we can tell by the scalloped flap of the left breast-pocket.

Do you know when the pre-1920s version, with a single (left) breast pocket, gained its closure flap?

 

I have a photograph I date between 1897 and 1903 based on an Austrian type cap, showing three pockets - one on each skirt, and one on the left breast - none having a flap. I have seen other photographs showing a similar arrangement....or is this a different article of clothing?

 

The below pages are from the 1908 Orders in Council for the Regulation of the Naval Service.

Edited 4 May , 2022 by aodhdubh

[FROGSMILE]

It is essentially the same garment (in terms of inventory and clothing scales of issue) that was modified several times until it was replaced with a dark blue version of 02 Service Dress during the course of WW1.  I’ve noticed that the earlier pattern frock without a chest pocket flap usually had the old red worsted thread bugle horn as collar badge and five small buttons, whereas the modified pattern with a flap added had the gilding metal collar badge replacement comprising the globe and laurels that we know was issued in 1906, plus five regimental buttons.  It implies that the two changes took place around the same time, although I’ve been unable to find regulations confirming that specifically.  What is clear is that several changes to dress (including, insignia, headgear, tunics and frocks) took place between the year after the end of the 2nd Boer War, 1903, and 1906.  See: https://rmhistorical.com/royalmarine

Edited 4 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve noticed that the older pattern frock without a chest pocket flap was worn invariably had the old red worsted thread bugle horn as collar badge, whereas the modified pattern with a flap added had the gilding metal collar badge replacement comprising the globe and laurels that we know was issued in 1906.  It implies that the two changes took place around the same time, although I’ve been unable to find regulations confirming that specifically.  What is clear is that several changes to dress (including, insignia, headgear, tunics and frocks) took place between the year after the end of the 2nd Boer War, and 1906.

Thanks...I surmised the change in tunic must have been between the Second Boer War and the First World War, but had not been able to narrow the date down from photographs, or find it in writing. I imagine there must be contemporary paperwork describing the changes, but not online, evidently. This is the photograph (from the Royal Naval Dockyard on the island of Ireland in Bermuda) I have been trying to date that I reckon must be between 1897 and 1902/3. There are others where knowing the date of the pocket flap being added would fix an earliest possible date.

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Thanks...I surmised the change in tunic must have been between the Second Boer War and the First World War, but had not been able to narrow the date down from photographs, or find it in writing. I imagine there must be contemporary paperwork describing the changes, but not online, evidently. This is the photograph (from the Royal Naval Dockyard on the island of Ireland in Bermuda) I have been trying to date that I reckon must be between 1897 and 1902/3. There are others where knowing the date of the pocket flap being added would fix an earliest possible date.

The field service cap will help in narrowing down the date of your photo. It’s introduction and replacement is among the documents I just sent if I recall correctly (1897 for intro).  I agree with your assessment of 1897-1903 (intro Brodrick), approximately, based on the frock, collar badge, cap, and ladies fashion, especially the boater and wasp waist dress.  Unless a document can be found that’s the best assessment possible really.

Edited 4 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The field service cap will help in narrowing down the date of your photo. It’s introduction and replacement is among the documents I just sent if I recall correctly (1897 for intro).  I agree with your assessment of 1897-1903 (intro Brodrick), approximately, based on the frock, collar badge, cap, and ladies fashion, especially the boater and wasp waist dress.  Unless a document can be found that’s the best assessment possible really.

Thanks. I'll admit to not being a dab hand with ladies' fashion, though I did see the Coco Chanel film (I do not control the remote). I'm currently picking through the Royal Naval Dockyard's baptismal records on the off chance I find a registration that is possibly for the child (looks like a boy, but cannot be certain from this photograph). The father's occupation, rating, or rank is usually listed. The family may have been stationed in Bermuda after the child was born and baptised elsewhere, of course.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, aodhdubh said:

Thanks. I'll admit to not being a dab hand with ladies' fashion, though I did see the Coco Chanel film (I do not control the remote). I'm currently picking through the Royal Naval Dockyard's baptismal records on the off chance I find a registration that is possibly for the child (looks like a boy, but cannot be certain from this photograph). The father's occupation, rating, or rank is usually listed. The family may have been stationed in Bermuda after the child was born and baptised elsewhere, of course.

For a long time it was quite normal to dress very young boys in shifts like a girl, although unfussy and never in pink!  I would say from the ruched edging to the child’s lower hem and very short sleeves that it’s a girl.

Edited 4 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[cmf]

On the subject of the change in cut of the dark-blue serge tunic to incorporate a buttoned flap for the breast pocket, there was, on a well-know internet auction site, a photograph, dated to 1907, taken of a group of ORs of the RMLI from the armoured cruiser HMS Good Hope, wearing the flapless pattern with a mixture of brass 'Globe and Laurel' collar badges and the old, red worsted, LI bugles. Certainly, in Chris Pollendine's 'Campaign 1915' there is an example of the flapped dark-blue serge tunic, marked with a 1908 date.

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, cmf said:

On the subject of the change in cut of the dark-blue serge tunic to incorporate a buttoned flap for the breast pocket, there was, on a well-know internet auction site, a photograph, dated to 1907, taken of a group of ORs of the RMLI from the armoured cruiser HMS Good Hope, wearing the flapless pattern with a mixture of brass 'Globe and Laurel' collar badges and the old, red worsted, LI bugles. Certainly, in Chris Pollendine's 'Campaign 1915' there is an example of the flapped dark-blue serge tunic, marked with a 1908 date.

Chris

So the changeover during 1907-08 Chris?  Presumably it’s recorded on a list of changes somewhere, but I’ve not been able to find chapter and verse thus far.

[cmf]

I think that would be the best working assumption, Frogsmile, based upon what we have to go on . . . until WW1 it does seem quite rare to catch photos of the men of the RMLI and RMA in anything but the dark-blue, undress 'frock' or their respective Full Dress tunics. It also seems the larger buttons worn on the Full Dress tunic and 'frock' were also adopted for the serge tunic at the same time as the pocket flap. You're right, the instruction to alter the dark-blue serge tunic must exist somewhere, and most probably will be found as a note on a tailor's list eventually . . .

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, cmf said:

I think that would be the best working assumption, Frogsmile, based upon what we have to go on . . . until WW1 it does seem quite rare to catch photos of the men of the RMLI and RMA in anything but the dark-blue, undress 'frock' or their respective Full Dress tunics. It also seems the larger buttons worn on the Full Dress tunic and 'frock' were also adopted for the serge tunic at the same time as the pocket flap. You're right, the instruction to alter the dark-blue serge tunic must exist somewhere, and most probably will be found as a note on a tailor's list eventually . . .

Chris

Yes, there’s not a huge difference between the two Chris.  Lower pockets remained the same, and I suspect that the chest flap was purely to address the need for a secure pocket when men were bending and stretching in physical activity.  At most the only other modification might have been to make button holes slightly larger to compensate for 30-ligne buttons.

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE