German pow's from capture to repatriation

[johnboy]

Thanks Andy  FRom hours spent on internet... and help from Fritz I have come to the conclusion that prisoners taken in the field were taken firstlyto compounds behind the lines,probably guarded by thier captors. Later taken to a more secure place Fritz says his grandfather was held at the citadel arrass. Looking up the citadel it makes sence. I am now thinking that there must have been holding centres at ports or base depots/.

The reason being that they wwould need to be ready for the ship back to UK.I still cannot work out who guarded them on the ship. I have read that at a camp in Jersey The Jersey Militia guarded prisoners.Not helping is the fact that there were camps for interned aliens and combatants.Also a lot of work camps.

[stiletto_33853]

Hi John,

Yes, the help I gave Fritz clearly denoted The Citadel as the holding place for the POW's from the 14th Division area, a map appears in the Divisional War Diary Appendices. As to who took these POW's from their original holding places to the Ports, and then on the ships onto their final destination is still a question in itself which would be good to know.

I know from a series of letters I have from someone in the 8th Rifle Brigade, a Company was used to escort some Germans while they were training in Hampshire to East London Camps with a Cavalry escort some distance away to keep locals away and stop any escaping. They were taken out for a beer or two on arriving by the Essex Regiment before returning.

 

Andy

Edited 8 September , 2019 by stiletto_33853

[johnboy]

So it is possible not all the guarding duties were carried out by RDF

[stiletto_33853]

Territorials seemingly, this was dated 1st April 1915.

 

Andy

[johnboy]

Thanks Interesting. I have tried to find an AO or Regulation but to no avail. Your report mentions Police. Would this be MP or civilian Police? It also calls them Aliens. Does this mean Civilians?  I wonder if there was a difference in treatment of Alians and Combatants.

[stiletto_33853]

John,

Reading the rest of his letters it makes reference to mainly being soldiers.

The only other reference I can find in my records are with the T.F. battalions of the Rifle Brigade, mainly made up of older men from the National Reserve. 19th RB on 12/11/16 they went to Kantara as guards for a POW Camp, basically until the end of the war. 20th RB ended up as POW guards in the Nile delta region. The 23rd RB was formed mainly of men that had been POW guards at the camp at Knockaloe on the Isle of Man.

 

Andy

Edited 8 September , 2019 by stiletto_33853

[Matlock1418]

Without stating the possible obvious re: local units' methods for thiose held in, and recently captured, in France [so please don't criticise on those grounds] - Hopefully just another helpful snippet [we all know how GWF jigsaws get made]

 

A soldier's personal war diary [so obviously unauthorised, but with a strong whiff of 'inside knowledge' given the level of detail later included], that I have in my possession, has entries as follow:

• "BOLLEZEELE MERKEGHEM [Poss. MERCKEGHEM] - 2 Feb 1918 Prisoner of War guard , and
• 3 Feb. Prisoner of War guard"

He was at that date a newly-trained draftee temporarily pausing en-route to the South Wales Borderers (1st Bn.), with which he then served thereafter - so that seems this PoW work was apparently one use of such in-transit soldiers/part of the system at that time [at least at that location]

 

Later with the South wales Borderers (1st Bn.): 

• "18 Apr. A Keep ... 19 prisoners  Took them down to Brigade" - from his Bn./Bn. HQ it would appear

He was a Bn. to Coy. runner [and vice versa I presume] = at the time 1SWB were near FESTUBERT [Route "A" Keep area, as you might well have perceived (Bethune, Map 36b X.29)] - His Bn HQ was also recorded in his diary as having been located at LOISNE CHATEAU on the days before (15-17 April) [location and dates confirmed by the WD] - so that may well be from where he set off ... but Bde. destination for PoWs not recorded unfortunately]

 

Hope it might help.

Matlock

Edited 9 September , 2019 by Matlock1418

[Skipman]

There are documents available on the ICRC POW site (in French and German). There seem have been 13 POW camps in the UK. There may be other information that is useful? Click

 

There were also thousands of German POW's sent to Canada. Their records are more complete, if you can figure out which units guarded prisoners, there may be useful diaries, Click

 

Mike

[Moonraker]

16 minutes ago, Skipman said:

... There seem have been 13 POW camps in the UK...

Graham Mark  in Prisoners of War in British Hands during WWI lists almost 60 "major camps" and many satellite work camps.

 

(The map on the ICRC website mistakenly places one camp at Dorchester-on-Thames in Oxfordshire, whereas it was at Dorchester in Dorset.)

