Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 2 February , 2005 Share Posted 2 February , 2005 Hi All Not sure if anyone can help me with this one. My G Grand Uncle George Andrews (see signature) fought in the Boer war, on his attestation papers first time round he's shown as receiving the Queens South Africa Medal and he appears on the medal roll. I did some checking on the criteria for the KSA and as far as I can see he should have been entitled to that as well, however it's not noted on his papers or on the KSA roll. But when I study the photograph taken of him in 1918/19 (it's on the gallery) he clearly has two ribbons on that to my eye look like the QSA and KSA. I don't know much about these awards, but as some day I'd like to reconstruct a replica group I want to get it right. Is it possible that my Uncle did indeed get a KSA but by some oversight this wasn't recorded, or if the recipient had the QSA already did they not record the KSA or is my eyesight dodgy and am I looking at a QSA and 14-15 ribbon. My G Uncle served with the 2nd Bn Wiltshire right throughout the Boer War. Any help greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 2 February , 2005 Share Posted 2 February , 2005 Eddie Intereting problem you have. The KSA was issued to personnel who were serving in South Africa on or after 1 January 1901 and who would have completed at least 18 months' service prior to 1 June 1902. Any service in South Africa during 1901 or 1902 that did not meet this criteria was recognised by the award of the appropriate date clasp to the Queen's South Africa Medal. The 2nd Wiltshires arrived in South Africa in October 1899 and were there for the duration so if your Great Grand Uncle was with them throughout then he would have certainly qualified for the KSA as well as the QSA. However, to not be recorded on either his attestation papers or the KSA medal roll is unusual. Do his attestation papers (or the QSA medal roll) record the bars awarded for the QSA?. If one is South Africa 1901 then he definitely didn't get a KSA. Is it possible that your man returned home earlier than the rest of the battalion for whatever reason (wounds, illness etc.) Hope this helps Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 2 February , 2005 Share Posted 2 February , 2005 if the recipient had the QSA already did they not record the KSA If he qualified for both medals then he should be recorded on both rolls. My Great Grandfather served throughout the Anglo-Boer War with the 2nd Worcesters who were coincidentaly in the same brigade (12th) as the 2nd Wiltshires. He is recorded on both rolls. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 2 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2005 Hi Steve Thanks for the reply Steve. Hmmm.... I'm not really sure what to think, he definitely met the criteria. I'm at work at the moment (don't tell anyone) so I don't have his papers to hand, but oFf the top of my head as I recall he didn't leave South Africa any earlier than the rest of the regiment. His only illness was a few visits to the "Rosde Cottage" but these are recorded from the time the regiment was in Pembroke Dock and Dublin. As for the bars again off the top of my head I think one was indeed for South Africa 1901. I'll have a check when I get home tonight. Thanks for your help Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 2 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2005 Hi Steve I have my GG Uncle's papers in front of me and he was in South Africa from 29/11/99 to 21/05/03 with no breaks. The clasps to his QSA on the roll are shown as Cape Colony, Orange Free State and Transvaal. On his attestation papers they are shown as the same plus South Africa 1901-2. Here's a close up of the ribbons on his photo; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 2 February , 2005 Share Posted 2 February , 2005 Certainly loolks like the KSA to me. Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 2 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2005 That's what I think too Tim and it's why I can't figure out why there is no record of it anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 3 February , 2005 Share Posted 3 February , 2005 Eddie The clasps to his QSA on the roll are shown as Cape Colony, Orange Free State and Transvaal. On his attestation papers they are shown as the same plus South Africa 1901-2. South Africa 1901 & 1902 are the clasps for the KSA. The fact that they're not mentioned on the QSA Roll suggests he did indeed get the KSA. Why there's no record of it though is very unusual. The close up picture looks like the KSA ribbon too, his length of service is more than adequate, so don't know why it wasn't recorded. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 3 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2005 Hi Steve Thanks very much for taking time over this, I can only guess then that there must have been some kind of clerical error. It does seem unusual, I've a few sets off attestation papers for members of my family and they have always seemed quite meticulous in their recording of detail, I even know when George had a headache in S. Africa. Anyway when I reconstruct this group the KSA is going in. Once again Steve thanks very much and you too Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pte1643 Posted 3 February , 2005 Share Posted 3 February , 2005 I'd have said KSA aswell. If it had been 14-15 Star, would it not have been accompanied by the BWM and VM? