Insignia and colours for my Great Grandfather's uniform

[RichardsProductions99]

Dear All, 

 

This is my first post on this site, and I hope that with the wealth of knowledge on here, someone may be able to help me.

Attached to this post, or should be, is a photograph of my Great Grandfather: Private Lewis H Blackman, G/S11281

He was a signaller in the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) in the 3rd Battalion.

He was wounded in 1915, shot through the arm by a sniper whilst laying out a vital communications wire.

For this action he received the Military Medal, and was in hospital for some time, but still he went back to the front later in the war and served till its end.

 

My question to all is as to what colour the triangular patch on his arm would've been, and what his epaulette patches would've had on them/what colour they would've been.

 

If anyone can help, I would be exceedingly grateful, as I am trying to find out as much info as I can, to tell my Grandmother about, and with the idea being of constructing a replica of his uniform at some point in the future.

 

Any other notes on the uniform would be most interesting also.

 

Best wishes,

 

Chris

[GWF1967]

26 minutes ago, RichardsProductions99 said:

Dear All, 

 

This is my first post on this site, and I hope that with the wealth of knowledge on here, someone may be able to help me.

Attached to this post, or should be, is a photograph of my Great Grandfather: Private Lewis H Blackman, G/S11281

He was a signaller in the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) in the 3rd Battalion.

He was wounded in 1915, shot through the arm by a sniper whilst laying out a vital communications wire.

For this action he received the Military Medal, and was in hospital for some time, but still he went back to the front later in the war and served till its end.

 

My question to all is as to what colour the triangular patch on his arm would've been, and what his epaulette patches would've had on

 

Chris

Hi, 

 very nice photograph. 

 He was in 2nd Batt./ 29th Division, when awarded his Military Medal. I believe the triangle would be red with blue edging.  There is another thread running discussing the blue patch worn on the epaulet to identify a signaller.

He also wears a brass R.F shoulder title and flaming grenade.

 

(Image from Wiki)

 

 

Edited 20 November , 2019 by GWF1967

[ForeignGong]

He has two wound stripes on his arm, do you know when the second wounds was. Does not appears to have any service papers available.

[RichardsProductions99]

Just now, ForeignGong said:

He has two wound stripes on his arm, do you know when the second wounds was. Does not appears to have any service papers available.

That's something I have been trying to find about for some time, I cannot find any reference to the second wound and it is quite the puzzle.

I have searched through the National Archives website and only found reference to the first wound in '15.

[RichardsProductions99]

I consulted someone a few days back who said that they thought the uniform was definitely later war, due to its buttons and finely tailored appearance. So that's probably worth considering.

[cmf]

Hi Chris,

 

Your Great Grandfather is wearing the universal pattern Service Dress jacket for ‘Other Ranks’, first introduced in 1902. This was highly standardised, worn across all Arms and Services of the Regular Army, in the United Kingdom and temperate climes . It was cut to have a loose fit, to permit a waistcoat or cardigan sweater to be worn underneath in cold weather. The jacket, which had a stand-and-fall collar, khaki in colour (officially known as ‘Drab’) and manufactured from serge, was single breasted with 5 large brass buttons positioned down the front. Service Dress jackets were issued with brass ‘General Service’ (GS) buttons (embossed with the Royal Arms) attached, with only ‘Rifle’ regiments having official sanction to replace GS buttons with black horn buttons, decorated with a bugle (despite this, many historic regiments replaced the GS buttons with those of regimental pattern, taken from Full Dress tunics).

 

On his lower left sleeve your Great Grandfather wears the skill-at-arms badge of a trained signaller, i.e. crossed signals flags, in this case in gilding metal. Under the crossed flags, he wears two so-called 'wound stripes'; these strips of Gold Russia Braid were introduced in July 1916 as a dress distinction for those who had been wounded, and whose name had appeared in the official Casualty Lists as being 'wounded'. A strip of braid was issued for each separate occasion a soldier had been wounded.

 

From about 1906/1907, the Service Dress jacket was manufactured with fixed shoulder straps, to accomodate the newly introduced unit shoulder-titles in gilding metal. The Regular battalions of the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) wore a grenade above the initialism 'RF'. In Spring 1916, as an economy measure, embroidered or printed or painted slip-on titles were introduced, white on drab cloth: these are what your Great Grandfather is wearing, a white grenade above 'RF' (for an example of that worn by the R. Fus., see https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/album.php?albumid=3043&page=2) These never replaced the metal shoulder-titles, and were only worn until 1919, when declared obsolete (from early 1917, regulations demanded that the cloth titles be removed from the shoulder straps, and sewn to the sleeves just below the shoulder).

