Translating my Great Grandfather's medal card.

[ss002d6252]

 

Quote

I understand all soldiers got a copy of any citation like that made? I’m surprised duplicates weren’t made for records etc? 

Almost all of the MM records were destroyed when the record storage warehouse was burnt down in WW2.

 

Craig

[wandererpaul]

The schedule number is the one piece of info that could help in finding out when he was awarded the MM.

 

the man who could help is on here, @collectorsguide, as he and others have put together a huge amount of work relating to MMs and when they were awarded.

 

Edited 27 December , 2019 by wandererpaul

[RichardsProductions99]

2 minutes ago, wandererpaul said:

The schedule number is the one piece of info that could help in finding out when he was awarded the MM.

 

the man who could help is on here, @collectorsguide, as he and others have put together a huge amount of work relating to MMs and when they were awarded.

 

Thank you! So the schedule number relates to when/where the citation was made? 

[wandererpaul]

7 minutes ago, RichardsProductions99 said:

Thank you! So the schedule number relates to when/where the citation was made? 

the schedule number would give a date, I believe, of when he was awarded the MM and in which action. Those numbered around the Schedule number may also have been awarded an MM at the same time. So giving a possible action in which it was awarded.

 

search out @collectorsguide posts on previous threads regarding MMs and you will see what info could be gleaned from the schedule number.

 

for example, see this thread and the question regarding the MM. @collectorsguide replied with a lot of info because of the schedule number on the MM card.

 

 

Edited 27 December , 2019 by wandererpaul

[EDWARD1]

Schedule 205019 within the range 201000-209999, London Gazette no 58 11th Feb 1919 for actions Amiens 8/8/18-3/9/18.

Eddie

[wandererpaul]

11 minutes ago, EDWARD1 said:

Schedule 205019 within the range 201000-209999, London Gazette no 58 11th Feb 1919 for actions Amiens 8/8/18-3/9/18.

Eddie

Getting closer.....

[RichardsProductions99]

14 minutes ago, EDWARD1 said:

Schedule 205019 within the range 201000-209999, London Gazette no 58 11th Feb 1919 for actions Amiens 8/8/18-3/9/18.

Eddie

Thank you! I have it as February 7th 1919 in the Supplement to the London Gazette? 

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31173/supplement/2100/data.pdf

Edited 27 December , 2019 by RichardsProductions99

[RichardsProductions99]

Also was the 2nd Battalion RF in Amiens in August/September 1918? 
I’m struggling to find any reference in the Battalion Diary to Amiens

Edited 27 December , 2019 by RichardsProductions99

[EDWARD1]

I agree the 2nd RF were much further north. The info for the schedules came from The Great War Medal Collectors Companion Vol 1 Pg 411

[RichardsProductions99]

7 minutes ago, EDWARD1 said:

I agree the 2nd RF were much further north. The info for the schedules came from The Great War Medal Collectors Companion Vol 1 Pg 411

So I wasn't going mad!

It isn't likely he was sent there attached to another unit as a signaller is it?

Are there no other references to that schedule?

 

I wonder if it would help to find out the schedule linked to the Feb 7th edition of the Gazette. Though it may just be the same one.

Edited 27 December , 2019 by RichardsProductions99

[wandererpaul]

15 minutes ago, RichardsProductions99 said:

So I wasn't going mad!

It isn't likely he was sent there attached to another unit as a signaller is it?

Are there no other references to that schedule?

 

I wonder if it would help to find out the schedule linked to the Feb 7th edition of the Gazette. Though it may just be the same one.

 

I would send a quick polite private message to collectorsguide to ask if he can enlighten you as to when the schedule number was issued. It'll pin it down to a few days.

Edited 27 December , 2019 by wandererpaul

[RichardsProductions99]

6 minutes ago, wandererpaul said:

 

I would send a quick polite private message to collectorsguide to ask if he can enlighten you as to when the schedule number was issued. It'll pin it down to a few days.

Just sent one, hopefully he can help.

I doubt that even if he had been serving attached to another unit they would have used anything but his own Battalion on the citation.