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 3 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2005 Hi Mark I thought that the 14 and 14-15 Stars were issued ahead of the BWM & VM, which is why I thought that maybe it was a 14-15 ribbon, although the definition of the stripes doesn't look watered enough just thought I'd run it past everyone. (I seem to use thought a lot ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glosters Posted 3 February , 2005 Share Posted 3 February , 2005 The answer will be on the KSA medal roll. It is not that unusual for details to be incomplete on service papers. But a medal would not be issued if the name wasn't on the roll. Yes, the ribbons for the 14 star were certainly awarded before the star was issued. There is an Army Order (No. 165 of 1918, dated May 1918) called "Wearing of the 1914 star riband." It states that "certain individuals who are not entitled to the award of the 1914 Star are wearing the riband of this decoration." So it is not impossible to see a 14 star ribbon worn without the War/Victory. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pte1643 Posted 3 February , 2005 Share Posted 3 February , 2005 Eddie / Steve Of course. 14 Star issued from 1917. 15 Star from 1918. Mental block there for a mo! I suposse it's because we're so used to seeing them in the past tense, when they've already been issued, where we see them as groups. Rather than from a current perspective, where they're issued when instituted. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 3 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2005 Hi Steve That's were all my problems started, with the KSA roll, I knew that my GG Uncle met all the criteria for a KSA and the photo seemed to show the ribbon, so I thought a trip to the NA to get copies of the QSA and KSA rolls (not easy when you live in the wilds of rural Ireland) and there he wasn't so to speak. Listed on the QSA roll allright but nowhere to be found on the KSA roll !. The date on the Army order is interesting because at the time it was issued May 1918 my GG Uncle was a guest of the Bulgarians and wasn't released until 18 October 1918. Also it was the 14-15 Star that he got not the 14 Star, I'm not sure if the same criteria applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 3 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2005 Mark That was quick, I wasn't exactly sure when the 14-15 Star was issued. I'm still convinced though that the photo shows QSA and KSA ribbons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 3 February , 2005 Share Posted 3 February , 2005 Eddie I'm still convinced from the photo that it's the KSA, like you suggest it doesn't appear 'watered' enough for a Star. I've rechecked my previous statements and want to make a correction, the 2nd Wiltshires didn't arrive in South Africa in October 1899 as previously stated because they didn't leave the UK until 16th December 1899 with the rest of 12th Brigade Your GGuncles date doesn't tie in with this departure but I guess he could have been part of an advance party. I hope you manage to resolve your problem. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 4 February , 2005 Share Posted 4 February , 2005 Eddie The clasps to his QSA on the roll are shown as Cape Colony, Orange Free State and Transvaal. On his attestation papers they are shown as the same plus South Africa 1901-2. South Africa 1901 & 1902 are the clasps for the KSA. ...but they are also clasps for the QSA! Wasn't the KSA only awarded to those who actually took an active part in operations 1901-1902 against the guerrila bands in numerous small skirmishes? If the recipient didn't see any "action" as such, or didn't take part in any operations where there was a "contact" then the KSA wasn't awarded. I note that the QSA has no "battle" clasps awarded. This is what started me thinking on these lines . Service would have been indicated by the "SA 1901" and/or SA 1902" clasps on the QSA (the roll of which, in this particular case, might possibly have been completed prior to 1902- hence the no mention of the date clasps). Eddie, what's the chances that he's wearing the ribbon of a medal he wasn't actually entitled to? Its happened many times for the sake of a photo ! (I also note that the ribbons are of the "pin on" variety, worn in a slightly different place than would be expected). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 4 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2005 First off thanks again to everyone for taking an interest in this. I had a check on the timeline of the The Wardrobe www.thewardrobe.org.uk/main.php3 the very excellent site for the The Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment Museum, according to it an advanced party of the 2nd Willts set off for South Africa sailed on 22/10/99 it doesn't say when they arrived, if my GG Uncle was in this party that's over a months sailing. I don't know what the length of time to sail to S Africa was at that time. Dave your right the roll for the QSA that I looked at was drawn up in 1901 and doesn't include a column for South Africa 1901/1902. I suppose he could have been wearing a ribbon he was not entitled to, I'm not sure though my GG Uncle was a professional soldier, he went on to serve with the Wilts until 1911 before rejoining the Colours again in 1914 with the Connaught Rangers, that close up is taken from a photo posed in 1918/19 I can't see that