 

The white, plaited cord, lanyard around his left shoulder is not a dress embellishment. Instead, it was a functional item, worn to secure the 1905 pattern Clasp Knife, to prevent loss; the knife itself was stored in the left breast pocket (the right breast pocket, by regulation, holding a ‘Soldiers’ Small Book’, or on mobilization, his ‘Soldier’s Pay Book for use on Active Service’). Comprising blade, tin opener, and marline spike, the Clasp Knife was the regulation hoofpick of the British Army, and before 1914 only on general issue to mounted troops and to a few dismounted corps, but not to the infantry. As a result therefore, before WW1 the white lanyard had become almost the mark of the mounted soldier (whether Household Cavalry, Line Cavalry, Royal Artillery [RHA, RFA], Army Service Corps, etc etc), but after mobilization in 1914, when all troops, mounted or dismounted, received the clasp knife, we see the lanyard in photographs of troops from across all the arms and services of the Regular Army and Territorial Force. 

 

On your Great Grandfather's upper sleeve is the red triangle 'battle insignia' of the 29^th Division, adopted in May, 1916. From this, we can determine that at the time of this photograph he was serving with the 2nd Battalion, R. Fus., in the 86th Infantry Brigade. A scheme of coloured battalion indicators was also adopted by the 29^th Division; at the date of this photograph, after July 1916, the 2nd Bn, R. Fus, wore a felt rectangle on the back of the collar, diagonally divided top left to bottom right, being dark-blue to the left, and dark-red to the right. 

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 November , 2019 by cmf

[RichardsProductions99]

Thank you CMF for your detailed insight, it is greatly appreciated and I shall pass on the information to my Grandmother.

 

My biggest  mystery at the moment is how he came to have wound stripes. Did one absolutely have to be mentioned in a casualty list in order to receive one?

I have searches Findmypast, Forces War records, the National archives website as mentioned etc, to no avail, not one mention of a second wound.

Either it happened earlier in the war prior to his arm wound in 1915, or in 1918, when  he returned to France. (He never went to Salonika or Italy).

 

Interestingly, the image I believe was used in this November 9th 1918 edition of the Folkestone, Hythe, Sandgate, and Cheriton Herald, suggesting he actually received his medal (which he got sent by post, refusing to collect it in person) later in the war after his 1915 commendation. 

 

That would explain the lack of MM Bar, and place it as being taken probably whilst at home in Hythe just before his return to the front, as the image was taken by C. Aldridge of Hythe.

[cmf]

Thanks Chris.

 

Yes, Army Council Instructions were quite clear on a man needing to appear in official casualty lists to be eligible for the distinction: Chris Baker has the details here:https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-a-wound-stripe/

 

I've also had a look for an entry in the casualty lists that would indicate a second 'wound stripe', bu found nothing so far . . . 

 

Chris

[RichardsProductions99]

3 minutes ago, cmf said:

Thanks Chris.

 

Yes, Army Council Instructions were quite clear on a man needing to appear in official casualty lists to be eligible for the distinction: Chris Baker has the details here:https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-a-wound-stripe/

 

I've also had a look for an entry in the casualty lists that would indicate a second 'wound stripe', bu found nothing so far . . . 

 

Chris

I am inclined to think the second wound was around September 1916 time, as that's when he leaves the 32nd Batt.

[FROGSMILE]

Might he not have been wounded with the Labour Corps, assuming he was with one of their units in France & Flanders?

Quite a number of Labour Corps units suffered casualties during the headlong retreat following the German offensives commencing March 1918.

[RichardsProductions99]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Might he not have been wounded with the Labour Corps, assuming he was with one of their units in France & Flanders?

Quite a number of Labour Corps units suffered casualties during the headlong retreat following the German offensives commencing March 1918.

It's possible, but it doesn't fit with the two major time gaps in the service history so I'm not sure. 

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, RichardsProductions99 said:

It's possible, but it doesn't fit with the two major time gaps in the service history so I'm not sure. 

Apologies, I think I’ve confused this with a different thread. I see that you’ve made no mention of service with the Labour Corps, which was a common destination for men wounded and recovered to only a lower level of fitness.

[RichardsProductions99]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Apologies, I think I’ve confused this with a different thread. I see that you’ve made no mention of service with the Labour Corps, which was a common destination for men wounded and recovered to only a lower level of fitness.

