A missing grandfather

[helpjpl]

1.  I haven't had time to trawl through the University of Edinburgh Roll of Honour looking for a match with your photo. David Nicol, born 1897, is listed on page 78 but no photo:

https://archive.org/details/rollofhonour19141921univ/page/n11

 

2.  University of Glasgow Roll of Honour - 566 images to trawl through looking for a match with your photo:

https://www.universitystory.gla.ac.uk/ww1-search/?submit=y&sname=&fname=&rank=&regiment=&degree=&awards=&limitb=N&limitp=Y&start=0

 

JP

 

 

 

Edited 13 September , 2019 by helpjpl

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, johnboy said:

The baby was born 6mnths premature. Is this possible

A baby born 6 months prematurely cannot survive even today.

But it wasn't.

Conception in December, birth in June gives roughly 6 months out of a 9 month pregnancy. So 3 months early.

Possibly survivable then, I can't check at the moment.

[helpjpl]

Here is Cpt. David Nicol:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56424235

 

Edit: Referred to in #23 and #26

 

JP

Edited 13 September , 2019 by helpjpl

[corisande]

2 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Possibly survivable then,

 

I think it is a moot point as to when conception happened. I don't think anyone is too sure.

 

The fact is that she was born and survived.

 

(babies of 900 gms can survive today, but that would not have been possible then)

 

I think at best you get a perhaps 6 week perion for conception, but it only becomes pertinent if you are trying to link it to hthe putative father's leave

[corisande]

5 minutes ago, helpjpl said:

Here is Cpt. David Nicol:

 

Remarkable find helppjl :-)

 

Here are the two side by side. On balance I don't think it is him, but I am rubbish on photos

 

[helpjpl]

3 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

Remarkable find helppjl :-)

 

Here are the two side by side. On balance I don't think it is him, but I am rubbish on photos

 

 

Definitely not him. One ruled out for JOhn Watts - ???? to go.

 

JP

[corisande]

Davi Nicol was with 14th A&S when he died

 

LLT gives their movements as

 

14th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Stirling in early 1915 and moved to Plymouth by June.
September 1915 : moved to Witley and came under command of 118th Brigade in 39th Division.
23 February 1916 : moved to Blackdown and transferred to 120th Brigade in 40th Division.
June 1916 : landed at Le Havre.
7 April 1918 : reduced to cadre and transferred to 90th Brigade in 30th Division.

[HolymoleyRE]

Not sure if it is help or a hindrance at this stage, I need to do some more digging when connectivity is better. 

 

I have found a couple of results to #### Bruce Fultons, one was bizarrely Jessie Bruce Fulton, who married in to the Smith family and died in 1914.

 

Also there is a David B Fulton (appreciate there are a few, but this one stood out because his mobility, and his second daughters initial), married Winifred R Dunn in London 1918, then seems to have had two daughters Patricia E R Fulton 1919 & Sheila B Fulton 1920 in Castle Ward, Northumberland, David & Winifred seem to dissappear. But the daughters head back to London & Surrey. 

 

All very speculative on my part at this stage. 

 

Andy 

Edited 13 September , 2019 by HolymoleyRE

[helpjpl]

30 minutes ago, HolymoleyRE said:

 

Also there is a David B Fulton (appreciate there are a few, but this one stood out because his mobility, and his second daughters initial), married Winifred R Dunn in London 1918, then seems to have had two daughters Patricia E R Fulton 1919 & Sheila B Fulton 1920 in Castle Ward, Northumberland, David & Winifred seem to dissappear. But the daughters head back to London & Surrey. 

 

 

You can rule him out. He is David Bowie Fulton aged 42 when he married Winifred Rannie Dunn at St Peter's Hampstead on 20 July 1918.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/65909532

 

JP 

[HolymoleyRE]

11 minutes ago, helpjpl said:

 

You can rule him out. He is David Bowie Fulton aged 42 when he married Winifred Rannie Dunn at St Peter's Hampstead on 20 July 1918.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/65909532

 

JP 

Great stuff, I had seen Bowie Fulton earlier. Just was unable to access all the files. 

 

Now back home on WIFI. 

 

Andy 

[corisande]

How about David Bryce Grant - family tree on Ancestry

 

He was a medical student. Can anyone get a photo?

[JOhn Watts]

He was also a Lieutenant in ASH.  Regimental Number:  12044 and 583029 from the Medal Awards Card

[JOhn Watts]

David Bryce Grant

 

the link below illustrates his progression in the Army.  He ended up as a Dental Surgeon practising in Greenock.

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2406582

 

I was also told this afternoon that that was a little knowledge of a dental surgeon in the family.

 

he was born in 1892 in Bothwell, Scotland and was living there in 1901 and 1911.  parents George S Grant and Martha S Bryce

 

also he has a brother Francis William Grant who was a medical Practitioner, which also ties in with part of the oral history.

 

This is a possibility worth investigating - now to find his army records

Edited 13 September , 2019 by JOhn Watts
updated

[corisande]

I suspect the only way will prove this, assuming that his name was not David Bruce Fulton, will be to find a photo

 

Given that David Bryce Grant was an officer in ASH, I would be doubtful if there is anything more that we can do to link him to David Bruce Fulton, other than the photo (same applies to any other ASH officer that we might investigate). And as you would expect, as he was not killed, his photo is not in Glasgow Memorial site.