he would need to 'puff' himself up by awarding himself a medal so long after. Surely someone would have noticed he was wearing a ribbon he wasn't entitled to . My understanding for the award of the KSA was that you simply had to have been in S Africa for 18 months before June 1902, I've not seen any references before to having had to be in action. I think my next move is going to be to get in touch with the curator of the regimental museum and see what he thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 4 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2005 Ok I think I may be on my way to resolving this. As it happens the curator the Regimental Museum has been trying to contact me for the past couple of days but due to a mix in e-mail addresses he was unable to. Anyway I made a query on the website a good while ago as to the availability of pictures of the Battalion Band, because my GG Uncle was in the band. There are quite a few small pictures of the band on the website taken after the Boer war and a few of them are shown wearing medals, if I can identify my GG Uncle in these pictures (and I think I can) then I think I'll know. Watch this space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 7 February , 2005 Share Posted 7 February , 2005 Eddie, I understand the entitlement is as follows. I have not heard of any criteria regarding being in particular actions for the KSA. Kings South Africa Medal The King's South Africa Medal was awarded to all troops who served in South Africa on or after 01 January 1902, and completed 18 months service before 01 June 1902. The medal was not issued alone but always with the Queen's Medal. Bars South Africa 1901: Awarded for service during 1901 towards the required service of 18 months; South Africa 1902: Awarded to those who served during 1902. Queens South Africa Medal In the event that a man did not receive a KSA then these bars were awarded to wear on the QSA. South Africa 1901: Awarded to those not eligible for the King's Medal although they had served at the front between 01 January and 31 December 1901; South Africa 1902: Awarded to those not eligible for the King's Medal although they had served at the front between 01 January and 31 May 1902. If you are able to access the medal rolls for the QSA Medal from the end of the conflict it may assist with your answer. If he received the KSA he would not have been awarded the South Africa 1901 and South Africa 1902 bars with the QSA. This said, given the dates he served there, I can not see how your man would NOT be entitled to a KSA. I had two great uncles who served with the South African Constabulary. They just missed the KSA eligibility dates and were awarded the QSA with Cape Colony, Orange Free State, Transvaal (one of them), South Africa 1901 and South Africa 1902 bars. Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Bosano-Andrews Posted 7 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2005 This said, given the dates he served there, I can not see how your man would NOT be entitled to a KSA. Hi Tim Thanks for the info, that's made things clearer for me. It's a bit of puzzler and as you say given the dates served I don't know how could have missed out on a KSA. I'm hoping the photos I get this Wednesday might help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 February , 2005 Share Posted 7 February , 2005 This said, given the dates he served there, I can not see how your man would NOT be entitled to a KSA. It's a bit of puzzler and as you say given the dates served I don't know how could have missed out on a KSA. ...had a rethink. I believe my interpretation of "engagement" (in a description of the criteria for the award of the KSA) to mean "combat of some sort" was incorrect. However, the recipient had to be "on active service in South Africa" (ie. under the possible threat of action) during the the alloted time. Out of curiousity. Was he serving in Natal during 1901-1902 by any chance? I'm asking this because, as from October 26th 1900, service here wouldn't have classified as "active service in South Africa". Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavinH Posted 7 February , 2005 Share Posted 7 February , 2005 Out of curiousity. Was he serving in Natal during 1901-1902 by any chance? I'm asking this because, as from October 26th 1900, service here wouldn't have classified as "active service in South Africa". I don't think that's correct Dave. I believe that the issue of the 'Natal' clasp ended then, but there were further actions in Natal after this date, and those serving there would still qualify for the Queens South Africa Medal with clasps 'South Africa 1901' and/or 'South Africa 1902'. I have a medal named to a member of the Natal Police with this combination. I think the same is true of service in Rhodesia after 26/10/1900. Regards Gavin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 February , 2005 Share Posted 7 February , 2005 and those serving there would still qualify for the Queens South Africa Medal with clasps 'South Africa 1901' and/or 'South Africa 1902'. Gavin. Exactly my point! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavinH Posted 7 February , 2005 Share Posted 7 February , 2005 Exactly my point! Er..... I'm confusing myself now. Dosen't this mean that service in Natal during 1901-02 was considered 'active service'...... ?! Gavin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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