Completely Stuck - Spr Bernard Christopher Allmark

[rolt968]

2 hours ago, George Rayner said:

What a great job he had prior to service!

 

George

Apologies! I missed this. For those who can't read the record: "Billiard marker". I wonder if it paid well.

RM

[PRC]

3 hours ago, rolt968 said:

William Henry Allmark's soldier's record can be found at FMP.

 

Is there anything in there to confirm Bernards date of birth - at the moment there seems to be a discrepancy between the year of birth as shown in the Army Register and calculated from the census ages, and the date of birth quoted by the OP.

 

4 hours ago, AM87 said:

I have tracked down Christopher Allmarks DOB as being 25/12/1899.

 

There also seems to be a mismatch between birthplaces quoted by the OP and the children identified so far

 

4 hours ago, AM87 said:

William Henry Allamark seems to have moved round from port town to port town (he has children born in Glasgow, Liverpool, Swansea and Portsmouth) so i assumed he was in the RN. 

 

Agree Glasgow, but Queenstown\Cork, Isle of Wight and Aldershot are what I'm seeing - so unless Liverpool, Swansea and Portsmouth happened after 1901 and I couldn't find them on the 1911 Census of England & Wales then there is a risk that I have inadvertently sent us off in entirely the wrong direction.

 

Peter

[Skipman]

52 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Is there anything in there to confirm Bernards date of birth - at the moment there seems to be a discrepancy between the year of birth as shown in the Army Register and calculated from the census ages, and the date of birth quoted by the OP.

 

 

Born 25/12/1899 Barracks Maryhill

 

Edit. This information from actual birth certificate

 

Mike

Edited 11 September , 2019 by Skipman

[clk]

Hi,

 

On 10/09/2019 at 16:00, AM87 said:

Do you know when he would of joined up?

 

If you presume that under the 1917 renumbering of the TF Royal Engineers the men that were serving with the line units of the 1st Company Welsh RE were (allowing for men that had "dropped out") the new 6 digit numbers were probably issued sequentially based on their previous 3 digit number. If that were to be the case, what you seem to get is:

 

915/(no renumber) Ridge - attested 3/1 Welsh Field Company 24.7.1915. Discharged before renumbering

931/448510 Warlow - attested 3/1 Welsh Field Company 12.8.1915.

943/(no renumber) James - attested 3/1 Welsh Field Company 12.8.1915. Discharged before renumbering.

952/448528

962/448538 Morgan - attested 3/1 Welsh Field Company 8.10.1915

964/448538 McDonagh - attested 3/1 Welsh Field Company 8.10.1915

981/448557 Phillips - attested 3/1 Welsh Field Company 8.10.1915

986/(no renumber) Bennett - attested 3/1 Welsh Field Company 29.10.1915. Died before renumbering

 

The 3/1 (i.e. the 3rd line) 1st Welsh Field Company RE would effectively have been a UK based training/holding unit, largely supplying men to their 'fighting' units - 1/1 and 2/1 (i.e. the 1st and 2nd line) 1st Welsh Field Companies RE. 

 

When the line units were renamed...

436 (Welsh) Field Coy RE Ex 1/1 Welsh Field Coy RE, with 53 (Welsh) Division.

437 (Welsh) Field Coy RE Ex 2/1 Welsh Field Coy RE - Raised 1914 for 68 (2nd Welsh) Division. Transferred Oct 1915 to 53 (Welsh) Division

 

From the service file of 962/448538 Morgan, it looks like the 3/1 may have been renamed as 445 (Welsh) Reserve Field Coy RE. There is a stamp in his record which seems to imply that he was serving with them when he was renumbered. Whilst the award of his medals clearly shows that your man did serve overseas, for me that does raise the question of from when that might have been. Also, according to the LLT, the renumber block 448001 to 450000 was issued to the line units of the 2nd Field Company - (see previous link). I don't know, but perhaps number blocks weren't issued to reserve units, and that men were renumbered (by whatever criteria) to the most appropriate/least inappropriate one. @Terry_Reeves is an RE specialist, and I would be most inclined to be guided by his comments.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 11 September , 2019 by clk

[PRC]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

Is there anything in there to confirm Bernards date of birth - at the moment there seems to be a discrepancy between the year of birth as shown in the Army Register and calculated from the census ages, and the date of birth quoted by the OP.

 

 

52 minutes ago, Skipman said:

Born 25/12/1899 Barracks Maryhill

 

Apologies - I forgot I could have answered my own question. Since FMP bought Genes Reunited they have added access to some 43,000 pre-Great War Britsh Army Service records. I forget them because I have so little cause to use them.

 

So I can see the service record for William Henry Allmark, and I can see two separate instances where the date of birth for Bernard Christopher is shown as the 25th December 1898 - see attached for one of them.