 

Moonraker

Edited 8 September , 2019 by Moonraker

[johnboy]

Going by newspaper reports I have seen I would put the number at 50+ but  I would need to know which were for Alien internees or combatants.I have read that 12 ships were used to hold Prisoners But so far I can only confirm the 3 at Southend as given by Andy and named in newspaper reports. there were others bu unamed by newspaper reports.

it is camps holding men captured that I am interested in at the moment.

Edited 8 September , 2019 by johnboy

[Moonraker]

On 05/09/2019 at 20:09, Moonraker said:

... The book by Graham Mark is Prisoners of War in British Hands during WWI (Postal History Society 2007). As the publisher's name suggests, it contains much information about postal material, but has sections on all the major camps and a list of minor work camps.  Pp172-183 cover "Ships used as places of detention" and lists 14; others may have been used early in the war...

 

29 minutes ago, johnboy said:

... I have read that 12 ships were used to hold Prisoners But so far I can only confirm the 3 at Southend as given by Andy and named in newspaper reports. there were others bu unamed by newspaper reports...

Andania, Solent, off Ryde; Ascania, Gosport, later Solent; Borodino, Hull; Calypso, Hull; Canada, Solent; Lake Manitoba, Gosport, later Solent; Phryne, French-registered ship, used by Britain at Rouen; Scotian, Gosport, later Solent; Urania, Plymouth; Uranium, Solent, later Southend-onSea. Plus Ivernia, Royal Edward, Tunisian, all Southend.

 

Mark's book has illustrations and details of the ships and details of inspections by the protecting power (United States, then Swirtzerland).

 

5 hours ago, johnboy said:

So it is possible not all the guarding duties were carried out by RDF

The Royal Defence Force was not formed until March 1916.

 

Moonraker

Edited 8 September , 2019 by Moonraker

[Skipman]

Again, in French and German,  but may be useful to someone. Clicking on the "13" seems to give more results. For example

 

Prisoner-of-war and Internment camps report: Portsmouth (vessel the Scotian)

 

Mike

[johnboy]

40 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

 

Andania, Solent, off Ryde; Ascania, Gosport, later Solent; Borodino, Hull; Calypso, Hull; Canada, Solent; Lake Manitoba, Gosport, later Solent; Phryne, French-registered ship, used by Britain at Rouen; Scotian, Gosport, later Solent; Urania, Plymouth; Uranium, Solent, later Southend-onSea. Plus Ivernia, Royal Edward, Tunisian, all Southend.

 

Mark's book has illustrations and details of the ships and details of inspections by the protecting power (United States, then Swirtzerland).

 

The Royal Defence Force was not formed until March 1916.

 

Moonraker

Thanks for the names of ships. The locations are mentioned in newspapers but not ship names. Thanks for date of formation of RDC

[fritz]

The book "Detained in England-1914-1920-Eastcote POW Camp Pattishall " by Colin Chapman and Richard Moss may be of interest.  

[johnboy]

31 minutes ago, fritz said:

The book "Detained in England-1914-1920-Eastcote POW Camp Pattishall " by Colin Chapman and Richard Moss may be of interest.  

Thanks Amazon have no stock so will try the publisher

[DavidOwen]

Not widely available in libraries either https://www.worldcat.org/title/detained-in-england-1914-1920-eastcote-pow-camp-pattishall-a-brief-illustrated-history/oclc/824723775&referer=brief_results

[Moonraker]

In another thread, Frogsmile has posted

 

this link

 

See page 28 for details of PoW labour on Wiltshire airfields.

 

Moonraker

[johnboy]

Thanks Moonraker.

[johnboy]

This link for Sussex Camps seems to have a system of

 

Mother Camp and work camps.

 

http://www2.westsussex.gov.uk/learning-resources/LR/sompting_german_prisoner_of_war_camp81bc.pdf?docid=1cb8c60d-4df7-4897-a079-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnboy]

There seems to be a distinct lack of documentation to help with my questions.Especially combatant camps. There is info available on camps for aliens which at this stage is of less interest to me.I thank you all for the info given and I will update if I find anything

[johnboy]

FromLLT

 

 

In April 1918 some 27,000 men were serving in the RDC. Of these, 14,000 were employed at prisoner of war camps.

I assume that they were employed in POW camps from 1916.Still nothing showing for guards whilst prisoners were in transit

[fritz]

Royal ..?.. Corps? 

[jay dubaya]

Maybe it’s worth checking if this book is available through inter-library loan johnboy.

 

J

[johnboy]

2 hours ago, fritz said:

Royal ..?.. Corps? 

Royal Defence Corps

[johnboy]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

Maybe it’s worth checking if this book is available through inter-library loan johnboy.

 

J

Thanks. I have a mobility  problem and the local libary would be difficult for me to get t. I will look around to see if any are available for purchase.