[kenf48]

It is always helpful to look at the higher level diaries:

 

The 29th Division has this memorandum dated 20th September seeking recommendations for the New Years Honours lists of awards, which I believe is what the fifth supplement of the Gazette represents though you would need to check this.  Although the memorandum states the final list will be published I can see no record of it. I've not looked in the Brigade Diary.  It probably coincided with the newspaper account dated November when his name would be on the list.  

The Diary notes the Divisional allotment for other ranks was 56 Honours 19 Mentions.

New Years Honours were often awarded for continuous meritorious service rather than a single act of gallantry, the memorandum cites the example of the award of the MC to a Transport Officer, the example could equally apply to a signaller consistently keeping lines of communication open under fire.  It is perhaps worth noting unlike other gallantry awards, e.g. the D.C.M. the M.M. did not attract any financial reward in WW1.

It is always possible his account reflected the modesty of that generation.

 

 

 

 

The Divisional Diary does circulate a  list of bravery awards granted for actions from 20th September to 11th November 1918

Pte Blackman does not appear on this list as it was published on the 20th February, i.e. after his award was gazetted.

The only previous list in the Diary was published in June and that is for the King's Birthday Honours.

 

Ken

 

 

[RichardsProductions99]

I am pretty certain the medal was for one particular act of gallantry, it’s a matter of when and what.  I saw the two lists of Military Medal winners in the Battalion diary. It’s a pity it wasn’t mentioned more often as a footnote. 

[kenf48]

The 9th Bn men  in the Gazette shown at the end of September

 

The 7th Bn men listed 22 September (for recent operations).

 

would seem the dates in the previously posted Divisional Instruction may be relevant

 

Ken

 

 

[RichardsProductions99]

5 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

The 9th Bn men  in the Gazette shown at the end of September

 

The 7th Bn men listed 22 September (for recent operations).

 

would seem the dates in the previously posted Divisional Instruction may be relevant

 

Ken

 

 

Hey, sorry If I seem dense Ken, what's this about the 9th and 7th Battalion? 

And do you mean the February 1918-September 1918 dates? or the 1st and 15th August 1918 dates?

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, RichardsProductions99 said:

Hey, sorry If I seem dense Ken, what's this about the 9th and 7th Battalion? 

And do you mean the February 1918-September 1918 dates? or the 1st and 15th August 1918 dates?

 

In an effort to establish the possible dates of the operations for which the M.M. was awarded in the 2nd Battalion I looked at men named in the same Gazette entry as Blackman but who served in other Battalions of the RF listed on the same page of the Gazette.  I could only see one other man from the 2nd Bn in that list.

 

Not all the War Diaries I looked at listed the men who are listed, but there were full lists for the above two Battalions on the dates shown.  In other words for operations prior to 20th September 1918.  We know Blackman was not on the 29th Division list for operations from that date. 

 

This  accords with the dates on the 29th Division Instruction from 25th February to the 16/17th September 1918.  It may have been a coincidence and the award may have been for a single action I was merely suggesting the possibility it may not have been.

 

Ken

 

 

[RichardsProductions99]

So what we know (or don't know thus far)

 

.Private L H Blackman, Signaller, received his military medal by post, either at the war's end or after in 1919.

.He is mentioned as having won the award in the November 9th 1918 edition of his local paper as having won the MM

.He is mentioned in the London Gazette supplement of February 7th 1919 

.He won the medal whilst serving with the 2nd Battalion Royal Fusiliers, 29th Division (unless he was attached to another unit? Unlikely)

. According to the schedule his citation (if it was an isolated action) should've taken place between 8/8/18 - 3/9/18.

.He is mentioned nowhere in the Battalion War Diary as having won the medal, nor in the 29th Division list according to Ken.

 

What is uncertain:

.Private Blackman in his old age told my Uncle that he won his medal when he took a wrong turning whilst delivering a message (maybe on a motorcycle?), ending up behind German lines/near German lines, and managed to make his way back.

.He may have won the medal for actions in/near Amiens. (Which is odd as there is no mention of his Battalion being there between the dates suggested above).

.He may have won the medal for continued good conduct (but then why specifically citate for an event between 8/8/18 - 3/9/18

[RichardsProductions99]

Hello all,

 

I am still trying to solve the mystery of the Military Medal.