I can't see the final page but I'm assuming that doesn't change the year to 1899.

 

Otherwise it's difficult to see how a birth in December 1899 could have been recorded by the Army in 1898, unless there was a transcription or printers error;

And how a child born in December 1899 could have been recorded as aged 2 in March 1901, unless his senior NCO father in the Artillery couldn't add up or wanted to mislead the census taker.

And how a child born in December 1899 could have been recorded as aged 13 and working at the start of April 1911 when he should have been in school.

 

Only in death does it add up  - the death of a 66 year old Bernard C Allmark was recorded in the Wandsworth District of London in Q1 of 1966. The 1966 Probate Calendar records that a Bernard Christopher Allmark of 8 Southdean Gardens, London, S.W.19 died on the 26th February 1966.

 

So I'm guessing that at some point in his life Bernard may have chosen to make himself a year younger and it's this revised date of birth that was passed on by the next of kin when registering the death.

 

So unless conversely he lied about his age during the Great War to make himself appear older, then you are looking at him being called up for National Service in December 1916 and in theory not going to a Theatre of War until December 1917 - so joining up just before the Territorial Force renumbering.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[rolt968]

Apologies, everyone. I dropped out for a while as I had quite a complicated piece of research in progress and had to get back to it for a while before I lost my thread.

 

Also apologies I had been so busy tracking the Welsh connection that I hadn't noticed the inconsistency in Bernard Christopher's date of birth. I had taken it as accurate from the 1939 Register (which it isn't!).

 

I should have spotted the reason for the apparent inconsistency of the documents from the Scotlandspeople Index.

The Birth Record in 1899 is 622/1/72: the 72nd birth in the year in Glasgow Maryhill. His brother's birth in October 1900 is 622/1/1390. There were a lot of births in Maryhill. It is common for births in late December of one year to be in the actual register of he following year. I checked the actual birth record; it is indeed 25 December 1898.

Incidentally - matching his service record, William Henry gives his occupation as Sergeant Royal Artillery.

 

There were actually seven children. Josephine Mary Helena was baptised on 29 March 1891 in Newport IoW. She was buried in Freshwater IoW on 22 April 1891.

 

Annie Egan/Allmark died in Gibralter in 1906. William Henry Allmark married Matilda Jane Jones (unfortunately quite a common name) in April-June 1907 in Pembroke. She was in the Pembroke Workhouse and Infirmary at the time of the 1911 Census.

 

RM

Edited 12 September , 2019 by rolt968

[Skipman]

Apologies 1898

8 hours ago, PRC said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Apologies, it is 1898, see attached The heading on Scotlands People says "1899" but the actual record 1898

 

Mike

[AM87]

Thanks all, I really do appreciate everyone’s efforts.  So I guess in summary Chris Allmark did serve with the RE throughout WW1 however he would not of gone overseas until at least 1917 due to his age.  My next mystery to tackle is his with his brother who served with the Border Regiment and earned the SWB.

[PRC]

All,

 

Apologies for labouring the point yesterday but it seemed essential if a link was to be established between the fathers soldiers records and the civil records for Bernard. As far as possible I thinks that has been safely comfirmed. Whether the Royal Engineer Bernard Allmark is the same man is still questionable, although very highly probable.

 

I suspect the smoking gun may come from the 1918 & 1919 Absent Voters List, showing Bernard at the home of his father and stepmother, or one of his siblings.

Alternatively a mention in a local newspaper report linking him to the family or an address where they are known to reside.

 

3 hours ago, AM87 said:

So I guess in summary Chris Allmark did serve with the RE throughout WW1 however he would not of gone overseas until at least 1917 due to his age.

 

It's more a question of "should" not have gone abroad rather than "could" not have gone abroad. The assumption is that he gave his correct birthdate when enlisting or registering for National Service. As he seems to have made himself younger at some point in his life it could have gone either way. All the evidence so far seems to point however to him joining up at the age appropriate point of his 18th birthday in December 1916 - if we have the right man!

 

Hopefully the information about father William Henry the other family members will come in useful when it comes to your other queries.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[clk]

Hi,

 

22 minutes ago, PRC said:

All the evidence so far seems to point however to him joining up at the age appropriate point of his 18th birthday in December 1916

 

The 'near number sampling' of his original 952 number (post #29) suggests a join up date of circa September 1915 though.

 

Regards

Chris

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

 

The 'near number sampling' of his original 952 number (post #29) suggests a join up date of circa September 1915 though.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Apologies - missed your post at the time and then didn't go that far back this evening. You are quite correct and increases the chances that the soldier and the man from the civil records \ fathers army record, may not be one and the same. (or he started playing fast and loose with his date of birth at this stage of his life

 

Cheers,

Peter