 

I think we have established that "David Bruce Fulton" has never existed, and that either the name was put down incorrectly on the back of the photo (if he did not sign it himself). Or the name is completely made up, and all we can say is that he was an officer in ASH

 

Having looked at his family, do you think that they would have been snobbish . The 1901 census has his widowed mother as a seamstress. But they must have got funds from somewhere for him to go to Glasgow Med and Dental School (could have been a scholarship). Apart from being a "nurse" what was Jessie Isobel McArthur 's family background

Edited 13 September , 2019 by corisande

[HolymoleyRE]

10 minutes ago, corisande said:

think we have established that "David Bruce Fulton" has never existed,

Kind of agree, but on my earlier post with Jessie Bruce Fulton.. TBH I struggled to find much more on her, but she clearly existed, also in a another article in the LG, the is a reference to an Elizabeth Bruce Fulton (Seton) Montgomery & her husband Archibald Richard Fulton (Seton) Montgomery. 

 

Scottish records aren't my strong point, but would be interested on who Jessie Bruce Fultons relatives were before marrying ... Also what's the Fulton (Seton) all about?  Is it an alternate spelling pronunciation?

[JOhn Watts]

It is quite possible that names change over time.  Jessie Isabel's father was a coachman and died the same year she was born in 1894.

 

The two Grant boys I have identified David Bryce, and Francis William both qualified as Dentists, so the money must have come from somewhere to fund that.  Their father was a Plasterer and he died in 1897 after catching Pneumonia  at the Queens Jubilee Parade in Glasgow.  He was a volunteer in the local militia and may have been on parade himself  (Info culled from other peoples trees)..  This left the boys, their sister and widowed mother to fend for themselves.  Both became Dentists.  David Bryce was in ASH and I think that Francis William was possibly in the RAMC; I can only find a Medal Card for him.  He also appears to have made it to Captain.  perhaps this is where the snobbery comes in.

 

It would be nice if anyone could turn up any more military info to help substantiate this as a possible link.  I shall keep looking over the next week.

 

the least I can do is to extend the tree with this family as a test to see if it brings any DNA matches in to substantiate this.  

[Heid the Ba]

8 minutes ago, HolymoleyRE said:

Also what's the Fulton (Seton) all about?  Is it an alternate spelling pronunciation?

Not one I've ever come across.  Seton is probably more common as a surname (in Fife and the Borders at any rate) but I don't know of any connection between the two names.

[HolymoleyRE]

Info only

[petwes]

Sorry if this has been covered before but I have been wondering if someone wanted to create a legend, they might use something memorable. Similar first names or initials and what about using your mother's maiden name as surname? The England and Wales birth registers give mother's maiden name; is the same information available for Scottish births?

Like many others I have downloaded data to a spreadsheet based on WO 374 and WO 339 for Argyll & Sutherland officers with no success; I  might cross reference with CWGC to eliminate records.

 

Peter

[alf mcm]

It was common in Scotland to use the mother's maiden name as a middle name, even if it wasn't on the birth certificate.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[helpjpl]

4 hours ago, JOhn Watts said:

 

He was also a Lieutenant in ASH.  Regimental Number:  12044 and 583029 from the Medal Awards Card

 

You've got in a muddle.

 

1.  David Brown Grant:

 

2.  This is David Bryce Grant. Went overseas  20 April 1918:

 

 

JP

 

[JOhn Watts]

So I did,  I must have clicked on the wrong entry in Ancestry. 

 

Interesting about the late date for going to France on the medal record for David Bryce Grant.  That may tie in with his activities in the UK and provide opportunity for the possible relationship with Jessie Isobel.

 

I've just searched for him on TNA and found an entry for his ASH military records.  I've just requested a quote for providing me with whatever they have.  Fingers crossed.

 

TNA only has the medal card for his brother Francis William Grant so will need to look elsewhere for him.

 

Thanks for all the help today, I've learned quite a bit about searching other records.

[helpjpl]

David Bryce Grant:

 

1.  London Gazette 17 December 1917

The undermentioned from Officer Cadet Units, to be 2nd Lts:-

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30430/supplement/13172/data.pdf

Arg. & Suth'd Highrs.-David Bryce Grant:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30430/supplement/13173/data.pdf

 

2.  Dental Student:

 

3.  Dentist Register - qualified 1919:

 

4.  Edit:  Post Office annual Glasgow Directory 1908-1909:

 

Robert Smith Grant qualified as a Dentist in 1896, L.D.S. F.P.S. Glasgow, and died in 1944:

 

He was born 17 June 1869 - the son of Francis William Grant and Jane Maria Smith. May be related to David Bryce and his brother Francis William Grant.

 

Personal Message sent.

 

JP

Edited 14 September , 2019 by helpjpl
Post Office annual Glasgow Directory 1908-1909

[gmac101]

If you are trying to identify the photographer this might help

 

http://edinphoto.org.uk/2/2__professional_photographers.htm

 

 

[Neale1961]

Some thoughts to consider or reject as you wish.

FROM CWGC

* BRUCE, D. - Lance Corporal.14th Bn. Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Service Number S/9441

Died 22/03/1917

* FULTON, ANDREW-Second Lieutenant 6th Bn.  Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Died 23/04/1917;  Aged 20

Son of Mr. and Mrs. Alexander Fulton, of "West Craigs," 5, West Barnton Terrace, Edinburgh.

FROM SCOTLANDS PEOPLE – Soldiers wills

* William David BRUCE - 04/12/1916  -  Private  3166 Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.  * David FULTON    Balmule Farm, Burntisland, Pte., Royal Scots, d. 15/07/1916 in France, intestate. Scotlands People also show quite a number of registered deaths of WW1 servicemen with names David BRUCE and David FULTON