It is the last major unknown I have really, as I have a lot of the other information about his service now.

 

My Uncle is pretty adamant that my Great Grandfather said he one the medal for an incident whilst riding a motorcycle then taking a wrong turning behind enemy lines.

Whether this is true or not, what I really have to find out is the precise time frame (down to days) the medal was won.

 

Best wishes,

 

Chris 

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, RichardsProductions99 said:

My Uncle is pretty adamant that my Great Grandfather said he one the medal for an incident whilst riding a motorcycle then taking a wrong turning behind enemy lines.

Whether this is true or not, what I really have to find out is the precise time frame (down to days) the medal was won.

 

Old soldiers tell stories, while no doubt proud of his award has it occurred he may have played down the event?

 I find it strange that it is not mentioned in the context of an after action report.  I would ask how accurate is the Schedule and could it apply to continuous conduct.

 

A motorcyclist (not necessarily lost but not many folk about)

Courtesy IWM

 

Ken

[RichardsProductions99]

It's funny you should say about him playing down the event. Apparently when he told my Uncle about it he spoke of it quite casually, like he'd just been carrying a message, been daft and taken a wrong turn and just 'happened' to win a medal for getting back. I think the only mention I know of that he made of the event.

 

It could apply to continuous conduct still, but it sounds as though he was pretty clear it was for this motorcycle incident, which he said occurred later in the war, tying in with the 1918 estimated citation date.  I am surprised as you say that any such incident isn't mentioned as far as can be seen. 

[RichardsProductions99]

I am curious to know if there is any way at all to work out the company my Great Grandfather was in?

Having managed to pin down two probable dates in August 1918, there are several companies of the RF 2nd Batt. that took part. If only one could work out which one.

 

[RichardsProductions99]

Also, @collectorsguide

sent me this information, which may be of interest and help find out more:

 

"LEWIS HENRY BLACKMAN.

*MM..LONDON GAZETTE;11.2.19. RP NUMBER; 68/121/737  

*   SCHEDULE NUMBER; 205019 ONE OF 3 AWARDS OF THE MM ON THIS GAZETTE SCHEDULE.The others recommended with him were; JOHN HARLOWE SGT 114819 2ND BN RF/ THOMAS ALFRED HILL SGT 5001 2/R.FUS./

*L/GAZ ;11.2.19. COVERS THE PERIOD 8.8.18 TO 3.9.18 

*OPERATIONS OF 29TH DIV DURING THIS PERIOD WERE KNOWN AS THE ADVANCE TO VICTORY AND INVOLVED.....Capture of Outtersteene Ridge 87 brigade on 18.8.18.The 2nd Bn sent out patrols to the fortified LYNDE Farm AT THIS TIME.Award likely for this patrol work

and CAPTURE OF PLOEGSTEERT AND HILL 63 4TH SEPTEMBER WITH 86TH AND 88TH BDE .The 2/R Fus were in 86/Bde so MM possibly won on 4.9.18.at Hill 63.

Advise you look at the 2nd bn War Diary for these dates.

                     The MM is for these Advance to Victory operations."

                       

[collectorsguide]

The fact that the other two men decorated with him were Serjeants and he was a Pte would support the theory that he was a runner for the two patrols sent out to Lynde Farm under Serjeants Harlowe and Hill to report the progress of the 87th brigade attack on 18th August.To have carried the message back on that battlefield would have been extremely hazardous and the information brought back very useful.The award of 3 MMs would be in keeping with the minor involvement of the 86th Bde patrols in the 87 Bde operation.This award is an immediate MM  not a periodic one.

                                 For a major raid or attack the normal allocation of MMs would be 10 to 15 with 3 to 4 DCMs.

                                                                best w, Howard Williamson

[RichardsProductions99]

@collectorsguide That would certainly make sense, if only we knew which company Harlowe and Hill were in.

If he were acting as a runner that would knock the story of the motorcycle out, and the getting lost behind German lines part.

 

That is very interesting about the medal allocations, I never thought of that.

Edited 16 January , 2020 by RichardsProductions99