German pow's from capture to repatriation

[helpjpl]

20 minutes ago, Skipman said:

This might be worth a look too. Click

 

Mike

 

Already posted - see #10

 

JP

 

[Skipman]

33 minutes ago, helpjpl said:

 

Already posted - see #10

 

JP

 

 

Apologies.

 

Mike

[Matlock1418]

Believe pow guarded by protection companies of royal defence corps in uk - maybe war diaries if you can find them, or similar, might offer info on camps and perhaps transport etc.

[johnboy]

Thank you Matlock.From what I have now read it seems that the ships had some minor alterations eg portholes blocked with steel plates wher prisoners were held. Soldiers guarding them. No mention of where the guards came from. Were they from a specific regiment? the soldiers on the trains carried rifles and bayonets.Seems the POW's travelled in carriages [not horse boxes]. I have to assume the POW's  were handed over to RDC when landing in UK.As RDC were home based i don't think they had to keep war diaries? But I will try and look.

[sadbrewer]

On 02/09/2019 at 11:38, johnboy said:

Thank you. is there info about how they were taken there?

 A bit from the British Newspaper Archive that gives an insight...from February 1915.

[johnboy]

Thanks. More confirmation that ships were used to hold POW's.

[sadbrewer]

An article in March 1916 says 19 POW camps in Britain.

Edited 5 September , 2019 by sadbrewer

[stiletto_33853]

The Ivernia, Saxonia and Royal Edward were moored of Southend-on-Sea pier, used as POW and German internee ships. No pictures seem to survive although plenty of local newspaper reports and pictures of them either being taken along the pier or of funeral attendee's as they were interred in Sutton Road Cemetery if they passed away.

 

Andy

 

Andy

Edited 5 September , 2019 by stiletto_33853

[johnboy]

Thanks Andy I have read that 9 ships were used in groups of 3 I think I now have the names of 4. I will try and find more about them.

[johnboy]

When the United Kingdom entered World War I in August 1914, Saxonia was requisitioned for government service and taken off her Trieste-Boston route. She made a single voyage as a troopship, then was tied up in England on the River Thames as an accommodation ship for German prisoners of war. In March 1915, she resumed service as a troopship.^[2][5][6]

[stiletto_33853]

3 hours ago, johnboy said:

Soldiers guarding them. No mention of where the guards came from. Were they from a specific regiment? the soldiers on the trains carried rifles and bayonets.

 

I have the picture of one of these soldiers on the Saxonia. He was with the 2nd Surrey Regiment, National Reserve, Number 49, who went on to serve with the 24th Rifle Brigade, being returned home due to his health and the climate. Later placed in the RDC.

 

Andy

 

 

Edited 5 September , 2019 by stiletto_33853

[johnboy]

?Was that when he was RDC?

[stiletto_33853]

No Surrey Regiment National Reservist at that time. Went to india in January 1916 with  24th Rifle Brigade, RDC in 1917.

 

Andy

[johnboy]

7 minutes ago, stiletto_33853 said:

No Surrey Regiment National Reservist at that time. Went to india in January 1916 with  24th Rifle Brigade, RDC in 1917.

 

Andy

So do you think he was guarding POW's at the time? Forget that

Sorry  I think the ship was back on trooping duties then, 

Edited 5 September , 2019 by johnboy

[stiletto_33853]

He Joined the 2nd Surrey Regiment National Reservists on 2/11/14, the ships were certainly off Southend pier at that time. The T.F. battalions of the Rifle Brigade started gathering at Halton in September 1915.

With the ships moored in the Yantlet Creek (main shipping channel) in this area of the Thames they would not have needed huge supervision. The tide runs here at up to 6 knots and several people every year are drowned by walking out to the wrecked Mulberry Harbour and swept away by the tide or caught out by the tide advancing quickly over the mud flats.

Edited 5 September , 2019 by stiletto_33853

[johnboy]

Thanks Andy. Any thoughts who might have guarded them when crossing the Chanel?

[stiletto_33853]

Sorry, I cannot help you there. Know about these ships solely as they were local and the accounts of the POW's arriving and being transported out to these ships from local sources.

 

Andy

[johnboy]

There seems to be little info  on how the system worked.

[sadbrewer]

3 hours ago, johnboy said:

There seems to be little info  on how the system worked.

 

  If you grasp the nettle and sign up for a month on the British Newspaper Archive, there is a lot of information from individual council's discussing the holding of prisoners and also the agricultural work the POW's did and the rates of pay etc...also good for lists of camps in those areas that might be hard to find elsewhere.

[johnboy]

Thanks sabewer. I have access to newspaper via FMP Do the reports you have seen mention regiments? The rates of pay and work are at the end of my quest. The biggest gap is from capture to camp in uk.