Ah no worries. He must've been healthy and fit enough to go back into a non labour unit in spite of his two wounds.

[RichardsProductions99]

Having looked closer at the picture, I was wondering, was it possible for a soldier to have a drab slip on epaulette patch, with brass titles affixed to it?

It appears from the picture that the titles are on lighter cloth, but they don't look like the white embroidered ones cmf sent a link to.

Perhaps I am confused and this has already been mentioned, but it definitely looks like brass on drab.

 

Bets wishes,

 

Chris 

[RichardsProductions99]

Also I have realised that his buttons are Royal Fusiliers specific with the rose at the centre. You can just make them out in the picture!

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, it is possible that brass (gilding metal) titles have been fitted to a cloth slide to facilitate swopping between jackets.  By the last two years of the war various orders were issued replacing metal titles with cloth ones, and then moving them to be stitched to the top of the arm, just below the shoulder seam.  Some soldiers, typically regulars, who wanted a bit of swank when walking out, or having a special portrait photo taken, would sometimes resort to slip on titles like that shown.

Edited 28 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[RichardsProductions99]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, it is possible that brass (gilding metal) titles have been fitted to a cloth slide to facilitate swopping between jackets.

Ah thank you. It does look like that might be the case, as the space between the lettering and the flaming grenade symbol is wider than on the embroidered version, and the grenade is more prominent.

[wainfleet]

Chris

As pointed out by GWF1967, the light-coloured patch under his brass shoulder titles is blue cloth denoting a Signaller role within his unit. (The crossed flags merely mean he is Signals qualified and not that this is his job.) Cloth slip-on titles did exist but that's not what's in this photo.

Just to be clear - the flat red triangle of the 29th Division does not have blue edging; it's plain red.

Cheers,

W.

[cmf]

I've just re-read the threads in the forum re. the use of blue slip-on shoulder bands to denote unit signallers other than in the R.E. and it's been fascinating. I'm sure I read the posts at the time . . . then promptly forgot about their use. I'd just assumed (!) the slip-ons worn by the Royal Fusilier were in light coloured cotton, as later worn (though admittedly, after the order to place the titles on the upper arms). The use of brass titles on the blue bands woud seem to fit perfectly with Chris' observatons re. the photo.

 

Strangely enough, I'm going through my photograph collection, and have just been been musing over an artilleryman's cloth slip-ons, light in colour, and seemingly with brass titles affixed! His left forearm is resting in such a way to preclude seeing any crossed flags, but his wearing a signaller's blue slip-on shoulder bands offers the best explanation!

 

Chris

Edited 29 November , 2019 by cmf

[RichardsProductions99]

That's most interesting! So the actual slip on part under the titles was the blue part. Was it a light blue then? 

[RichardsProductions99]

And are we sure the 29th Division Triangle didn't have blue edging? As CMF said, did it not correspond with the Blue/red divided square on his collar/back?

[RichardsProductions99]

Here's a picture of him (Bottom row on the left)  with fellow signallers, that we believe was taken whilst he was over in France or Belgium, as it is  a Postcard with 'Carte Postale' on the back.

[cmf]

Excellent photo, Chris!

 

When it comes to colour, the slip-ons would have been blue, but determining colour shades on orthochrome photos can be a dark art . . . if you go to the post here you'll see how the blue in the signallers white-over-blue armlet appears in orthochrome . . .

 

Note the crossed-flags skill-at-arms badge being worn above the rank chevrons by the Serjeant and two Lance-Corporals, indicating their appointment as assistant instructors in signalling.

 

The shallow triangular 'battle insignia' of the 29th Division was purely red. No blue.

 

Chris

Edited 2 December , 2019 by cmf

[RichardsProductions99]

Would the lightness of the patch suggest a lighter hue perhaps? It is unlikely to be navy or the like?

And I wondered why the Serjeant and Lance Corporal have the differently positioned flags, that explains it.

 

In regards to his earlier career,  I am assuming the 3rd and 32nd Battalions had their own battle patches?

 

Thanks again,

 

Chris

 

[wainfleet]

1 hour ago, RichardsProductions99 said:

And are we sure the 29th Division Triangle didn't have blue edging? As CMF said, did it not correspond with the Blue/red divided square on his collar/back?

 

Positive. The 29th Division sign was invariably a plain red triangle with no variations. I don't know what the logic of the rear signs was but it didn't affect the Divisional sign.