[sadbrewer]

Just now, johnboy said:

Thanks sabewer. I have access to newspaper via FMP Do the reports you have seen mention regiments? The rates of pay and work are at the end of my quest. The biggest gap is from capture to camp in uk.

 

   I'll see what I can find about transit...but here's an example of a couple of camps under discussion in the Cheltenham area.

   As to pay one discussion I found , it said the rate was as high as our own workers...3s and 9d per day....also a bit of controversy in that there were complaints that the Camps weren't feeding the prisoners on a morning because the staff couldn't be bothered to get up early enough!!

  The farmers were having to pay the full day rate plus food.

[Moonraker]

See this previous thread and the bibliography in post 21.

 

The book by Graham Mark is Prisoners of War in British Hands during WWI (Postal History Society 2007). As the publisher's name suggests, it contains much information about postal material, but has sections on all the major camps and a list of minor work camps.  Pp172-183 cover "Ships used as places of detention" and lists 14; others may have been used early in the war. Its bibliography lists some 240  items.

 

Major J L Isler of Switzerland (the "protecting power" for PoWs in Britain) visited five Wiltshire working camps  in the autumn of 1917. His reports are on NA file FO 383/ 277. At Codford the camp had been for combatant prisoners up to June 11, when they had been replaced by civilians, comprising 114 Germans, 24 Austrians and 19 Turks. They were employed as carpenters, plumbers and painters and in road-making, being paid from 7d to 10½d an hour and working 52 hours a week. At Lark Hill there were 501 combatant prisoners, including two naval men, 50 of whom were sleeping in tents.  On September 9 a sentry had fired into the PoW compound, wounding six men, four of had gone to hospital; a court of inquiry found that the sentry was mentally deranged and so not accountable; the whole camp guard had been changed. At Fovant, Sub-Lieutenant W T Cruickshank was in charge of 125 army and 16 naval men, with five more under detention for attempted escapes. At Sutton Veny were 200 German soldiers, who complained about the lack of a drying-room – though the camp was to be closed in a fortnight’s time and its inmates moved to another nearby. At Upavon 101 German soldiers and one navy man had a German feldwebel (sergeant) as camp captain. Their camp was 60 yards square and comprised 13 tents, 11 serving as dormitories; the feldwebel and camp interpreter had a tent to themselves, and another was used as an isolation tent and sitting-room. The men did excavations, road repairs and fencing of roads and paths, and were paid 1d, 1½d or 2d an hour (these lower rates presumably being due to the fact that their work was not subject to union regulations, as may have been the case at Codford). They worked 53½ hours a week. The camp was to be closed at the end of October.

 

On September 7, 1917 the working-camp at Bulford, opened about two months before, was inspected. It held 191 civilian prisoners from Knockaloe Camp on the Isle of Man. The majority had families in the United Kingdom and had volunteered to work to earn money. They were housed in 25 army tents, each accommodating eight men, with two marquee tents furnished with dining-tables and benches; one tent served as an infirmary. The  men were employed on painting, plumbing, blacksmith work, carpentry and bricklaying. Unskilled workmen earned 7d an hour, carpenters 10½d, painters 7d to 7½d and bricklayers 10½d. Weekly earnings averaged £1:16:9, each man paid 2s 6d a day for his maintenance, unless wet weather prevented work. Most drew 15s a week to spend at the canteen, though the inspecting officer reported that he had been told that there was gambling in the camp. An inmate could buy a suit for 16s, and second-hand boots for 4s. There were complaints that the dentist visiting from Amesbury charged £4:10:0 for artificial teeth. Nor did the prisoners like the herrings that presumably formed a major part of their meals. They were due to move  in to a hut camp in a few weeks.

 

Moonraker

 

 

Edited 5 September , 2019 by Moonraker

[johnboy]

thanks for that Interesting that they were paid more than a British Infantryman fighting on the front.

[stiletto_33853]

John,

Just a couple of snippets found from local resources.

The Saxonia  held 1800 prisoners, Royal Edward 1400 prisoners and Ivernia 1800 prisoners all soldiers and sailors. They were there from the first day November 1914, it seems like they were guarded by National Reservists with a section of boy scouts  on each of the ships and the pier head, used for signalling purposes by semaphore and operating Wireless. 

The Borough of Southend, together with Rochford Rural District and Shoeburyness were designated as prohibited areas for the residence of Germans, unless they received permits to stay. Some 600 Germans had registered themselves with Police, 183 applied for permits (granted) to stay they rest were put on these ships. However after the first Zeppelin raid 10th May 1915, there was a series of riots in the town with the Germans permitted to stay being placed in a camp in East London, one of the bombs from this Zeppelin very nearly hit one of the ships, not known which one.

 

There is mention of other prison ships moored of the Isle of Wight, in the Solent I would imagine, once again strong tides.

 

Andy

Edited 8 September , 2019 by stiletto_33853

[stiletto_33853]